I have a slither of my thyroid gland left and am adequarly treated (I am told), with Levo. Next Endo' appointment in September, though am bringing it foward because I am so terribly tired/unwell if I attempt to do anything such as leave the house.
My thyroid tests in May/June were looking fine.
My query is that I have low cortisol levels, (scraping the bottom ). My endo suggested Nutri Advanced Adrenal Support which didn't help.
I read today in an article by Dr Childs of glandular meds, (bovine) that he says helped with his cortisol levels.
Anybody tried this product?
Thank you
Jane
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smilingjane
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There are 3 brands that are good- adrenavive, Thorne and Klair labs. All slightly different blend and variety of potencies.
I would recommend you do DATS to establish how much you need.
Hidden has the screen shot of this method and I’m sure will send you. It’s basically a method from STTM book using daily temperature readings to work out how much you need
I can’t say how long it has taken to take effect as I started taking it at the same time as I started NDT.
Many people struggle to get well on thyroid hormone due to low (or high) cortisol levels. Really adrenals should he addressed at the start of thyroid hormone replacement if not before- but y this is not something most mainstream endos or doctors seem to understand.
T3 and cortisol are partners within our cells, so without sufficient cortisol thyroid hormone meds often don’t (work) or the low cortisol causes it to ‘pool’ in the blood. Various different theories but the essence is the same- you need adequate cortisol to get well on thyroid meds.
I get adrenavive from UK and the other brands are available from UK websites.
For more info on how cortisol and thyroid hormone work together I recommend Paul Robinson’s books and website on thyroid and Stop the thyroid madness book and website.
Thanks so much for this info. I do have Pauls books but unfortunately I currently have great difficulty in understanding and keeping the info in my head :(I need an idiots guide. Basically someone telling me in 10 steps what to do. I dont know what DATS is. The best thing will be to print this thread out and get someone to help me through it.
There seems so much to understand. Im seeing my endo in Sept' have you and others out there found endos generally sympathetic and knowledgable about these products?
I’m on private endo/ thyroid specialist number 4 since diagnosis last November and this one seems to understand adrenals and dosing with ACE more than the last 3. But by the time I went to first see him last month I’d already got my dosing sorted so he just said carry on as you are. He’s a functional thyroid doctor . Throughout my journey I have ‘interviewed’ all endos before starting with them to make sure they are progressive and open minded, but I’m not sure what other ones are like
When you say the whole glandular, do you mean that the T3 and T4 etc has been extracted?
There are two kinds of glandular that I'm aware of.
1) There are thyroid glandulars made from the thyroid glands of pigs and cows, which may or may not have had their T4 and T3 content removed.
2) There are adrenal glandulars made from the adrenal glands of pigs and cows, which don't contain T4 and T3 at all, instead they contain adrenaline (also known as epinephrine) and cortisol. Whole-gland adrenal glandulars will contain adrenaline and cortisol. Some people prefer cortex-only adrenal glandulars because they don't contain adrenaline, they just contain cortisol.
Thanks humanbean, thats's interesting. I think I might not want the adrenalin. Have you tried these products in the past? and have you read of others that have had positive and negative experiences.At the moment, (last 3 years,) I have had no appitite at all. Do you think there may be a connection?
I have an annual pancreas scan because I have a slightly dilated bile duct, sorry off topic, jusy thought Id mention.
I took an adrenal glandular product about ten years ago for two weeks. It turned out I didn't need it at all because my cortisol levels were high, not low. I've never taken one since.
I've also never taken any thyroid glandulars. All my experiments have been with Levo, T3, and NDT, alone or in combination.
I lost my appetite at some point in the last few years. Despite this I have still gained weight.
Do you know why you lost your appitite? My situation is that I am repulsed by most food, esp' vegetables, brocoli and greens. Its a really strange situation. I currently have liquid nutrition as shakes, Huel has all the protein etc needed in our diets - according to the packet ... and I through a banana and nuts in the blender to add interest. Its boring though. I can't imagine this for the rest of my life. But what to do :(((
The adrenal gland is made up of the cortex and medulla. The cortex produces steroid hormones including glucocorticoids, mineralocorticoids, and adrenal androgens, and the medulla produces the catecholamines, epinephrine, and norepinephrine.
So you just want the cortex part otherwise you will be consuming other hormones from the medulla that you don’t necessarily want or need.
I’ve been taking it since I stated on thyroid hormone last November as I did a salivary 5 point diurnal cortisol test which revealed very low cortisol. I then began to self treat with ACE. (Adrenal Cortex extract).
It is available in UK- just Google and will come up with suppliers
I don’t have the DATS details to hand but the process is explained in the STTM book - it’s a process of tsking your temps at 3 points during the day, then taking an average daily reading and repeating over a 5 day period I think. Then if you have a deviation of more than a certain amount from average baseline each day it indicates you need to raise ACE dose. You do this method until you get to the right dose for your body. Google it on STTM website- it might detail it there as well as book x
I haven't got my results to hand but my T3 and 4, (as far as I can remember) were in the top quarter of the range and myTSH was something like 0.02, so couldn't get much lower.
I am testing again next month and will pop these results on-line for advice.
My saliva test ( 3 months ago) was just in range in the morning, (as I remember) and off the bottom of the range for the other 3 time slots .
In that case it’s definitely worth checking cortisol - assuming all your nutrients are well topped up? - can you get your GP to organize some adrenal lab work? Synacthen, aldosterone etc.?
I think I have had Synacthen. Is that the one where you have your adrenal glands stimulated with an early am injection? Not sure about the other. I will email my endo and ask what he advises.Thank you
Just found my Synacthen results:Short Synacthen test performed by Professor Pearce in Newcastle on the 13th of March 2023 is normal with a basal value of 243 and a peak of 552
What time was your test? Your baseline is a bit pants if it was early but your adrenals are working from that synacthen 🙂. Be good to see your saliva results if you have them
Thanks again for getting back :I can only find the 9am cortisol blood test taken by a Medichecks nurse. This was in Feb' this year:0.113 - (ref range, 133 -537).
I remember that the saliva results at the 4 stages through the day were below the ref' range on 2 or maybe 3 and the 4th was just inside the ref' range.
OK. So just a short summary and correct me if this isn’t right -
- Adrenals are working but baseline of synacthen was low
- Thyroid is well replaced
- Saliva and blood cortisol levels are low
- Continued symptoms of fatigue
So, if I were in your position I’d supplement ACE. Options are below. Have you ever done CT3M?
According to STTM:
Adrenal Cortex Extract (not whole adrenal gland): On waking 150mg, 100mg at noon, 50mg afternoon, 50mg evening. After 5 days on those doses you can do DATS (Daily Average Temperatures) - Measure BBT 3 times; 3 hrs after waking, 3 hrs after that, 3 hrs after that and add them up to make an average, do this 5 days in a row avoiding ovulation & menstruation. If there is more than 0.2 degrees fluctuation between the temps then Adrenal Cortex Extract needs to be increased. Increase Adrenal Cortex Extract until DATs become stable. If DATs do not ever become stable then Hydrocortisone may be needed. STTM states 25mg/day is a starting dose, broken down as: 10mg on waking, 7.5mg at noon, 5.5mg in afternoon, 2mg before bed. If DATs still won't stabilise then this could indicate an Aldosterone issue.
According to Peatfield:
Adrenal Cortex Extract: Anywhere from 150mg to 600mg in the morning and nothing after midday. He also recommends 20mg of Hydrocortisone for those who are not improved by Adrenal Cortex Extract.
According to Paul Robinson:
Research CT3M (Nb. Many do not find this effective).
Nb. Initially cortisol presence can increase thyroid hormone uptake so much that you may feel over stimulated/strange. Some advise to lower thyroid hormone dosing to let thyroid hormones run down a few days before starting ACE to avoid this.
A further relevent thing I haven't mentioned is that I take low dose Bupreborphine for ReslessLegs which rather complicates matters, as Buprenorphine can interfere with hormones and the HP axis .
That's why I want to see an endo to see what's best to do.
Not sure if Adrenal Cortex might be the right product to take.
I feel it's all to complicated to get to grips with
I am searching for a (possibly functional) new endo. One that is knowledgable about the thyroid cortisol connection.I have P, Rs books but cannot read more than a few lines. Its too complex for my current brain aptitutude!
If you don’t mind my giving you some unsolicited advice, I would be exceptionally wary of functional endos. I have been to so many functionals, they are so expensive and often lead you off into all kinds of directions that just end up in more supplements and fewer foods allowed. I saw one on Harley street for 3 years and she never even found I have adrenal insufficiency 🤦♀️ maybe try the ACE first 🙂 it sounds possible you have low cortisol and need help metabolizing your thyroid hormone better.
A small search suggests that low dose Bupreborphine could be impacting your cortisol for sure. Are you able to wean off it? Does your doctor know you have a thyroid condition? We can’t afford to compromise cortisol levels, it negatively impacts metabolism of thyroid hormone.
Can you ask your doctor for a different medication for restless legs?
I have had sevear full body RLS for 30 years and tried every med available.
Opiods are (currently) a last result.
Although I am looking into a little known about, (as yet) connection between low brain iron and RLS.
In this condition iron has difficulty in getting past the blood brain barrier, and can in some people cause RLS. An MRI scan can show this up but getting a neuro to agree to that may be an issue.
If an MRI shows a brain iron shortfall, some people can be helped with regular iron infusions which would negate the need for RLS meds.
I have an appointment with my neuro in September. Last time I spoke to him re this he said I would need toget my Ferritin down, clearly not taking the blood brain barrier into consideration. (Blood tests don't show any shortfall of iron in the brain, hence the MRI).
My plan is to send studies ahead of my appointment to the department and hope for the best.
Not sure how much you know about RLS but in it's sevearest form, sleep is impossible. The body has to be in constant movement to stop the unbareable pain/sensation.
Suicide rates for those suffering from RLS is disproportionate in society and yet GPs are not clued up on how to help patients, often giving totally inapropriate medication that has made the condition worse for many.
My apologies if you have awareness if this.
I will try the ACE suggestion and hope that helps.
I’m so sorry you are coping with that, it sounds terrible 😖 how horrible.
How long have you had it? I have had something called akathisia before that sounds similar, i got it as a side effect of anti-psychotic medication. It was a very uncomfortable sensation, like an unending urge/impulse to constantly move my limbs, at night I would find myself kicking into my mattress until I fell asleep. If RLS is similar to that then you have my deepest sympathies! 😖☹️ how effective is the Buprenorphine?
I’ve just done the shallowest of research so this might sound naive but have you ever tried LDN instead? LDN is the opposite of Buprenorphine in that it is an opioid blocker but it enhances endorphin production which could bring about the same desired effect and lower interference with your cortisol production.
Akathisia is similar to RLS, main difference being it is impossible to stay in bed or sit with RLS.
Nobody has suggested the LDN. I think I read once though that enhancing endorphin production can cause RLS.
Buprenorphine completely illiminates my RLS and has been a lifesaver It took me two years to find a neuro to prescribe though and my GP needed persasion.
I am going to PM a very knowledgable person on HU that also has reached the position of having to take Bup' for RLS and see what her thoughts are on LDN.
Thank you so much for going to the trouble of researching for me.
If neuro unreceptive you are at liberty to contact Dickson’s pharmacy in Glasgow and get a private prescription sorted under your own steam. It’s about £25/month I believe. Good luck 🙂 xx
I'm the same low cortisol but don't know how to raise it. Dr's don't except the salvia tests we do so we are left with it. Do you feel really exhausted with low blood pressure and pulse? Good luck I be watching what others recommend.
Hi France92My blood pressure is generally just inside the normal from the low.. Pulse is normal and yes I feel exhausted a lot of the time. Bed is my default place!
I really will have to wait untill I have the energy Lucy and HB have been kind enough to post before I make my next move.
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