Picking up on a topic I’ve written about before:
“ Other studies suggest that self-reactive antibodies can help clear dying cells and other debris from the body, and it is possible that they may play a role in watching for cancer cells.”
Autoimmune diseases may be side effect of a str... - Thyroid UK
Autoimmune diseases may be side effect of a strong immune system - New Scientist
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ThyroidLadyLondon
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Thank you. That is worth reading.
Very definitely questions the "it boosts your immune system" mantra that so many supplement sellers spread across everything.
I rather hope we can find some way of taming it so it doesn't mess so many up - but still manages to save us in those other ways.
a much bigger question is - why, if autoimmunity supposedly distroys your own indigenous tissue, do people with self-antigen antibodies live longer. It is literally illogical.
Maybe, but maybe not!
One of things I keep saying is that, in my understanding, the antibodies don't destroy our tissue. They just identify fragments for cleaning up operations.
It is macrophages and lymphocytes which do the actual attack.
Now I might be failing to appreciate the details (very likely!), but having lots of antibodies might help keep our systems clear of the detritus - which is a positive thing.
If we are assessing autoimmune status by antibody counts, it could be that high numbers indicate effective operations.
(Yes - in some ways this just pushes the question onto other parts of the immune system.)
but if the macrophages are involved in the removal of the detritus, as you say, it needs to be acknowledges that dead cells are part of the normal cycle of cell renewal of internal organs. And if that is the case, what if that renewals happens non-uniformly, but in burst. High antibody count would therefore indicate high level of regenerative activity and low antibody count a low level of regenerative activity. The fact that literally everyone has auto-antibodies is indicative of everyone being subject to this process, hence the ‘normal’ range that labs give.
That's interesting! Never thought of that before.
Now I might be failing to appreciate the details (very likely!), but having lots of antibodies might help keep our systems clear of the detritus - which is a positive thing.
Which is why I question this obsession people have with trying to reduce their antibody levels. Antibodies have a job to do, that's why they're there. If they go, who will do that job? And what effect will it have on us if it's not done?
Yep!
It could be that antibody levels do (at least to some extent) reflect the level of autoimmune activity. In which case higher levels might indicate greater rate of destruction. But the antibodies themselves should not be seen as a target of any sort.
After all, it is seems pretty clear that once the antibody levels rise, they stay elevated for a long time - even when the original cause has subsided.
The only thyroid antibodies which seem important in themselves are the TSH-receptor antibodies. And that obviously because of their effects on the TSH-receptors.
the thing is - we are not being very clear about the role of antobodies and what they do. And I don’t mean just us in this forum, I mean the medical profession as well. They are either marking enzymes/proteins for destruction/preventing them from reacting in an ‘attack’ by the immune system, or they are marking them as part of cell regeneration or another process aimed at salvaging stressed/damaged cells. And if this process is prolific, as marked by high level of self-antigen antibodies, then are we seeing a destructive attack (view presented by most doctors) or a regenerative/protective process is taking place? It does not make sense that it is both. And if it is indeed a regenerative process, then something else is in play to cause the diffuse stress/damage process. The general view I have had from most doctors is ‘don’t worry about antibody levels’ they show an ‘attack’ on your thyroid but we don’t know why and they fluctuate up and down. But we will diagnose you with Hashimotos on the day that you have antibodies above normal, but not on the day that they are within normal lab ranges. And even then it doesn’t matter because the treatment is the same anyway. This is pretty poor….
After all, it is seems pretty clear that once the antibody levels rise, they stay elevated for a long time - even when the original cause has subsided.The only thyroid antibodies which seem important in themselves are the TSH-receptor antibodies. And that obviously because of their effects on the TSH-receptors.
I can’t agree with the above I’m afraid. First of all - the antibody level go up and down very substantially - I have seen this in my own blood tests.
And secondly why would one process be more important than another? I’m not sure you can make such a judgement call - it’s like saying the right eyelid is more important than the left pinky finger. All these processes have a role to play although I’m not sure there’s a great deal of clarity at present on each one from the mainstream medical establishment.
The importance is because they fit the TSH-receptor and directly stimulate or block that. Therefore they affect the release of thyroid hormone as in Graves disease in the context of which they were originally referred to as LATS (long-acting thyroid stimulator) - before they were identified as antibodies.
I agree! It has always seemed contradictory that my immune system is hammering me daily but I should take supplements like echinacea to 'boost' it. Why on earth would I want to do that? I want it to calm down.
I think we need to be extremely careful with terms like ‘boosting’ and ‘calming’ when we talk about the work of the immune system. It is a complex process that reacts to specific triggers and processes in the body. It’s like talking about boosting blood circulation - your blood is already circulating. You do physically intense activity, heart rate increases blood flows faster, you fall asleep it circulates slower. It doesn’t get ‘more curculatey’. The immune system is incredibly complex, what exactly are you ‘boosting’ if you eat something or do something with your body. If an answer cannot be explicitly stated, it is hokum.
It's interesting because I'm on a certain medical pathway and being told I'll possibly have an option to suppress mine, which I'm seriously considering. So perhaps suppressing and or augmenting it's functions might be better terms. I completely agree that the immune system is incredibly complex, one does get the feeling that even those working in the field don't understand it fully themselves. We do get terms like strong and weak spoken about both interchangeably and separately in ways that don't always make sense.
if this is something being offered to you to treat a thyroid issue - it’s not going to help, I’m sorry to say.
It isn't for thyroid. That has been dismissed many times.
Anecdotally my mum had Rheumatoid Arthritis and her sister,my aunt had MS, both autoimmune diseases. Both lived well into their 90's and died of natural causes. Neither ever got cancer.
Matt Lucas of Bake Off fame who has alopecia totalis and has done since he was a kid, said doctors told him he has a reduced risk of getting cancer due his overactive immune system. Not sure how much of a consolation prize it is however.
Makes a lot of sense. I have a very strong immune system but am hypothyroid (for 15+ years), so I don't get colds and the last time I caught the flu was nearly 50 years ago, Covid made me sick for 5 a few days (I've not been vaccinated nor had the flu vaccine) and when I pick up a viral infection, they rarely last more than a few days (I'm nearly 78). And, I note than whenI do catch an infection it's normally when I'm 'run down' or stressed (stress triggers the HPA Axis of which the Thyroid is a part). I also don't look my age by about 10-15 yrs and I still have relatively flexible skin.
Yes Mlinde. You are who I mean in my post. This is interesting. I feel I may be like you. (Touch wood). I very rarely get illnesses of viral or bacterial origin. The odd cold, which does bowl me over (perhaps an over reaction of immune system) but I think it’s the thyroid issues contribute to that. I do not overtly react to vaccines. Of course no idea if something on a deeper level might be not so good on that one. I often feel guilty reading other people’s posts when they suffer so much from non-thyroid illnesses as well as all the usual thyroid stuff we have to deal with.
"Yes Mlinde. You are who I mean in my post."
Hi arTistapple, I'm not sure what this means, are you referring to an earlier post or what? But I'm pretty sure it's a genetic, that is, inherited thing as my mother and indeed all her 5 sisters lived long and largely healthy lives (2 of the 4 boys didn't fair so well unfortunately). All the girls lived into their 80s and 90s. Until I had a heart attack in 2012, aside from childhood infections, I had never been really sick my entire life and I think the heart issue might be connected to my NHS mistreatment for my thyroid.
Mlinde somehow the comments are a bit out of order. Aha, we might even have even more in common than I originally thought. Yes it’s connected with my post/answer to the paper. I was saying that for this phenomenon (autoimmunity making our longer term survival improved) there would have to be other observable changes in its evolution. Statistically we could/should find otherwise ‘healthy’ hypothyroids, genetically changed along the way. I don’t know how to explain it better. I too had a heart attack (2002) due to my hypothyroidism being mistreated. No-one believed me and my symptoms. About two years before the heart attack I was pretty fit, although exhausted and ‘aquired’ angina. I could still lift more weights than the men at the gym. Until fairly recently doctors had to double check my DOB. However I feel about 10 to 15 years older than my age at the moment! Interesting it looks like all the girls who have benefitted in your family from the genetic inheritance.
This is very interesting and does answer (or partially answer) some questions I think about from time to time. It’s along the lines of “Saving the Planet”. I keep thinking how wrong that phrase is. The Planet will save itself. ‘The Gaia Principle’ seems to cover this explanation very well and relatively simply. It’s the saving of the human race that is the concern for us. The Planet will look after itself without bothering with any of us (apart from killing us in its process, is my view). We should off course do anything we can to help the planet avoid killing us, if possible.
This new view - Thank you ThyroidLadyLondon, is remarkably similar in that, it’s something we humans have (as yet/if ever) very little power to change, it’s something already set in motion. Can’t say from what source - that’s another question.
However it does relate to the ‘starvation genetic’ aspect of development of hypothyroidism somewhat; put forward by certain scientists. The definitive slowdown of metabolism to deal with famine, purely for survival.
It would be interesting to know, statistically, how many people suffering from hypothyroidism (including those brought on from the effects of hyperthyroidism and ‘treated’) might be open to illnesses not related to auto immune. Statistically there should be good information there too. It’s often listed that hypothyroidism sufferers experience more ‘non thyroid’ illnesses than the general population. However if this main theory/observation is correct there should/could be a corresponding significant number who are not more prone to day to day illnesses, to give the theory a more full expression of its evolution.
I hope I have explained this. I always have to be open to having totally misunderstood what’s going on!
Yes, Gaea will 'heal' the planet but without us along for the ride. Life will continue but:
“…we have the certainty that matter remains eternally the same in all its transformations, that none of its attributes can ever be lost, and therefore, also, that with the same iron necessity that it will exterminate on the earth its highest creation, the thinking mind, it must somewhere else and at another time again produce it”. —
Frederick Engels, from the introduction to ‘The Dialectics of Nature’, 1883.
Ah Thank you. That must be why James Lovelock gave his experiments the name, The Gaia Principle.
Gaea is an interesting concept and actually an ancient one and the Female Principle:
‘And these things did sing the Muses, nine daughters begotten of Zeus:
‘Verily, at first Chaos came to be,
and next the wide-bosomed Gaea …
And dim Tartarus, in the depths of wide-pathed Earth,
and Eros, fairest among the deathless gods…
From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Nyx,
And of Nyx were born Acher and Hemera.’ - Hesiod, Theogony
The idea that life itself is intimately interconnected with basic physical processes, chemistry, geology, physics, seems self-evident to me, thus carbon dioxide gets locked up in rocks which in turn makes it possible for oxygen to sustain complex life, the entire thing a complex dance that maintains homeostasis and industrial capitalism destroys it all in pursuit of short term gain for the few.
I am not familiar with the truly ancient stuff but I can see the connection. Lovelock’s book scared the wits out of me when I read it initially but when you see the truth, you know it. The book, perhaps unfortunately does it without the drama of the ancients but no loss to the message.
Yes, Lovelock, ran into a lot of flack over his ideas, the principle objection being, was the idea (wrongly in my opinion) that Gaea was somehow a 'conscious mind', that the Earth was alive, a live organism in its own right, planetary consciousness but I don't think it's necessary, it can all be explained through the application of known physical principles of matter (bless Engels heart!) it's just so damn complex but just look at quantum physics and we think the Earth is complicated!
Why scared? The Earth and near space is a single, interactive system, with everything connected to everything else! And the human being too is an interconnected system, brain and body are one thing, this is why dealing with the Thyroid as if it exists in isolation is so wrong and why modern medicine gets its all so wrong, the Thyroid is part of a homeostatic mechanism which works by interacting with with other balancing mechanisms, the pituitary, the hypothalmus, the addrenals, knock one out and it knocks out the others. See how the thyroid affects the heart, the immune system, digestion, the brain, a complicated dance of many parts. No wonder doctors don't want to get caught up in it, it means actually thinking instead of dishing out pills.
Only initially scared. Understanding changes that. Something about our arrogance as the top species. Ha. It’s where many people are at. Again it’s got a lot to do with the mess we are in. Honestly I wonder at the intelligence of many doctors. For many years doctors have been selected because their brains can contain facts, however we require our doctors also to think. There is a mismatch somewhere.
Yes, and it's happened in a single generation and mostly the power of money to shape the nature of medicine today. I know it's a big cliche but Big Pharma is a reality, that it spends more on advertising and marketing than it does on research is a reality, that government bodies like the MHRA instead of being watchdogs have become facillitators for the pharmaceutical corporations. The whole thing is a perversion.
Mlinde I have PMd you with a question. No pressure!
I'm a hypothyroid sufferer and have woken up a tad tired so am struggling to understand which other illnesses not related to auto immune that you are pointing to. Thanks
Yes. It’s difficult when we get a diagnosis of thyroid issues to wonder where they start and finish. Viral and bacterial conditions are the first that come to mind. Colds, Flu, pneumonia etc. I would say thyroid issues make even a cold tip the scales!
A family member is on immunosuppressant treatment following a reaction, thought to be due to a jab or subsequent COVID-19 infection, combined with a preexisting autoimmune condition. The autoimmune condition, which caused much discomfort for over a decade, is no longer mentioned. There has been a warning of increased cancer risk, but most would opt for a probable decade of life rather than extinction within a few weeks.
Stay safe!
This is what they're offering me, I'm debating it but a better quality of life for a few years sounds nice frankly.
I've seen users of overseas practitioners discuss this sort of "pact with the Devil" with regard to thyroid hormones. I cannot claim that any treatment combination I've tried has restored my health, but do acknowledge that they've kept me alive, and have wondered whether the subclinical stages conferred a competitive advantage to my family members, even though they died in their 40s and 50s for several generations (while members of my my other family line reached their 80s and 90s). With the current main family health issue, vasculitis would've caused recurrent bouts of pneumonia (which they initially thought was due to a mystery virus), so cleaning the blood of antibodies and suppressing the autoimmune attack was what the current science/art decrees, rather than horse wormer, vitamin D, an AIP diet, "bioresonance" or other hocus pocus offered by grifters.
given the horrendously low level of understanding of self antigen antibodies, getting rid of them from the body seems like a highly highly experimental and uncertain treatment option.
What would be certain is death within a few weeks, without the treatment.
not sure I follow. Death from what? Antobodies?
Pneumonia, due to vasculitis. Other patients suffered end stage kidney disease.
There are different parts of the immune system, and they can be unbalanced - one part can be dominant and another to weak (or both overactive). They are explained here:
There are different opinions to be found on the net, though, about which supplements work for which dominance.
I actually think if the balance is off one way or the other then it works against you in both ways!I have Ulcerative colitis and definitely been told an overactive immune response causes the problems!
I was diagnosed at 17yrs old and had yrs of very active chronic disease over the years..having an overactive immune response doesn't always protect you in fact it actually can kill you as well!
Sepsis is a classic example of that!
At the same time an underactive immune system also can kill you through catching infections that your body can't fight off!
In the end if there isn't a balance either way there isn't a positive outcome!
I think the big question is what causes our immune system to be out of tune..is it diet stress environmental issues that cause these major problems on both sides..most likely all of these factors play a part!
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