How about this study on desiccated bovine drug Armour?!
About the trustworthiness of health care profes... - Thyroid UK
About the trustworthiness of health care professionals...
49 Replies
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"The impact of addition of T3 is minimal in managing hypothyroidism. According to T et al. (2020), in a study with elderly patients, issues with persistent neurocognitive dysfunction would benefit from the addition of T 3 at a dose of 125 mcg, with a simultaneous decrease in the T 4 dose of 50 mcg in comparison to younger patients ages 29-44. The study failed to find any benefits of partial T 3 substitution while the doses of T 4 was sufficient to reestablish TSH levels to normal levels (T et al., 2020). The study concluded that routine use of T 3 cannot be recommended, but it can be used on elderly patients with lingering confusion, depression, or slow mentation along with the adequate doses of T 4 (T et al., 2020)."
i REALLY hope that is a typo 
If not, lets see if we can all get prescribed 125mcg T3 for being "old ,and bit doddery of brain"
..... not finished reading yet , but so far, "0 out of 10" for being able to differentiate between a cow and a pig .
"In contrast, desiccated thyroid resulted in a T3 peak about 2 to 5 hours after administration that related to thyrotoxic symptoms in some patients. A single daily dose of levothyroxine develops in stable blood levels of T4 and T3 throughout the day" WRONG.
Then after that brilliant start .....it's all downhill..... and they seem to have accidentally forgotten to check on the progress (or not ) of giving 25mcg Levo to the 42 yrs old subject they were allegedly discussing in the first place.
STUDENT : "professor ... how can i get good marks on my Graduate Degree ?"
PROF : "well if you would just throw together a little study slagging off NDT for me , that would do nicely "
in reply to tattybogle
Should probably be 12.5 mcg, right?!I guess this study was paid for by levo manufacturers...
tattybogle in reply to
yes i assume so., probably should read 12.5
If garbage like this gets you a degree to be a nurse practitioner .. then i'm a bit scared.
in reply to tattybogle
I could not help thinking about the person who joined the other day claiming to be a nurse...to tell us that you have to trust doctors because they went to med school and we didn´t....
HowNowWhatNow in reply to
If you have read more than a few studies on the thyroid and have wrestled (as a figure of speech) with your GP to try to ask for T3, you’ve read more on the subject and interrogated the issues more fully than they did in their degree, from what we hear about what is included in a medical degree.
Alanna012 in reply to
Oh yes, have me a laugh that one.
jgelliss in reply to
Going to Med schools doesn't make one a good Dr . But Dr's that are good listeners and think out of the *Box* do have potentials to be good Dr's.
annca1 in reply to
Yeh, right!
If not, lets see if we can all get prescribed 125mcg T3 for being "old ,and bit doddery of brain"
^^^^^ Gave me my first laugh of the day. Bravo on your witty humour 👏
Side note wish we had a bovine ndt on the market.
in reply to Imaaan
Imaan,
There are several excellent bovine glandulars on the market. The difference between glandulars and NDT is that glandulars do not have a declared hormone content so are sold as supplements. But many are very happy with them.
Imaaan in reply to
Im already aware but I do appreciate you letting me know. I'm extremely sensitive to thyroid meds especially where my heart is concerned therefore prefer standardized and regulated ndt which is only currently sourced from porcine. It's a shame really but beggars cant be choosers I suppose.
in reply to Imaaan
What about Thyro-Gold?
Imaaan in reply to
I've heard good things about it but they dont have low dosages. I recently spoke to a member on another group who uses Thyrovanz so I may purchase the lowest dosage and take it along with my current meds to see if it makes a difference.
in reply to Imaaan
There is also Thyroid by Allergy Research Group. It has very good reviews. Each capsules contains 40 mg of thyroid. But I think Thyrovanz even has a 25 mg capsule?
Imaaan in reply to
I like Allergy Research Group because I've purchased their 125mg ox bile and it did wonders for my digestion but I prefer the 25mg amount in Thyrovanz. What brand of ndt are you on?
Thnxs for mentioning both brands
in reply to Imaaan
I´m on Thyroid-S.
Thanks for the tip about ox bile. I think Allergy Research is a great brand and have used other products.
Imaaan in reply to
Thnxs for letting me know
in reply to Imaaan
Can I ask which symptoms you had of bad digestion that ox bile helped with?
Imaaan in reply to
It was distension. It was so bad that I struggled with breathing properly after eating and it would last a few hours. My family doctor kept on recommending ox bile and finally I took the plunge. When I took 2 pills of 125mg it was a game changer for me. The bloating didnt completely go away but it has reduced more than half and it doesn't last as long. Funnily enough she mentioned that ox bile helps in the conversion of free t4 to t3.
in reply to Imaaan
Interesting!
diogenesRemembering
Well, it doesn't help their case if they can't even spell levothyroxine in the title.
in reply to diogenes
Definitely not!😄
helvellaAdministratorThyroid UK
This would appear to be part of studying to become a nurse.
I'd like to see how it was marked/assessed.
The wording "used on" is distasteful. Shouldn't it be "for (the benefit of)"?
I have found a little more about this paper:
Levothryoxine Versus Dessicated Bovine Thyroid (Armour Thyroid) Treatment in Hypothyroidism
Christine Zaki
Date of Award
Spring 5-10-2020
Document Type
Independent Study
Degree Name
Master of Science in Nursing (MSN)
Department
Nursing
Program Affiliation
Family Nurse Practitioner (FNP)
commons.und.edu/nurs-capsto...
Also:
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in reply to helvella
So this paper allowed her to become a nurse…?
As I read it, quite possibly wrongly, she was aiming to become not just a nurse (which I think she already was) but a nurse practitioner. Difficult to compare UK and US systems and the meanings of job titles.
in reply to helvella
After years of watching ER and Grey`s anatomy, I think a NP in the US can actually prescribe some drugs, possibly thyroid hormone…? Not sure how that compares to the UK and rest of Europe.
You´re right, I missed that the first time around! And I wonder if this is a diagnostic criterion:She was well groomed and appropriately dressed for the weather
Possibly meaning that if you don´t look like h--l then nothing is wrong with your thyroid?!
tattybogle in reply to
I found " she was looking a little unkempt" on my GP's notes ...... goes without saying this was when was 'adequately treated with Levo' ... not .
in reply to tattybogle
That´s horrible...are GPs or endos trained to make psychological observations like that?!
greygoose in reply to
More to the point, are they trained as fashion advisors? I think not, judging by some of their outfits. I once walked into my doctor's surgery and found him in shorts and teeshirt! He was a corpulant man, in his 60s, with a straggly beard. Not a pretty site!
But, I have to say, this paper was very badly written. I was wondering if the author had English as a second language. 0/10 for prepositions!
Well Einstein didn’t look “kempt”, so what does that tell us?
allegedly .. i've always looked 'unkempt'.. hence being dubbed a 'Tattybogle' at the age of 3 months . 'neat and tidy' people frighten me
🤣🤣
Am sorry. Different if you were having / had just had a psychotic episode in which case it .. might be relevant?
Actually .. i was very glad of the observation skills of this particular (elderly female) GP.... i did look 'rough', and was feeling terrible ( hence my 'worse than usual' lack of attention to my personal appearance) ..... I'd been in to see other GP's a couple of times and had consequently been sent for kidney scan , CT scan with contrast, endoscopy , and colonoscopy .. to rule out lots of things including cancer as a cause for my symptoms of ?kidney and bladder pain and weight loss.
This 'old skool' GP LOOKED AT ME... an said "hold your hands out (slight tremor) .. has anybody checked your thyroid bloods yet ?.... no .. well that really should have been done first . i'll do it now .... i think you're overmedicated"
Sure enough .. a reduction from the 150mcg i'd been on for the 15 yrs before menopause, to 125mcg, improved all my symptoms within a few short weeks .
If i'd seen her first, we would have saved the NHS God knows how much money ... i dread to think what that lot of investigations cost them... or how come the two previous GP's didn't even think to run a TFT .. the last one they had on record was nearly a year previous .. about 10 months previous i think ?
But this woman clearly had an understanding of the subtle physical symptoms of overmedication.. while the previous 2 clearly had no concept ... and being 'more than usually unkempt' was one of the clues .... so that was one comment i found on my notes that didn't upset me.. i was pleased she'd taken the time to observe and report what she saw... sadly she was only part time ,and has now retired... or i would have chosen to see her in preference to the one i've got now.
Oh I see.
Thank you for explaining.
Is it possible to be over medicated and not euthyroid?I am having kidney / liver pains and have lost weight in recent weeks but my TSH (which I’ll post in another message) has been bouncing around between 0 and 4.5 over the last few months.
Is it possible to be over medicated and not euthyroid?
I don't quite understand what you're asking there ..... but the time i was overmedicated , my TSH WAS slightly lower than my usual.. my 'usual' was always 0.04 - 0.2 ish and i never felt overmedicated at that level,,, but on this occasion it was 0.018 .
My fT4 is not such a reliable indicator.. my 'usual' is ... 'all over the place' ..... anywhere between 60% and 240%... it's currently 142% and i'm not overmedicated .. but on that occasion .. yes it was over range at 19.9 [8 -18]
I had bladder symptoms that felt a a bit like having cystitis but without the burning if that makes sense . my bladder was not 'happy and relaxed' it felt permanently tense.. and the pain i had was a bit like kidney stones might cause ... i dip test found blood and some calcium (oxalate ?) crystals in urine , but an ultrasound of kidneys showed nothing unusual. This tense /overactive bladder and ? kidney pain did seem to be a personal sign of overmedication for me... it had been there for months and months and resolved completely within a few weeks of reducing dose .
The 'hold your hands out in front of you' test is pretty reliable for spotting overmedication in most people..... arms out in front, palms down.... look for very slight tremor in fingers. (balancing a sheet of paper on the back of the hand can make it easier to see)
in reply to tattybogle
That is how doctors used to diagnose thyroid disease and adjust treatment...going by symptoms. There are still a few of them out there, still practising, and they can tell a lot by just looking at your skin, teeth, hair, nails, eyes, distribution of body fat...to them, puffiness is a sign of low thyroid. Before I was diagnosed, several doctors told me my face was puffy becaise I was eating too much salt (no idea how they knew that because they never ordered any tests) and that was making me retain fluid. Of course, puffiness and fluid retention are signs of hypothyroidism which they all missed because they don´t know enough about symptoms, they just look at your TSH and think it tells them everything.
tattybogle in reply to
yes , even though i hadn't put any noticeable amount of weight on anywhere else at diagnosis .... i had developed a 'puffy' face , particularly the eyes .. and the bridge of my nose went rather lumpy . Both of which resolve quite quickly when i'm on enough hormone, and both come back quite quickly when i'm not.
Also had 'slowed return of ankle reflex'..... another old and largely forgotten observational test for thyroid hormone status.
And the "pie crust" tongue ( scalloped appearance from 'puffy' tongue resting on teeth)
shocking
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