Hashimotos sufferers

[Cindy8atCrystalP]

Hashimotos sufferers

I started taking selenium because this helps damp down an over zealous immune system. Taking levothyroxine is just tackling the symptoms and not the cause, and I do feel it has made a difference.

[greygoose]

I thought selenium boosted the immune system, not dampen it down.

Are you referring to the idea that selenium reduces antibody levels? If so, that won't reduce the severity of Hashi's. Antibodies are the result of the disease, not the cause. You could - in theory - get rid of the antibodies completely, but you'd still have Hashi's.

[TSH110 in reply to greygoose]

This article seems to point to some improvements even in Hashimotos. I knew it was often beneficial for Graves ophthalmology which afflicts some of those with atropic autoimmune thyroiditis which can be mistaken for hashis.

I am wary of taking it but do have some in small amounts for a short duration as I believe I have TED. I was also eating 3 Brazil nuts a day but can’t find any organic ones at the mo.

I know it is not a good idea to take it as supplements for long periods although it has been shown to be helpful for some of those with Graves’ disease/TED

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[greygoose in reply to TSH110]

Thank you for the link. Haven't read it all - too heavy for this time on a Monday morning! - just glanced through it.

Selenium supplementation in patients with Hashimoto's thyroiditis and reduced intake of this micronutrient may be useful

But, useful in what way? Does it actually say?

Even so, it does say it's only helpful if you need it, like most nutrients. More is never better.

[TSH110 in reply to greygoose]

Less antibodies better scans and better quality of life I think were given as the positives. I think it’s only a certain percentage of sufferers that get any benefit and it has to be more than 100mu (? Don’t quote me on the units I could be wrong with that) a day.

I agree tho it’s dicey cos the parameters between deficient and toxic are pretty narrow, so it’s playing with fire. Apparently brazil nuts appear to be perfectly safe and effective so that’s probably the best option for a non monitored attempt to get selenium optimal.

One other study I just glanced mentions there seems to be a relationship between selenium/thyroid function and covid 19 and that giving selenium in severe cases of covid appears to help.

[greygoose in reply to TSH110]

I still can't fathom the benefit of reducing antibodies. They have a job to do and they do it, end of.

As for COVID, if selenium helps that, surely that would indicate that it boosts the immune system, rather than anything else.

[TSH110 in reply to greygoose]

Not sure because the problem with serious covid is the immune system going into overdrive and causing cytokine storms so I presume it reduces the overreaction that’s no longer helpful in fighting it but is in itself life threatening. It must surely reduce the autoimmune response. Give it is not really a helpful thing with thyroid disorder, but happens because something has gone seriously wrong with the immune response, where the body is attacking its own tissue to deleterious result, I’d have thought trying to slow or halt it might be beneficial, although one study says the selenium only works for a limited time before becoming less and less effective. I’d think it might be really good at early onset of thyroid disorder but only a case of staving off the inevitable in advanced cases. Just not feeling so dire might have it’s merits I suppose. It does seem to be well worth trying for TED. No doubt in time we will know a lot more about it’s merits or otherwise. But it’s a gamble to start meddling with it with no proper monitoring.

[greygoose in reply to TSH110]

Well, I have Hashi's, but was only diagnosed when my thyroid was all but dead. I did try selenium, as I try most things, but it made me feel much worse. It did not agree with me at all.

[TSH110 in reply to greygoose]

That’s interesting, it would seem to bare out the observation that it will have little effect with advanced disease. Did you hallucinate? I though people were following me all the time but I sort of knew it was a crazy idea like my brain was fracturing into bits that didnt communicate properly anymore. One minute I’d be shouting and yelling the next crying and then I’d be calm and wonder what all that was about…and off I’d go again. It wasn’t very nice. Tattybogke has verified you were right in thinking it stimulates the immune system & I was mistaken in my interpretation that It subdued the immune system. Apols there

[radd in reply to greygoose]

gg

'I still can't fathom the benefit of reducing antibodies. They have a job to do and they do it, end of'. We've been all through this before but I’ll try again 🤣.

TSH110 and tattybogle

A simplistic view would be;

Antibodies (immunoglobulins) are good as protect us from antigens (viruses, bacteria, fungi, parasites, etc) and are produced by WBC called B cells (B lymphocytes).

Auto-antibodies are bad because (for whatever reason) they are the result of a WBC (lymphocyte) attack on ones own self, ie thyroid gland.

The confusion comes about because (with the exception of some research/medical articles) thyroid antibodies are commonly known as such, and not correctly as thyroid auto-antibodies.

The aim is to reduce thyroid (auto) antibodies because by doing so signifies the reduction in attacking lymphocytes on ones own thyroid tissue, (ie less thyroid antibodies, less Hashi attacks).

Now remember antibodies by their very nature equals inflammation, and by lessening Hashi attacks so reduces inflammation and that highly alert auto-immune system calms reducing further auto-antibody production, (ie less Hashi attacks, less thyroid antibodies and possibly less other auto-antibodies being instigated by the highly alert auto-immune system).

Hashi is common in the presence of RA, PA, etc, because auto-antibodies are known to work in clusters and by reducing this inflammation we reduce the risk of further damage/dysfunction of other glands, organs, systems by other auto-antibodies such as RF (rheumatoid factor), ANA’a (anti-nuclear antibodies), APCA (anti-parietal cell antibodies), etc.

However, the confusion is further compounded by systemic auto-antibodies not causing direct tissue injury but an overall negative immune response affecting multiple organs/systems or causing non-specific symptoms such as joint pain, fatigue, allergies, etc.

And then there are some people living healthily with elevated auto-antibodies, and now research showing auto-antibodies able to work along-side the good antibodies in situations when the body is faced with a disease threat that good antibodies cannot manage.

So selenium up regulating antibodies (immune system) but down regulating auto-antibodies (auto-immune system), and given the systemic inflammation thyroid (auto) antibodies risk causing it is better to try reducing through ensuring adequate selenium levels, adopting gluten free diet, etc. Also supplementing Vit D which is another huge immune modulator.

[greygoose in reply to radd]

Yes, we have been through all this before, and I told you I just don't buy it. So, thank you so much for trying again, but I'm not even going to read it.

[radd in reply to greygoose]

Oh, don't be so narrow minded gg. I bet you do! 😊

[Capella1 in reply to greygoose]

why?

[greygoose in reply to Capella1]

Why what?

[Capella1 in reply to radd]

yes, sum autoantibodys cause other disease like Lupus. great explaning Radd

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK]

When selenium is mentioned, I often link to this USA site - the Office of Dietary Supplements fact sheet:

ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/S...

Any perceived benefits of selenium could even have nothing to do with the thyroid! (Obviously, if there is insufficient for the thyroid-related enzymes, supplementing would have an effect on thyroid issues.)

Selenium, which is nutritionally essential for humans, is a constituent of more than two dozen selenoproteins that play critical roles in reproduction, thyroid hormone metabolism, DNA synthesis, and protection from oxidative damage and infection

One thing I'll note. Not many years ago, everyone seemed to be promoting 400 micrograms of selenium a day. Which I often suggested was too much - at least for long-term use. Thankfully, we now see 200 as the usual maximum. And even that might be more than is needed.

[TSH110 in reply to helvella]

Yeah that is the problem it’s too easy to overdo it. Except with brazil nuts. I suppose there must be a cut off mechanism with those but why it works for them and not tablets is anyones guess. I wonder if the selenium is related to allergy to them…..seems not it’s other things in them - quite an interesting read:

foodallergytest.co.uk/produ...

[CatsofCatford]

Hello there Cindy, I have taken Selenium on and off (but mostly on) since first being diagnosed as it was recommended by Izabella Wentz. I find I have fewer "flares" when I do.

[Capella1 in reply to CatsofCatford]

did you test or just take it. I want take selenum but dont no how much.

[CatsofCatford in reply to Capella1]

I take 200 mcg per day as recommended by Izabella Wentz, the 'Thyroid Pharmacist'. She doesn't believe you need to test before taking this dose if you have Hashimotos but in the article I've linked to below, she does discuss selenium toxicity and what to look out for if you're taking too much. Good luck 😊

thyroidpharmacist.com/artic...

[Capella1 in reply to CatsofCatford]

thank you 🙂

[tattybogle]

Have just started reading this paper ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a... which helvella posted recently . Contains a lot of information about selenium.

" .... In contrast, selenium supplementation resulted in immunostimulation, such as enhanced proliferation of activated T cells, activation of natural killer cells, and tumor regression mediated by cytotoxic lymphocytes ...... "

"Autoimmune Thyroid Diseases

Hashimoto’s thyroiditis and Graves’ disease are the most common autoimmune thyroid diseases (111). Reduced serum selenium concentrations have been reported in patients with autoimmune thyroid disease (112, 113). Consequently, several studies have tested the efficacy of selenium supplementation in patients with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis. Three trials reported successful reductions in TPO autoantibodies titers and/or improvement of mood and well-being (114–117). As no consistent adverse events were observed, routine selenium supplementation in patients with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis was considered as a promising adjuvant treatment option (118). It is worth noting that experiences with subjects deficient in both iodine and selenium, and displaying increased disease symptoms when Se supplementation was initiated without at the same time raising iodine supply (so called myxedematous cretinism).

Selenium supplementation trials in patients with Graves’ disease are limited. One of the major and severe complications of Graves’ disease, ophthalmopathy (also known as orbitopathy) is an inflammatory process in nature and presents as a protrusion of one or both eyes. Increased intraorbital pressure results in proptosis and compressive neuropathy, and inflammation of the extraocular muscles causes diplopia (119). One randomized clinical trial of selenium supplementation in patients with mild Graves’ orbitopathy was performed, and the quality of life and eye disease parameters improved significantly after 6 months of treatment (120, 121). Recently, it was reported that selenium suppressed hyaluronan production, inflammatory cytokines, and intracellular ROS generation in cultured orbital fibroblasts of patients with Graves’ orbitopathy (GO), suggesting a basis for the use of selenium in the treatment of GO (122)."

"... Thyroid Hormone Replacement ...... "

"Conclusions and Future Directions

The main reason for the increased interest in rare genetic diseases and their molecular genetic mechanisms is to facilitate the effective treatment of more common diseases related to it. In the treatment of hypothyroidism, there has always been much controversy about T4 treatment and T3/T4 combination therapy. It is the Se status and Se intake that may be critical for success or failure of the T3/T4 combination therapy, in view of Se deficiency potentially impairing sufficient DIO expression in target tissues for efficient T3 production (without this defect being reflected in circulating thyroid hormone concentrations). It is expected that a fundamental approach to this will become possible as knowledge accumulates through future studies. As our understanding of selenoprotein metabolism and action deepens, the scope for its clinical application expands. In the future, it is expected that a new era of the most appropriate thyroid hormone replacement therapy will further expand our understanding of the molecular mechanisms of action of selenium and selenoprotein, especially the entire process of thyroid hormone metabolism through DIOs and its related pathological conditions."

[TSH110 in reply to tattybogle]

So it does stimulate the immune system then. not suppress it. GG was right and I was mistaken.

[tattybogle in reply to TSH110]

yes . but (totally out of my depth here ) .. we can't assume 'immune system' means exactly the same thing as 'autoimmune system' if you know what i mean ....

[radd in reply to tattybogle]

tattybogle + TSH110

Exactly! Think of it as two separate immune systems; antibodies and auto-antibodies so it depends which you are referring to as to whether it is stimulated or suppressed. (see my reply below).

[tattybogle in reply to radd]

yes .. when covid first came onto the scene and we were all wondering if autoimmune disease might make us more 'at risk',..... i said to diogenes that since my immune system was strong enough to kill off my thyroid , might it actually be an advantage re. the virus ? He said ... No, its a different bit of the immune system that attacks your thyroid.

[TSH110 in reply to radd]

Oh that’s interesting I had never thought of it that way

[radd]

Cindy8atCrystalP,

Yes, selenium is essential for T4 -T3 conversion but also protects thyroid cells from oxidative damage & inflammation caused during the conversion. Isabella Wentz states “Being deficient in this key thyroid nutrient is a very common and widely recognised trigger of autoimmune thyroid conditions!’

This is because the thyroid (should) contains the highest amount of selenium in the body which incorporate into many varying types of selenoproteins that all do important jobs, ie selenium via antioxidant glutathione peroxide neutralises excess hydrogen peroxide produced in T4 to T3 conversion that stops oxidative damage.

Selenium must be balanced with iodine and when we are selenium deficient we become iodine dominant (even with low levels that just top that of selenium). With more iodine more thyroid activity is induced but without enough selenoproteins to neutralise the oxidative damage which causes inflammation of the surrounding thyroid tissues, this is the triggering of the lymphocyte infiltration and so the start of a Hashi attack.

Adverse outcomes are associated with either deficiency or excess selenium but the right amount has been shown to be particularly beneficial to both Graves & Hashi suffers and those more likely to have TH-1 cytokine dominance, reducing TPOAb’s and calming an over active immune system.

Thank you for posting and reminding me of this importance.