Are blood tests as definitive as people assume?

[Carys21]

Interesting article on blood testing:

conellaholdings.com/are-blo...

[shaws Administrator]

It certainly is very, very interesting. A couple of excerpts:-

So how did we manage before blood tests were invented? If we look at medical case history, taking naturopathy and other forms of early medicine into account, it becomes clear that we were able to assess the health of individuals long before we developed these methods.

This raises obvious questions. Firstly, if we can evaluate someone’s health without a blood test, why is it necessary to carry them out on such a frequent basis? Secondly, if a person looks and feels healthy but their blood tests disagree, are they unhealthy or not? Thirdly, if a person feels unwell but blood tests as being healthy, is the blood test correct or their lived experience?

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu....

[Carys21 in reply to shaws]

I trained in naturopathy and it does focus on looking at the individual as a whole - the problem with the NHS is they have divided the body into bits with a "specialist" for each part. To quote my (ex) doctor who was very nice but typical of his profession, he said "you are talking about the body as if it is all one piece, but it's not it's made out of many different systems" That was my first and last visit to discuss my thyroid related symptoms - at one time I thought the NHS might have been some help to me.

[SeasideSusie Remembering in reply to Carys21]

"you are talking about the body as if it is all one piece, but it's not it's made out of many different systems"

Because I'm old 😊 I was born just before the NHS was born, and I grew up with a proper family doctor, you know the sort, they knew you, your siblings, your parents, even your grandparents, so of course they knew family medical history. When you visited the doctor it was routine for them to pull down your lower eye lid to see if it was a good colour inside, get you to stick your tongue out, check your pulse, look at your nails, etc, whatever you went to see them about. Yes, everything was connected then. I wonder when our bodies became disconnected and just became a collection of separate parts 🤔

They were also interested in you as a person and a family, would ask "how is so and so now?" and - crikey - maybe even call at your house to see how you're progressing if they were nearby 😲

Sometimes, just sometimes, we don't benefit much from progress!

[Carys21 in reply to SeasideSusie]

Good point, I was only 10 when it started so I was lucky enough to have proper old fashioned Doctors when I was a child.

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK]

It starts out making some reasonable points. But then seems to go bananas!

This means each cell is individually responsible for producing what it requires, whether this be fat, hormones, minerals, proteins, vitamins, or water.

Does anyone actually believe that?

Every cell makes its own cholesterol?

Every cell makes its own thyroid hormone?

Every cell makes its own sodium, potassium, etc.?

Every cell makes its own vitamins? (Hint: The definition of a vitamin usually says that it is a compound that cannot be made in our bodies and must be sourced from our diet. Which is why vitamin C is a vitamin for humans, but many other mammals can make their own.)

Every cell makes its own water?

Just where do the ingredients come from to do these things? It appears to be saying that we only need vibrational energy.

[Carys21 in reply to helvella]

This is based on the teachings of Barbara Wren who I trained with, she was very focussed on cleansing at a cellular level, but I believe she actually meant an individual cell in optimum condition has the capabilities to take energy from light in much the same way as plants can. It's a complex theory and I would not be able to explain it as well as she could.

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to Carys21]

I'm sorry Carys21, but I don't have any idea what it means to be "very focussed on cleansing at a cellular level".

I'm not averse to the idea that photons can affect cells - so long as they can penetrate far enough. But I am utterly bewildered by the apparent creation of substance out of energy.

Nutrition teaching

Inside Out's investigation into a West Country nutritional college has found worrying evidence of teaching that could prove dangerous.

bbc.co.uk/insideout/content...

[Carys21 in reply to helvella]

I don't need the link from the Bias Broadcasting Corporation thanks, I am already aware of it.

[tattybogle in reply to Carys21]

I don't need the link from the Bias Broadcasting Corporation thanks, I am already aware of it.

perhaps you don't need it, but other's might be interested in order to to make a balanced judgement on the link in your post. I found it useful. People can be easily led into harmful ideas when they are desperate for a cure, i once (stupidly) went on a week long carrot juice /colonic irrigation / detox thing, to try and 'cure' myself ... after 3 days i was more unwell than i'd ever been in my life, and more to the point the providers of the course seemed very panicked and in no position to really give decent advice for someone with hypothyroidism.

I accept responsibility .. it was a silly thing to do ..i was looking for a quick fix, and it soon became apparent that despite all the 'health' blurb on the promotional material, it was in fact just designed to get quick weight loss and an exorbitant profit from carrots... but people who are already unwell can end up in a proper mess if they are given advice from people who don't actually understand the body chemistry effects of hypothyroidism and it's treatment with replacement hormone.

i'm all for looking at the body as a whole, i've had positive experiences in healing from more holistic practitioners.. so i'm not against it at all.... but caution is definitely needed.

(especially from people selling carrot juice for £30 a day !.. i've learned my lesson now and just buy my own carrots)

[tattybogle]

I see blood tests as rather like having a speed camera every 100yds along a dual carriageway. If one of those results say you were speeding. does it mean you were driving dangerously fast ? or does it mean you were just going faster briefly to overtake a combine harvester ?

If 4 of them in a row say you were speeding then yes, you probably were.... but even then if it was half past 4 on an empty 'sunday morning on a dry road' does it even matter if you WERE speeding ?

If the speed limit is 60 and your car happily does 90 and is well serviced, then 60 is not a problem, and neither is 70 (unless there's a copper hiding behind a bush)

If you are on a little moped with a 49cc engine that hasn't seen any oil for 3 years, then 60 is likely to lead to a big cloud of smoke and having to walk the rest of the way pushing it.

So i think blood tests are no use at all unless interpreted by a brain using judgement and experience, and ideally a long history of other blood tests to compare with for that individual.

Oh yes ..and actually LOOKING at the patient

[Gingernut44 in reply to tattybogle]

Oh yes, I agree that actually looking at the patient helps, something my GP has forgotten to do- he barely takes his face out of his computer screen. I bet he couldn’t even recognise any of his patients 😱😆

[diogenes Remembering]

I invented some of the thyroid tests used widely today. Studying groups of patients on the one hand and diagnosing them as individuals on the other leads to a logical nonsense. First a patient sees a doctor and describes their symptoms. The doctor listens, and then afterward looks at the results of whatever blood tests were ordered. The doctor assesses the patient then from the position within or outside the prescribed test limits, obtained by amalgamating many people together. By simply diagnosing by the "within" or "outside" of range results, the individuality of the patient is simply discarded. The patient is being treated as a robot in a sea of identical robots. The medical discipline has simply not taken in the implications of this basic misuse of test results. I do not suggest that no tests should be done at all, but they should used in full knowledge of their limitations in diagnosis. More usefully, they are important for keeping people on therapy in as stable position as is possible but, once again, the patient's experience should complement test results so that, combined together the optimum pathway to health is followed.

[Carys21 in reply to diogenes]

Well put, I have a book on helping they thyroid written by dr barry durrant peatfield who says the same, use the blood test as a guide but also look at how you feel and whether your symptoms are improving

[diogenes Remembering in reply to Carys21]

This is what my colleagues and I wrote as a summary to a paper we had published:

It appears that what we are witnessing constitutes an unprecedented historic change in the diagnosis and treatment of thyroid disease, driven by over-reliance on a single laboratory parameter TSH and supported by persuasive guidelines. This has resulted in a mass experiment in disease definition and a massive swing of the pendulum from a fear of drug-induced thyrotoxicosis to the new actuality of unresolved designation of hypothyroidism. All of this has occurred in a relatively short period of time without any epidemiological monitoring of the situation. Evidence has become ephemeral and many recommendations lag behind the changing demographic patterns addressing issues that are no longer of high priority as the pendulum has already moved in the opposite direction. In a rapidly changing medical environment, guidelines have emerged as a novel though often over-promoted driver of unprecedented influence and change. Treatment choices no longer rest primarily on the personal interaction between patient and doctor but have become a mass commodity, based on the increasing use of guidelines not as advisory but obligatory for result interpretation and subsequent treatment. Contrary to all proclaimed efforts towards a more personalised medicine, this has become a regulated consumer mass market as with many other situations. This is of little benefit to patients who will continue to complain, and with some justification, that the medical profession is not listening, thereby abandoning one of its primary functions in the doctor-patient relationship.

[Gingernut44 in reply to diogenes]

If only GPs would read your excellent work 😩

[userotc in reply to Carys21]

100%!!. It's complete sense/logic. I realised that allopathic medicine doesnt follow (or understand) the individualised approach a long time ago. In addition to my personal, bad experience with medics (on my profile), it was part of the reason I too trained in naturopathic nutrition, still studying.

Many oppose naturopaths in ignorance or because they charge fees but, at least here in the UK, we pay for useless allopathic treatment albeit via taxes.

[Carys21 in reply to userotc]

Good luck with your studies, it is a very useful tool to have IMO. I no longer practice but I do keep up to date with it all. As for the NHS, I would prefer having the option for private healthcare - I watched them poison my mother to death and was helpless to stop them.

[userotc in reply to Carys21]

Many thanks. Please pm me after clicking onto my name. I'd be interested to know why you don't practise and your mum's sad story, if you're ok to share.

[Carys21 in reply to userotc]

Will do x

[Carys21]

And I don't expect you had any constructive feedback from them