Dead fish

[Deadfish]

Hi. Ive been taking metavive for some time but my health has deteriorated greatly. Ive been told its a supplement. It was suggested to try tiromel so ive sent for some. Has anyone benefited from it? Also ive ordered some ndt should i take it with the tiromel or try them separately? Would be grateful for advice.

[SeasideSusie Remembering]

Welcome to the forum Deadfish

Just a little tip, when you do your post title it's best to make it appropriate to your question to attract the attention of members who can help and may have had similar experiences

As for Metavive, some people do well on it, some don't. How much were you taking? Did you increase it? Did you do testing to see how your levels changed?

Who suggested Tiromel? Tiromel (liothyronine/T3) can be useful but before starting it you need to know that you actually need it. To know this you need to test TSH, FT4 and FT3 all at the same time. If TSH is 1 or below with high in range FT4 and low in range FT3 then this shows that you are a poor converter of T4 (the storage/inactive hormone) to T3 (the active hormone that every cell in our bodies need).

So it's best to be on Levo first to get your FT4 as high as possible and TSH as low as possible to be able to see what your conversion of T4 to T3 is like.

Also before starting T3 we need optimal nutrient levels so it's important to test Vit D, B12, Folate and Ferritin and see if you have any low levels or deficiencies and address these before considering T3.

It's not usual to take both NDT and T3 although a few people do. It all depends on your results.

I think the first thing you should be doing is a full thyroid/vitamin panel, post results on the forum and members can then advise further.

We have recommended private labs who can do these tests with a fingerprick or venous blood draw sample:

Medichecks ADVANCED THYROID FUNCTION medichecks.com/products/adv...

Check this page for details of any discounts: thyroiduk.org/getting-a-dia...

or

Blue Horizon Thyroid PREMIUM GOLD bluehorizonbloodtests.co.uk...

Check this page for discount code thyroiduk.org/getting-a-dia...

Always advised here, when having thyroid tests:

* Blood draw no later than 9am. This is because TSH is highest early morning and lowers throughout the day. If looking for a diagnosis of hypothyroidism, an increase in dose of Levo or to avoid a reduction then we need the highest possible TSH

* Nothing to eat or drink except water before the blood draw. This is because eating can lower TSH and coffee can affect TSH.

* If taking thyroid hormone replacement, last dose of Levo should be 24 hours before blood draw, if taking NDT or T3 then last dose should be 8-12 hours before blood draw. Adjust timing the day before if necessary. This avoids measuring hormone levels at their peak after ingestion of hormone replacement. Take your thyroid meds after the blood draw. Taking your dose too close to the blood draw will give false high results, leaving any longer gap will give false low results.

* If you take Biotin or a B Complex containing Biotin (B7), leave this off for 7 days before any blood test. This is because if Biotin is used in the testing procedure it can give false results (most labs use biotin).

These are patient to patient tips which we don't discuss with phlebotomists or doctors.

[Jazzw in reply to SeasideSusie]

I was intrigued by the “dead fish” reference and wondered how on earth it was going to be linked to a thyroid issue. The level of iodine in dodgy fish-killing kelp?

SeasideSusie’s advice is as always spot on, so I won’t add more waffle Deadfish

Hope you find a way forward with it all soon.

[Hidden in reply to SeasideSusie]

Seaside Susie,Maybe OT, but I just struck me why the so called anti-aging (aka Hertoghe) doctors often fail to make patients well.

What they do - and I know this from personal experience - is to tell you that your vitamin and mineral levels are horrible so you need to correct those but first you need start on NDT or T3...been there, but not done that, as I decided to try to correct vit and min deficiences first...and it worked. So you are very correct when you say that you should not start T3 before correcting low vits and min levels first.

[Deadfish in reply to SeasideSusie]

I have received my Thyroid test results from Thriva. I would be glad of your assessment as to what they mean. I have been ill for a long time but only got a diagnosis from Dr. Skinner in Birmingham two months before he sadly died.

[SlowDragon Administrator in reply to Deadfish]

What vitamin supplements are you currently taking

Vitamin D is getting very high. How much vitamin D are you currently taking

Suggest you reduce to maintenance dose

B12 and folate could be better. Are you currently taking any vitamin B complex?

TSH is too high for someone on replacement thyroid hormones, suggests you are under medicated

[socratesanne in reply to SlowDragon]

How much D do you recommend? I read to increase if having scalp problems but not sure whether this is true and will not get help from MD for over a month. Not sure they even know, the doctors, not well versed in the vitamins what so ever oftentimes.

[SeasideSusie Remembering in reply to socratesanne]

socratesanne

How much D do you recommend?

That is impossible for anyone to say unless you post your latest result along with the unit of measurement. Too much Vit D can lead to toxicity, it is a fat soluble vitamin so any excess gets stored.

[Deadfish in reply to SlowDragon]

Yes I am taking B12 complex and folate. I have been experimenting on high dose D but am now taking maintainable does. I also take vi t C (5 gms a day)

[SeasideSusie Remembering in reply to Deadfish]

Deadfish

Thriva have a very confusing way of displaying the results on the bar graph. The actual reference range is only the green part (light and dark green) and you have included the orange parts as well.

You can find your results with their normal ranges as a pdf using the link in the help page

intercom.help/thrivahelpcen...

Your results will then look like this:

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

So the actual ranges are:

Active B12: 64 (37.5-188)

Active B12 below 70 suggests testing for B12 deficiency. Aim for 100+

Folate: 19.5 (8.83-60.8)

On the low side, folate is recommended to be at least half way through range so that would be about 35+ with that range.

What B Complex do you take and what dose? You would benefit from raising your dose to improve those levels. You need a good quality, bioavailable B Complex containing methylfolate and methylcobalamin. Often recommended here are Thorne Basic B or Igennus Super B but be aware that Igennus Super B contains Vit C and this keeps the body from using B12, Vit C needs to be taken 2 hours away from B12.

**

Ferritin 142: (not sure of their range for males)

That is a good level, I've seen it said that 150 is a good level for males.

**

Vit D: 250nmol/L (75-175)

You are at risk of toxicity. I would stop your Vit D supplement for a couple of months, retest and then post your level at that time. We can then suggest what dose you may need to take.

If just testing Vit D you can do this with a private fingerprick blood spot test with an NHS lab which offers this test to the general public at a cost of £29 and all it requires is 4 spots of blood not a microtainer like some labs:

vitamindtest.org.uk/

**

TPO Abs: 7.2 (<34)

Tg Abs: 11.9 (<115)

These are low and don't suggest autoimmune thyroid disease (Hashimoto's)

TSH: 4.37 (0.27-4.20)

FT4: 15.6 (12-22)

FT3: 4.8 (3.1-6.8)

Total T4: 117 (59-154)

You are actually making a fairly decent amount of T4 but the Total T4 test shows the total of T4 both bound to proteins and unbound (free). It is the Free T4 that is available to the cells and yours is fairly low but not surprising considering your TSH.

Your TSH is telling us you are hypothyroid although you wouldn't get a diagnosis on the NHS until it is over 10 or maybe over range with below range FT4.

What were you actually taking at the time of this test - Metavive? If so when did you take your last dose?

You say you've ordered some T3 and some NDT.

Personally I would keep this simple. I would start with Levo. You could try to get this prescribed but I think it would be difficult with those results. It is possible to obtain Levo without prescription, some of the T3 sellers also sell Levo.

I would follow the normal protocol for starting and titration of Levo, eg start on 50mcg and retest after 6 weeks, then increase every 6-8 weeks by 25mcg. Get your TSH as low as possible (preferably below 1) then see where your FT4 and FT3 lie. Only then, depending on the results, would you consider T3.

You could use NDT and there is a protocol for starting that which is:

Starting dose: 1/4 grain (15mgs) in the morning and quarter of a grain in the afternoon and stay on this for 7 days. If no adverse effects:

Week 2: increase your dose by another 1/2 grain (30mgs) a day. Take half a grain in the morning and half a grain in the afternoon (total 1 grain daily) and stay on this dose for at least 3 weeks. If no adverse effects:

Week 5-6: increase by another 1/2 grain and take 1 grain (60mgs) in the morning and 1/2 grain (30mg) in the afternoon (total 1 and 1/2 grains daily). Stay on this dose for 3 weeks and again, if no adverse effects:

Week 8-9: increase by another half grain and take one grain in the morning and one grain in the afternoon and stay on this for another 3 weeks (total 2 grains daily).

This may or may not be enough. If you are still symptomatic, increase by 1/4 grain (15mg) every 3 weeks. If you feel overmedicated then drop back to the previous dose.

I am not medically qualified and I am not advocating that you self medicate, that has to be your choice, I am just point out the options if that is the route you wish to take.

[Deadfish in reply to SeasideSusie]

Your question about my Vit B intake. I am taking Medverita B complex, this includes the following - Folate770ugs.Thiamin 50 mgs. Riboflavin 50mgs.Nicotinamide 25mgs.Nocinic acid 25mgs. Choline 50mgs. Dicalcium panothenate 50mgs. Pyridoxol phosphate 35 mgs. D-biotin 750ugs.Inositol 50mgs.P- Aminobenzioc acid 50mgs. Methylcoballanin 750ugs. I am taking one per day. Thanks for the helpful comments.

[SeasideSusie Remembering in reply to Deadfish]

Deadfish

Those are quite decent doses of methylfolate and methylcobalamin at 750mcg, a more usual dose would be 400mcg, so it's surprising your levels are that low. How long have you been taking that supplement?

As mentioned above, Active B12 below 70 suggests testing for B12 deficiency and I wonder if it might be worth you doing this. Check for signs of B12 deficiency here:

b12deficiency.info/signs-an...

b12d.org/submit/document?id=46

If you do have any then list them to discuss with your GP and ask for testing for B12 deficiency and Pernicious Anaemia. You have to be off any B12 supplements or folic acid/folate/B Complex supplements before further testing of B12 as this will mask signs of B12 deficiency and skew results.

Pyridoxol phosphate is B6 and your dose is 35mg. It's recommended that for long term use the maximum dose should be no more than 10mg.

[Deadfish in reply to SeasideSusie]

Doctor Chat... I spoke to my Dr. this afternoon. I told him about my blood test- results he insists on doing them himself, he does not trust my results. He did not know what N.D.T. was, I had to explain. This does not give me much confidence in getting any help. I thought you might like to know. I will let you know what happens next.

[Hidden]

Have you been diagnosed with thyroid disease? If so, which one(s) and do you have recent lab results to post here? Without that, it will be difficult to offer you advice. Metavive is a supplement without any declared hormone content whereas Tiromel is synthetic T3 used to treat hypothyroidsm (in some cases). I don´t think it would be a good idea to combine Tiromel and NDT without knowing more first. Please post any lab results you may have here.