Levo to armour

[susanhamm]

My son has just come off Levothyroxine 5 days ago and has gone onto Armour and the change has been amazing after three years of suffering and being in crisis twice in that time.I would like to know if anyone has any side effects as he is experiencing mostly panic attacks and anxiety in a different way especially after three of it and is now starting to question himself.He says the feelings are different and he seems to be coping better but I am very afraid he could talk himself back down the rocky road.Do any of you have any experiences that might help him understand.

[Hidden]

Are you saying that he is experiencing panic attacks after switching to Armour?

Normally, you´d decrease levo and add 1/4 grain of Armour (15 mg) every other week or so, slowly raising your dose of Armour, while decreasing levo by 25 mcg at a time.

Going off levo altogether, while taking a starting dose of NDT, may cause hypo symptoms to return since you need to raise NDT slowly due to its T3 content. Which is why it´s better to slowly wean off levo while adding low doses of Armour at a time. His body needs to get used to the direct T3 in Armour.

Panic attacks could be caused by too much T3. How much Armour is he taking?

Did he switch to Armour under a doctor´s supervision or is he self-treating?

[greygoose]

Before we could give any meaningful advice we would have to have more details:

* how much levo was he taking?

* what were his labs - TSH, FT4, FT3 - on levo only?

* how did he do the transfer - straight swop? building up slowly?

* how much NDT is he now taking?

[jamiebgp in reply to greygoose]

Hi,

This is the son😎 .... sadly I’ve struggled very badly since going on Levo with both mental as well as physical health. As mum mentioned above, this has been going on for almost 3 years and just recently this is my second bout of support under Crisis team and once again back under the care of my parents. I’ve had smaller mental health issues in the past but nothing that wasn’t manageable on a very small dose of citalopram. 3 months after starting Levo I was under the care of Crisis team as I had become suicidal, three years on and I’m still struggling with huge bouts of anxiety, intrusive thoughts and depression. I had started self medicating a year ago and dropped my Levo down to 75mcgs and sourced T3 from Turkey and was on 19.5 mcgs twice a day. After an initial uplift at first the anxiety still proved problematic as well as the fatigue. I’m now under Dr Frey at Country Health and 9 days ago switched from the above meds to 1 grain of Armour twice a day. After a couple of days I started to feel a change, the anxiety almost disappeared and I glimpsed my old self for the first time on 3 years, the fatigue had started to dwindle, head fog cleared but I had a different feeling in my body. Almost like an anxiety but in my chest. That was fine as I was relieved to not have the same anxiety I had had for the last few years. Gradually as I’ve continued with the Armour I’ve noticed chest anxiety has increased and I’m having waves of depression. I’m so confused and don’t know whether it’s the a Levo coming out, the NDT going in, am I taking too much NDT and go Hyper or what, all I know is that it’s a nightmare. I’m into day 10 and on the verge of panic attacks on occasion. Tests wise, my results as of a few weeks ago are as follows.

Any help much appreciated.

TSH 0.386 (0.27 - 4.2)

FT4 9.05 ( 12 -22)

FT3 5.27 (3.1 - 6.8)

RT3 10 (10 - 24)

TG Antibodies 20.9 (0 - 115)

TPO Antibodies 204 ( 0-34)

VIT D 112 (60-80)

B12 86.7 (37.5 - 188)

Ferritin 214 (30-400)

Serum Folate 8.1 (3.89 -26.8)

[greygoose in reply to jamiebgp]

Addressing son:

OK, so you did pretty much a straight swop: 75 mcg T4/19.5 mcg T3 to 136 mcg T4/18 mcg T3. More T4 but slightly less T3.

I take it those labs were on the 75/19.5? Well, you were perhaps a little under-medicated on that - FT3 could have been high, and it's low T3 that causes symptoms. So, it might be a good idea to increase the NDT by 1/4 grain in a few days time.

You do have Hashi's, did you know that? Do you know how Hashi's works?

For future reference, absolutely no point in testing rT3, it doesn't give you any useful information.

Your vit D is a bit high - have you been supplementing?

B12 and folate could be higher - in your place, I'd take a good B complex - Igennus do a good one, you can find it on Amazon.

Ferritin looks good, but did you have your CRP tested?

Do you have any labs from the time you were on T4 (levo) only? It would be good to know how well you convert, so would need to see FT4 and FT3 tested together. Could be that all that T4 is a bit much for you, but you need more T3.

[jamiebgp in reply to greygoose]

Hi Greygoose,

Thank you for your help. I am aware I’m Hashi and started going gluten free when I moved to NDT, I’m kind of dairy free as well.

I was supplementing VIT D but stopped a few weeks ago. I was on B Complex, magnesium and folic acid for a while but had stopped those as I have moved onto Lamberts ADR which was recommended.

HS CRP is 0.5 (0-5.00)

I’ve just never felt good on Levo or since being diagnosed. The huge mental health issues just came in abundance a few months after starting and I’d never suffered with anxiety at all. I’m at a point where my quality of life is at a minimum but completely alone with Doctors and mental health at a loss as to how to treat me without antipsychotics.

Best J

[greygoose in reply to jamiebgp]

Going dairy-free is not obligatory, you know. For most people it's not even necessary. Only if you react badly to dairy.

I am sorry to tell you this, but whoever recommended the Lamberts ADR should be shot. It's just a common or garden multi-vit, and a multi-vit by any other name smells of taking the gullible for a ride. They are always a very, very bad idea.

This particular one contains iron. So, the iron will block the absorption of all the vitamins. In other words, you're paying for vitamins you're not going to get!

And it contians copper, which you possibly don't want. Hypos usually have low zinc and high copper, so you should always get copper tested before supplementing.

It contians magnesium but it doesn't say what sort. I'm willing to bet it's magnesium oxide, which is the cheapest, but also the least bioavailable.

And it contains a lot of adaptogens. Not everybody reacts well to adaptogens. They are supposed to 'balance' cortisol, but don't always. And, if you start feeling off when taking this supplements, you won't have any idea what it causing it.

All supplements are best started one at a time - not altogether as in a multi - with a two week gap between starting each one, in case of problems. But this is especially true with adaptogens.

Your CRP is good, so therefore you ferritin is good.

If someone doesn't feel well on levo, it could be for one of two reasons: a) under-medication, b) poor conversion. But, we can't know which it is without seeing the relevant labs. But, whichever it is, it's more than likely that doctors won't understand the problem because they don't know enough about thyroid.

[jamiebgp in reply to greygoose]

Hi Grey Goose,

I moved to Almond milk essentially as Diary Milk gave me stomach issues and diarrhoea. I don't go out of my way to remove it from everything but its a start.

Ive removed the ADR and will go back onto my B Complex and Magnesium as before.

Ive attached my first years test results when just on Levo and the first month of starting Levo and T3, I hope you can see a correlation?

The waves of depression are still very strong, Ive reached out to Dr Frey to see if this could be due to a dose increase requirement. Im only into day 12 of the change over but had a noticeable difference after day tow then a gradual decline. Very confused at the moment.

Best

J

Date LEVO TSH T4 T3

13/11/2017 50Mcg 7.06 13 No results

11/12/2017 100Mcg 3.8 14 No results

06/03/2017 125MCg 1.3 19 No results

01/05/2017 100Mcg 1.56 3.92 No results

05/06/2018 100mcg 1.62 24 No results

28/06/2018 100mcg 2.14 19 3.78

23/11/2018 75mcg 0.78 10 4.3 (T3 25mcg - Split 12.5 X 2)

[greygoose in reply to jamiebgp]

OK, so the 28/06/18 result does show poor conversion. That's a very low FT3. So, really not surprising you didn't feel good on levo only.

Did you start straight onto 25 mcg T3? That's much too high a dose to begin with.

Im only into day 12 of the change over but had a noticeable difference after day tow then a gradual decline.

This is to be expected, and nothing to worry about. When you first change your dose, the body appreciates it, but then realises that it's not enough, so the symptoms come creeping back. All it means is that you need an increase in dose. If you can hang on a couple of days, then increase by 1/4 grain.

[jamiebgp in reply to greygoose]

Hi Grey Goose and thank you so much for your time. As im taking one grain in the morning and one in the afternoon, do you think that upping the dose by 1/4 of a grain on Wednesday should be with the morning dose? total does 2 1/4 grains per day....

Thanks

J

[greygoose in reply to jamiebgp]

Yes, I think it would be best to increase the morning dose. But, it's all trial and error to find out exactly what sort of schedule suits you as an individual.

[jamiebgp in reply to greygoose]

Hi Grey Goose,

I had reply from the Dr who has suggested I go to 1.5 grain in the morning and 1.5 grain in the afternoon or take 1 grain three times a day and then test in 4 weeks. Considering the deep depression and what looks like im under dosing do you think this will course any issues? I wa previously on Levo 75mcg and 39 mcg T3 (split into two lots).

Thanks again

Jamie

[greygoose in reply to jamiebgp]

Going from 2 grains to three grains in one go would be far too much of an increase. Increases are far better done 1/4 grain at a time even if you are very under-medicated. I don't really think your doctor understands how to dose NDT. I think a big increase like that would probably stress your body and make you ill. Could even make your depression worse. Slow and steady is the way to go.

And, quite apart from the stress it will cause to your body, increasing that fast would probably mean you miss your sweet spot. It's easily done once you get past two grains. I think he's a very silly man to have suggested that.

[jamiebgp in reply to greygoose]

Hi Greygoose,

Im upping the dose by 1/4 and see how I feel over the next week or so, would that be long enough to get into my system for gauging?

Best

J

[greygoose in reply to jamiebgp]

Who knows. Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. We're all different. But, as long as you don't get worse, it should be ok.

[jamiebgp in reply to greygoose]

Hi Greygoose,

Thank you for all the help and advice, let’s hope everything begins to fall back into place and I can start to reclaim my life again.

Best

J

[greygoose in reply to jamiebgp]

You're very welcome. And, good luck. Stay in touch.

[susanhamm in reply to greygoose]

Hi greygoose, this j's Mum and I to would like to thank you for outstanding support from you and some of the other members.This group is invaluable to us all whether as a relative or a sufferer in a closed minded health service. J has been fighting these problems for three years and we have all come across brick walls which have left him in a terrible state and no confidence in the services available after being let down time after time. We have been at our wits end and all just to try to get the medication he needed.We knew without a doubt that the meds he was on were having this awful effect on him but no-one listens and it was only by dogged determination and a lot of money that he found someone who could give him what he needed but still no real advice on how to continue with the new meds.Your forum has so much knowledge and experiences that are invaluable to people who are caught up in this awful plight and I don't think you will ever know how much it means just to have had someone who understood and listened to both my side of the story and his.His fight is still ongoing but your input has put back our faith and his in humanity and understanding.Nothing can replace experience , knowledge and understanding and you have all been brilliant and a special hats off to you for helping us through this minefield.We are eternally grateful to you all.Please keep up the good work.

[greygoose in reply to susanhamm]

You're more than welcome. Hope things go better from now on.

[shaws Administrator]

We can switch to an equivalent dose of whatever thyroid hormones we want to trial.

As Armour is made from animals' thyroid glands, it is more conducive to the human body than synthetic levothyroxine.

If we're changing from levo to Armour (or any other NDT) 100mcg of levo is equal to 1 gr of Armour or NDT.

Sometimes we have to be patient and start on a slightly lower dose and work up to an 'optimum dose' with small increases every few weeks until we feel well with no symptoms.

Our body acclimitises to our new regime - sometimes quickly with small increases every few weeks until we're symptom-free.

You can tell him that levothyroxine alone is T4. T4 is inactive and has to convert to T3 which is the Active Thyroid Hormone needed in our millions of T3 receptor cells. We have T3 receptor cells from head to toe and brain and heart need the most.

These are some links your son may find helpful and they are by a scientist/researcher/doctor who was also an Adviser to Thyroiduk. Unfortunately he had an accident and died:-

web.archive.org/web/2010103...

web.archive.org/web/2010103...

excerpt from the last link above:-

"The main symptoms of other people are lethargy and fatigue. Their doctors may diagnose their symptoms as "chronic fatigue syndrome." Still other people may have depression, and others poor concentration and memory. The entire lists of potential symptoms and signs are too long to include here. I have included the most common symptoms and signs on other pages at drlowe.com.

Few conventional doctors search out and correct the underlying metabolism-impeding factors I mentioned above. Instead, they prescribe one or more drugs, hoping to relieve the patients' troubling symptoms. The diagnoses the doctors give the patients are simply labels that justify the doctors prescribing particular patented medicines that drugs companies are promoting at the time.

But I believe that most sets of symptoms—diagnosed as different disorders—have a common underlying cause. That cause is abnormally low metabolism (called "hypometabolism"). A part of the treatment approach I created and coined," metabolic rehab, is to identify factors that are slowing a patient's metabolism. After the patient and I identify the factors, they, their primary doctors, I (or all of us together) engineer a treatment regimen to eliminate, correct, or control the factors. The patient may have to tweak his or her treatment regimen one or more times. This tweaking is intended to enable the patient to find his or her individual route to recovering normal metabolism. If the patient succeeds at finding this route, he or she is freed from symptoms and signs of low metabolism.

"web.archive.org/web/2010103...