Upcoming new paper

[diogenes]

We successfully submitted a paper to the European Journal of Clinical Investigation,which is accepted subject to some revision (as always). In this we explore mathematically the role of the direct production of T3 by the healthy thyroid in determining FT3 levels overall, and compare what would happen if there was no such mechanism and if there was, when the thyroid declines. It's clear that the dying thyroid tries to maintain FT3 levels as close to normal as possible in the whole body by switching more and more from T4 production to T3. At the end of the process the thyroid remnant is actually producing more T3 than the body conversion of T4 is, until the whole thing collapses. The human body is hugely resilient to challenges like this until the bitter end. Hopefully we'll get publication late in this year. It demonstrates how the working thyroid has an influence which T4 only therapy when the gland is completely lost cannot fully restore.

[LindaC]

WoW - this is huge!

[UrsaP]

diogenes Excellent, lets hope they do not revise too much of your work.

I just don’t think I’ll ever get the seemingly total disregard, by supposedly top medics, for all things T3, unless it is because it suits the population control and pension control plan.

I hope all this hard work, producing these papers and getting them published starts to have effect. Are you, as knowledgable authors, seeing any favourable changes to attitudes?

[diogenes Remembering in reply to UrsaP]

My take on progress is that probably there is more in Europe (excl the UK) and maybe Japan, than elsewhere. The USA is totally dismissive (insofar as they won't engage or acknowledge our work publicly). This is the notorious "not invented here" mindset the US has in all matters. I think the UK and probably Australia hang on to US coat tails in this. The real hurdle in the US is that the chief gurus there want to get the credit for the modern understanding of thyroid function by means of animal genetic studies, for which they get millions of dollars in grants. This is never going to work properly, because there are too many variables. Added to their chagrin is the finding that we have left them behind as small dots in the rear mirror, because we have taken the human patient approach direct to solving the problems. And succeeded! Added to this, we had a very large, comprehensive, historical data base from which we could derive many new concepts. Very few other groups have anything like this eg in the US FT3 is hardly done except for hyperthyroid confirmation. Ditto the U K. So to catch up with us, it will take a long time for them o accumulate similar data in similar depth and scope. Meanwhile ignoring pioneers is the catchword for most.

[UrsaP]

linda96 FYI

[shaws Administrator]

I sincerely hope that those who should know, read your paper. There must be many professionals who do not read up-to-date research. Also, if the Association(s) tells members they must do 'this or that' and they do not, will they be reprimanded as has happened previously.

Many of the professionals may read but not be permitted to act.

Congratulations to you and associates for doing research to assist suffering people and sincerely hope ACTION will be taken by the Associations instead of sticking to older (old-fasioned statements and non-scientific) methods.

[shaws Administrator]

Big Pharma doesn't really want to lose their profits if everyone moves onto NDT or add T3 to T4, as Dr Lowe has stated in the past. Doctors got paid handsomely to prescribe levo plus 'extras' for the continuing symptoms. A doctor who states 'bloods in range' usually ignore any clinical symptoms and neither do they know any.

[TSH110 in reply to shaws]

Yes as far as I’m concerned it is a racket. I have found self medicating on NDT very straightforward with no blood tests whatsoever ( i did buy one but can’t get the blood out with the spigot 🙄) I question the role of doctors who seem good at keeping us ill on T4 monotherapy worshipping at the altar of their false idol TSH!

[TSH110]

Excellent news. It explains how I kept going until almost reaching the end of the road and getting levothyroxine which never made me feel fully better. I am very much looking forward to reading it.

[Nanaedake]

I'm glad your research is proving scientifically what should have been obvious but has somehow turned into a battle of opinion. At least now their is firm evidence and vindication for what thyroid patients knew all along and hopefully it will be accepted in the UK.

[helvella Administrator]

Assuming that even if there were greater awareness of thyroid, at least some would still end up at collapsing point, does this research have implications for commencement of treatment at that time?

For example, is it sensible to consider T3-only as the immediate treatment - possibly adding T4 later?

[diogenes Remembering in reply to helvella]

It means that the criteria for starting and refining treatment are very different if you have some thyroid left or none. I would never advocate starting with T3, before seeing if T4 only would work satisfactorily. The majority will react well to T4, so it's important to get those out of the equation before looking at greater detail in the remainder.

[DippyDame in reply to helvella]

My understanding is that T3-only is the last resort.....T4-onlyand then T4/T3 having both been tried and failed. It is not a quick fix and may be further complicated by poor conversion ond/or thyroid hormone resistance, which as you will know requires a supraphysiological dose of T3, if suspected/present.

In the end it may (usually does) depend on the clinical evaluation of physical symptoms....trial and error. That is a step 21st century medics seem reluctant to take....perhaps they fear litigation or removal from the register.

I doubt they would trial T3 on point of collapse

I'm clearly not a medic but I have been on that journey via the self treatment route.for nearly 2 years.....and now almost there

Just a few thoughts and a disgruntled rant about the shocking state of thyroid disease treatment!

Best...

DD

[helvella Administrator in reply to DippyDame]

Though T3 has been used in myxoedema coma. For example:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/308...

[DippyDame in reply to helvella]

Is the new paper not referring to a dying thyroid rather than a dying patient?

My brain can't cope!!!

[helvella Administrator in reply to DippyDame]

Yes. My point was simply that in untreated severe hypothyroidism, T3 is (sometimes) used. And without having tried T4 and that failing.

[DippyDame in reply to helvella]

Thank you.

At 84 I hope the poor man's "normal" results translated into good health.

His combo dose of 200/50mcg T4 /T3 was I imagine an appropriate treatment in an emergency.....but I'm not a medic.

I understood you were referring to the possibility of

"T3-only as the immediate treatment" which seemed a bit drastic for an old person....anyone..

Sorry....I'm probably just splitting hairs.

Best...

DD

[LuluCops]

Well done! I am really looking forward to reading it when it is published! I am hoping by then that they will have sorted my diagnosis out and I am able to read properly again as that is one of my most frustrating symptoms right now!!

[asidist]

very interesting, thanks so much. apologize if i'm missing this somewhere obvious (did not see anything on your profile though i may not have looked in the right place), but out of curiosity may i ask who "we" is, and what the background is of folks doing the research? and question about the findings - was the increased t3 to t4 ratio from the dying thyroid found to occur in the context of t4 and/or t3 treatment, or no treatment?

thanks

[diogenes Remembering in reply to asidist]

Answer: 1) retired MD from Germany who ran a teaching hospital thyroid department in Germany, studied at Havard and is active in Australia in thyroid matters and studies on testosterone effects in males. Author of many papers on thyroid action and diagnosis. 2) A retired biochemist/statistician/clinical trials coordinator (me) who invented the FT4 snd FT3 tests now performed worldwide (author of 125 papers, both on antibiotic action in bactera and on thyroid function, diagnosis and treatment, 3) A active thyroidologist at another German hospital who has invented a mathematical algorithm for helping diagnosis and analysis of thyroid function and response to T4 and 4) the replacement for 1) who now runs the original thyroid department in that German hospital. In the case only 5) a mathematician from Alabama University. USA.

Dying thyroid analysis was done either under no or under T4 treatment. It is a mathematical analysis knowing all the parameters necessary for working out.

[humanbean in reply to asidist]

thyroiduk.org/tuk/About_Us/...

Diogenes is on that link above. He is Dr John Midgley. He does a lot of his work with the first two people on that list.

[DippyDame]

As someone who, after much trial and error with T4/T3, and who now successfully takes one very large single dose of T3 at bedtime, I applaud the work you and your team are doing to (hopefully) overturn the ignorance or sheer complacency shown by many in the medical profession. Those who seem prepared to ignore the sufferings of undermedicated patients rather than work to achieve their well-being.

A few days ago Lorraine Cleaver posted on the Thyroid Petition Scotland FB page with words that indicate her utter dispair at the outcome of that petition. The Health Minister informed all Health Boards that patients with a clinical need should be prescribed T3.

Success....No! That decision lies with medics and convincing them that change is needed appears to be a Herculean task.

I hope they read and digest this research which has the potential to be ground breaking, swallow their egos, open their minds and realise that "First do no harm" does not mean "Do nothing".

Thank you

[Katepots]

I look forward to reading this immensely.

Let’s hope the influencers listen. Thank you

[Fruitandnutcase in reply to Katepots]

Let’s hope Diogenes et al are the influencers in this case.

[Fruitandnutcase]

Well done , this really is huge isn’t it, thank you to all involved!

[diogenes Remembering]

Well, we are seeing some movement. Thyroid medics in Newcastle are reading and downloading especially our last two or three papers. So it seems that at least they as (influential?) people are paying attention.