I have just shared in response to another post my thoughts that dieting is a big cause and trigger for thyroid disease. Especially low fat or very extreme. My own thyroid issues came about during and following some rather extreme food deprivation as a teenager. I have seen several freinds come down with thyroid symptoms during dieting and wondered if A anybody else relates to this and B if anybody knows of any studies done to prove.
Just a little hands up re thyroid and diets. - Thyroid UK
Just a little hands up re thyroid and diets.
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I relate to this.
I've had times in my life (mostly when I was in my teens) where I have tried to restrict my food intake a lot. I stopped eating breakfast regularly several decades ago, and I'm currently trying to force myself to eat breakfast every day, but after so long not doing it I find it very hard. The breakfasts I did eat were often completely grain and sugar based. I discovered a few years ago that I'm gluten-intolerant which really can't have helped.
I ate low-fat (almost) everything for years. I ate fats and oils that were artificial for most of my adult life - vegetable oils and Flora, for example. I avoided saturated fats.
I know that for big chunks of my life I was trying (and failing) to cope with being hungry a lot of the time. I would often get to evening having eaten little during the day, and I would shovel in lots of junk. I ate lots of pasta-based food for my evening meals, and also rice was often on the menu. I would probably eat pizza once a week or so. I've never really liked potatoes in any form, so that wasn't on the menu in huge amounts.
Another thing I've done throughout life is cut off all fat from meat. I'm trying to overcome my fat-phobia and I'm only having limited success.
I have changed my diet quite a lot in the last 12 - 18 months. But I'm finding the brainwashing I received throughout life on the subject of food very hard to overcome. It really doesn't help that I'm a severe carb and sugar addict. And it doesn't help that carbs were the base of so many of my meals even as a child because my parents were brought up that way and they thought it was normal to do this when feeding their kids - lack of money didn't help either.
Do I think this has all affected my health? Absolutely, yes, in many, many ways.
• in reply tohumanbean
It all turns you into a crazy eater. I have a lovely very elderly friend aged 88 who went on a slimmers world diet about 18 months ago. I said to her about two weeks into it after she was going on about what wonderful food it was and how she had lost 7 pounds that she would make her thyroid worse ad get ill if she didnt get back to eating normally. 4 months later she is unable to get out of bed until well after lunch and her hair has all but fallen out. She started to take metavive after the blood tests were inconclusive and fell of the wagon with the diet and started to get loads better but it s amazing how brainwashed people are. She phoned me a few days ago really upset about the vile cancer reasurch campaign posters and was saying that she really must go back to slimmers world.
• in reply tohumanbean
Those cheap vegetable oils really make me crave unnecessary food. I cannot eat ready meals because of the stuff.
greygoose• in reply to
It's not just the veggie oils that are the problem in ready-meals, it's also the soy - soy protein, soy flour, soy oil - all rediculously cheap, at the expense of our rain forests, and very bad for our health.
But, I do wonder if we don't have a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation, here. It is well-known that most anorexics end up hypo. But, what has never been explained is why they become anorexic in the first place. A load of psycho-babble is talked about them feeling that their eating - or not eating - is they one thing in their lives that they have some control over. But, we all know that psychiatrists are brilliant at making up 'facts' to fit their theories. Could it not be that these people that become anorexic were hypo to begin with, and that anorexia is just another brain symptom like anxiety and depression?
Why do yo-yo dieters become yo-you dieters? What made them put on the weight in the first place? Were they all greedy pigs and comfort eaters? I was a normal-sized child until the age of eight. Suddenly, I started to put on a lot of weight. Why? Not because I was stuffing my face with sweeties and fizzy drinks, I can assure you of that! We didn't have the money for sweets and fizzy drinks were absolutely for Christmas only - like a lot of other treats. The amount I ate at table didn't change because a) we couldn't afford it and b) I was always a very picky eater, and didn't like a lot of stuff, and if you didn't eat what was on your plate, you went hungry, end of. My brother probably ate more than me but stayed thin as a rake. With hind-sight, I know I was hypo. Don't know if I had Hashi's at that point or if that came later. But, I'm 99.9% certain I was hypo.
So, I spent a lot of my teen year dieting. Not having any real idea what I was doing, what to eat or what not to eat, occasionally starving myself. None of it was sustainable. I'd lose a few pounds, then put them on again. But I don't think it was the dieting that caused the hypo. I think it was the other way around. But, as none of the useless GPs I saw in my life ever tested me for hypo, I wasn't likely to find out. They would all just self-righteously lecture me about my weight. Why do I hate doctors? Have a guess!
greygoose.
Yes, I have begun to come to the same conclusion about which came first ‘anorexia or hypothyroidism’. I also agree that psychiatrists maybe ‘making up ‘facts’ to fit their theory about ‘control’ being the motivation behind anorexia. Your trenchant remarks are refreshing!
In fact there's much more current and comprehensive thinking about anorexia than the simplistic "need to be in control of one's environment" thinking, although that can certainly be one of the personality drivers for some people with anorexia. It's recognised now that there's no single cause of anorexia and everyone’s reasons or triggers can be very different, being due to a combination of factors including genetic predisposition, personality traits, and environmental factors. There's research looking into the genetic links that may underpin it, including numbers of family, twin, and adoption research studies providing compelling evidence to show that genetic factors contribute to a predisposition for eating disorders ie individuals born with certain genotypes are at heightened risk for the development of an eating disorder. This also means of course, that eating disorders are heritable. Some of the genes that have been identified to contribute to eating disorders are associated with specific personality traits, and these aspects of personality are thought to be highly heritable, often existing before the eating disorder and often persisting after recovery. Individuals who have had a family member with an eating disorder are 7-12 times more likely to develop one themselves, so presumably could relate to both nature and nurture factors. Newer research is exploring a possible epigenetic influence on eating disorder development. There is also increasing work focusing on exploring the neurochemical and neurological make-up, that may also develop understanding of why some people develop anorexia and why some do not. So science and theories about anorexia have definitely moved beyond any psychobabble theories of yesteryear.
• in reply toMaisieGray
I do think in my experince and listening to people in over eaters anonymous that unlike depression or anxiety people with anorexia are making a choice to starve themselves, it is not something that just happens to people like a lot of other 'mental health issues'. I used to get a bit of a kick out of not eating, quite a high, ,adrenoline, self harm. I think tis very possible for hypothyroid people to not want to eat, to starve themselves because they just dont feel like eating, or to be so depressed they do not bother but it did take for me a lot of energy and determination to not eat that was for me not consistant with hypo. However I suppose hypo people do starve themselves to lose weight because there is no other way to do it but doubt it cold be kept up long term or work very well.
greygoose• in reply to
I used to get a bit of a kick out of not eating
Yes, me too. For various reasons. Could that be another hypo symptom?
• in reply togreygoose
I think it is more a symptom of feeling driven to lose weight and feel great about being able to do something extreme to deal with it so a symptom yes but I dont think direct, the weight gain is the direct clinical symptom symptom and the starvation an attempt to deal with it. I suppose like a migraine, the headache and vomiting are the symptom but lying in a dark room for a few days crying and moaning a response. However if you dont acknowledge the migraine or go back even further to the cause then lying in a dark room could be the symptom of all sorts of mental health issues.
I am not really sure I can see behavior as illness but I can see that illness can lead and does to all sorts of behaviour. I suppose I see anorexia as a desperate response and maybe there are genetic indicators to that response and maybe it is very common in hypothyroid people and hypothyroidism may well be the underlying cause or reason but the response certainly when it applied to myself was a choice for which I was partly responsible unlike the hypothyroidism that just happened to me.
I don't know about latest developments in research, but has anyone research a connection to thyroid? Because all you've said above about it being heritable could also be said about thyroid.
I haven't seen any research specific to a genetic connection between Hypothyroidism and Anorexia myself; there might be some but since retiring from my therapy practice I don't tend to read as widely as I did unless it catches my interest. I know that anorexia can of course create "pseudo" symptoms of endocrine disorders that are in fact the result of severe nutritional deprivation eg low T4 & T3, hyponatremia, elevated cortisol levels, reduced testosterone etc etc but that's as far as it goes.
Over recent years I have observed a young niece & nephew. My nephew was diagnosed as autistic & has a very heightened sense of hearing. My niece who I’d say is a picky eater (& is not autistic) seems to have a heightened sense of taste. She really seems to have a keen ability to differentiate between to my taste quite similar foods. I’ve noticed also she is overly fond of using salt.
Maybe in some children they have more taste buds (of certain types?) for their own good(?).
Ah, salt cravings are related to adrenal problems. And I'm pretty sure there's a connection between autism and thyroid.
But, with me, it wasn't just about taste. It was very much about texture and appearance. I could not stand the sight of plain boiled potatoes, strange as that might sound. And, of course, if forced to put some in my mouth, they tasted earthy, and I hate earthy tastes. But it was the appearance that put me off to begin with. And I did not like things like boiled cabbage because of the texture. It just went on and on.
• in reply togreygoose
I think one of the problems re hyppthyroidism and doctors is so many of them hate fat people and even those who are not actively despising overweight people they have no comprehension at all. When I spent all those years in over eaters anonymous people often advised not to talk to people who did not have any kind of issue with weight about the problem as it was not something they were able to comprehend. I have met very very few fat doctors in my life considering weight issue effect 50% of the population. In my last four surgerys they were all slim.I have only ever worked with one over weight doctor.I wonder if they are either not accepted for medical school if over weight or if due to fat people being mainly hypothyroid or atleast have some real unrecognised health issue they cannot survive the silly hours they are expected to work.
Thye are not just nasty to hypothyroid people, people with swollen tummys that look like fat often get a hard time as well, tumours that make people swell go undiagnosed, it happened to a friend of mine.
greygoose• in reply to
You are so right there! I only got diagnosed because my doctor really hated fat people, and sent me to what he thought was a dietician, but turned out to be an endo! A very skinny, unhealthy looking woman. But, she knew as soon as she saw me. And the blood tests proved she was right. Unfortunately, after that, she had no idea how to treat me, but that's another story.
And, you're right about most doctors being slim. I did once consult a doctor who was fat, a really horrible man. I was pregnant but he was still nagging me about my weight. Finally, I said, well, at least I have a good excuse for putting weight! And, I thought he was going to cry. Do you think I don't have a good excuse? he said. I said, I have no idea, but you could be a little more understanding. I put on two stone with that pregnancy but lost every ounce the day I gave birth! Big baby, big placenta and lots of water! Ghastly man!
I think a very restrictive diet definitely can trigger a decline in thyroid health, although in absence of evidence proving it, we should avoid defining it an absolute experience for everyone who diets, or that in every case it is permanent. We know for instance, that RT3 can be elevated as a result of extreme calorie restriction, but I can't remember reading if that conversion re-prioritisation against T3 sustains permanently, beyond the dieting. There's an older study (1990) by Wadden et al, the abstract of which says:
"Changes in weight, thyroid hormones and mood were examined in 15 obese (113 kg) women over an 18-week period. After 4 weeks of a 1200 kcal/day diet, patients were randomly assigned to one of two dietary conditions: very low calorie diet (VLCD) (n = 8) or balanced deficit diet (BDD) (n = 7). VLCD patients consumed 400 kcal/day for 8 weeks and then gradually returned to a 1200 kcal/day diet. BDD patients consumed 1200 kcal/day for the entire 18 weeks. Differences in weight losses between the conditions were statistically significant only during the consumption of the VLCD. Serum T3 decreased by as much as 66 percent in VLCD patients during consumption of the 400 kcal/day diet, whereas rT3 increased by as much as 27 percent. T3 increased when patients were realimented with a 1000 kcal/day balanced diet but remained a significant 22 percent below baseline at the end of the study. BDD patients also showed marked reductions in T3, as great as 40 percent, so that the differences between the two conditions were not statistically significant. Multiple regression analyses, collapsing across conditions (n = 15), indicated that weight loss at week 12 and baseline T3 accounted for 63 percent of the variance in the change in T3 at week 12. Patients in both conditions showed improvements in mood. Changes in depression were not associated with changes in serum T3."
It would be useful to have the results of a longitudinal study showing if, and for how long, similar effects on thyroid hormones persisted way beyond the dietary restriction; and if study subjects were ultimately diagnosed with hypothyroidism.
• in reply toMaisieGray
Somebody. I think it was jim quoted a study that demonstrated macro TSH molecules related to starvation several months back I think. The TSh looks normal on blood test ie well within range but it is useless stuff and has no effect. Yes I am sure there are lots of reasons why people become hypo and dieting is just part of the mix. I however suspect very suspiciously that we are encouraged to diet to lead us into poor thyroid health or just poor health all round to drive us to need doctors and their lucrative pills and I suspect that horrid bill board campaign re cancer and obesity was sponserred directly by drug companys who probably run weight watchers as well.
SmallBlueThing• in reply to
Weight Watchers is owned by Heinz, which I regard as a supplier of over-priced, over-salty, over-sugary products, some (e.g. soups) being of little nutritional value. Checking the nutritional statement online just now, I see their baked beans are now much better than I remember. Still, they're "poacher and gamekeeper" with Weight Watchers.
• in reply toSmallBlueThing
yes but who owns Heinz are the same share holders in Merc. The people who instruct the classes are often poacher turned gamekeeper but they are as often as gullible as their clients. Weight watchers have an appauling success rate long term as do slimmer world.I think it is something like less than 1 in 680 people manage to keep the weight off for five years. I doubt many intsructors last five years.
MaisieGray• in reply to
I'm familiar with the existence of macro TSH but only in so far as knowing it's a macromolecule formed between autoimmune anti-TSH Ig and TSH molecules, with low bioactivity, and that's about it. I missed Jim's earlier post regarding its association with starvation, I'm afraid. But as an aside to that low-bioactive TSH issue, I recently read that in addition to the bioactive TSH produced in the distal part of the anterior pituitary gland, TSH is also produced in the tuberal part of the pituitary. But this tuberal-derived TSH does not stimulate the thyroid gland, and is under the control of melatonin, not influenced by TRH, and has a longer half-life (Ikegami et al 2014). But I didn't have a link to the source paper, to read more, to know if that variation of TSH is measured in the assays for 'normal' bioactive TSH, and therefore skews the results, or not. However, I digress. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so don't believe we are encouraged to lose weight to make us ill and thereby fill the coffers of Pharma companies. Given that being overweight is proven to be risky health-wise, makes just living one's life downright uncomfortable and unpleasant to the Nth degree, and speaking from time in front of my own mirror, visually has no mitigating factors, shedding that excess weight is something to be aimed for surely? I speak as some one who doesn't even make 5' 2" nowadays, what with spine deterioration and kyphoscoliosis, yet went from a size 12 to a size 22 in 12 months. I wasn't familiar with the billboard ad, but have braved watching the beyond dreadful Good Morning programme, to hear a segment on it - if it's the one looking like a cigarette packet. TBH I think it's a good ad, direct-hitting and to the point, and using a well-known reference to another carcinogen, to reinforce it. Very clever, to my mind. I'm very fat and it's not good for me. No, it's not obviously or only "my fault" I guess, but saying that isn't going to make me lighter and healthier, so if the ad spurs me to follow a sort of Keto/Atkins way of eating and shed weight instead of just thinking about doing so, whilst uselessly moaning about being fat and doing nothing productive about it, brill, and well done to whoever created the ad.
• in reply toMaisieGray
I am not sure that agree in the current climate that shedding extra weight is something to be aimed for not because people wouldn't feel better if they did so but because there is not established effective way to do so and is known to create so many problems. I think we need to focus on good nutrician and good thyroid health and eating normally.For me eating normally is a huge gift, being able toleave food on my plate, eating only when hungry, being able to eat only one biscuit in a packet, not being able to even want a big pub meal. Having that diginity means the world to me it has been hard one and is worth more to me than all te weigth loss in the world. I maybe taking my consipiracy too far but the diets that NHS sponser like weight watchers and slimming world have been shown to inaffective for decades so there seems no good rational for paying them and the latest guidesline for thyroid treatment equally without good rational. It make me wonder what is going on and unless we do wonder nothing will change.
I hate any form of scaremongering and worry enough about my weight with out bill boards everywhere adding to my anxiety and as I said whats the point if not effective treatment for obesity established.
I personally do not need hard hitting I need some careful thought to go into my treatment and to be treated with respect and dignity.
Good luck with the keto and get back to me if you lose all the excess weight and keep it off for 6 years.
It's not just about thyroid, either. I've mentioned before on here that when we have low T3, we're likely to also have low Human Growth Hormone, because the pituitary needs good levels of T3 to make HGH. But, it gets worse, because being over-weight can also lower production of HGH (don't quite know how), and low HGH can cause weight gain. HGH just seems to be one long series of vicious circles.
As an aside, low HGH can also affect personality, and make you a nasty person! I always try to remember that when an over-weight person, like the afore-mentioned doctor, are rude to me. Unfortunately, I knew nothing about all that, at the time.
My father was a prisoner in Germany during the Second World War. His diet was incredibly restricted for three years. He had only praise for this aspect of his internment as he claimed it taught him never to over eat. It would be interesting to see if folk in a similar position with enforced restricted diets develop thyroid disease.
An interesting point Baobabs My father too was a German prisoner of war. I don't think his diet was restricted so much as starvation rations at best. He never spoke to us about it, but to a relative he said they would allow maggots to breed on the little amount of bread they had in order to get some protein. He came home literally skeletal and with severe dysentery from which he suffered intermittently throughout his life. He weighed under 10 st through the rest of his life, at 6 ft, but never developed thyroid disease. He ate only very sparingly though, and only if hungry, saying that "you eat to live, not live to eat". Every holiday we took would see the rest of us going into cafes for lunch whilst my father sat outside and waited for us. What I know now leads me to conclude he suffered with PTSD the whole of his post-war life and his behaviour with food was symptomatic of that.
My father said initially the prisoners passed out and lost up to three quarters of a stone then their weight leveled out despite little food. Starvation body mode I think they call it. My dad got out of the camp by working on the bins where German nationals offered him potato peelings to eat.
• in reply toBaobabs
I had a friend whos dad was either lost in Japan or a prisoner in Japan during second world war.Apparently all he had to eat where nuts that he picked off trees for a couple of years.My friend said that when he came back he was over weight, that it was the only time she had ever seen him fat. He went back to working as a butcher and lost the excess weight. I have been wary of nuts ever since she told me many years ago.
Have you read this article? It's rather interesting, I think.
zoeharcombe.com/2009/12/the...
Just what I said above your reply prior to reading your most interesting research article. Greygoose you are a mine of information.
• in reply togreygoose
Yes I have read about this reasurch before although not in such great detail. There is a study center somewhere in America that had been studying all the major diets and the big fads for about 40 years. You can volunteer to got there and be put on a diet and be studied for a few years. They have not found a sustainable one yet and have established the pattern described in the study happens with all sort of diets. They are so awful for your health and sanity.
I keep observing people around me to if anyone loses weight and keep it off long term. I saw lots of people do it in over eater anonymous ( choose you own moderate food plan, the most common being three meals a day, nothing in between and no refined sugar) and I did it myself for 15 years despite thyroid issue but then the weight just piled back on for no apparent reason. OA is very anti dieting and calls it insanity. I also know someone who had tried intermittent fasting 5/2 and kept the weight off for about 5 years now. The interesting thing is that intermittent fasters are now talking about 3 meals a day nothing in between as a way of fasting and it seems that periods of not having food in your tummy, like a few hours are good for micro biome.
There was nothing more hurtful than losing 15 stone in weigth very slowly and keeping it off for 10 years then for no apparent reason rapidly gaining it back, only to find myself being told to cut down, stop binging, your doing it to yourself, there is nothing wrong with you except eating to much by various doctors at the time. That was how I ended up here.
I would not diet if you paid me a million pounds these day because I doubt I would live long enough to enjoy the money anyway.
greygoose• in reply to
In my opinion, doctors should not be handing out dieting advise, anyway, because they know nothing about it. They do far more harm than good.
Doctors should carry a government health warning!
lol Totally agree!
• in reply togreygoose
Some of them should be put down but that wouldn't be nessasary if they had a governing body. I have been thinking about Shipman and I can see that a doctor or nurse could get away with murder and maybe several times without being caught but Shipman was getting away with something no other caring professional could possibly get away with which was getting his patients to alter their wills in his favour. I have known nurses lose jobs and registration over borrowing money for a packet of fags. I would never have dared to accept a fiver neither would the ambulance crews or matron of a nursing home. The GMC must have know first time he did it.
So as far as bad behaviour goes it is a free for all and that includes bad dietary advice, bad care, rudeness and not giving tuppence for their patients.
Hi MaisieGray there are many studies done on prolonged dieting an Thyroid decline especially in my profession in Health and fitness. Bodybuiling competitors tend to suffer with this alot due to the extreme nature of dieting. As far as I have read it takes over 4 months before T3 levels begin to rise again after a prolonged dieting period. Just how long exactly I'm not sure.
hi Karenk13 Thank you, yes there's data on the temporary effects of dietary/calorific restriction on the effective functioning of the thyroid, including of course, the effect of reprioritising conversion to RT3 over T3, as with non-thyroidal triggers such as chronic illness as well as dieting. I was saying though, that there seemed to be no longitudinal studies that looked at whether this apparently temporary down-regulating of the thyroid persisted longer term in some, and/or was or became permanently, overt/clinical hypothyroidism.
• in reply toMaisieGray
I think probably more damaging for your health than anything is the disordered eating patterns people develop, the obsession with food, the binging and depriving, the indignity, the self blame and hatred, the feelings of failure and shame, the depriving yourself of enjoyment. What on earth does that do to your adrenals long term? So if even the thyroid bounces back after a few months the disordered eating tends to be ongoing and very difficault to fix, leading to years if not life times of chronic stress.
Touched on here: bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0006sgv
Yes I’m sure my ridiculous dieting years ago could have contributed. I’ve always eaten good clean food but not enough of it. Wish I knew then what I know now.
Your thyroid downregulates after a prolonged time of calorie restriction this has been shown in many studies especially in the health and fitness world in terms of competition diets for bodybuilding which require them to diet for extended periods of time to low levels of bodyfat. Due to the constant lack of energy being consumed through your diet your body adapts to the situation. The body is a very smart machine and will do what is needed to hold onto precious bodyfat stores especially in women as once you reach the lower bodyfat threshold reproductive systems will cease to work.
It had been shown that after a period of eating back into a maintainence of surplus level of calories the Thyroid function (T3) levels began to revert back to normal levels. Although this was found to take more than 4 months compared to other hormones in the body.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
States of chronic starvation such as seen in anorexia nervosa are also associated with changes in thyroid hormone, GH, and cortisol secretion. There is a decrease in total and free T4 and T3, and an increase in rT3 similar to findings in sick euthyroid syndrome. The TSH response to TRH is diminished and, in severe cases, thyroid-binding protein levels are decreased.
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