Tri estrogen creams

[Jollypolly]

Does anyone know IF and WHERE you can buy in the UK natural estrogen cream ? Does it exist ?

[trelemorele]

Estrogen gel, called estrogel. On prescription only. Yes it's chemically identical to the natural one.

Haven't heard of estrogen creams.

[Jollypolly in reply to trelemorele]

Yes thanks...will look into it.

[FancyPants54]

The only non-prescription product I've heard of would be something like Wellsprings. They make a progesterone cream and another that has a balance of oestrogen in it too. You'd have to Google it, it's called something like 20:1.

[Jollypolly in reply to FancyPants54]

Thanks..I already use the this !

[phoenix23002]

I don't know of a 3 type estrogen OTC but here is one that has estriol estrogen as it's ingredient. Estriol is the mildest estrogen of the 3 that our body produces. Remember, it needs to be balanced with natural progesterone. Estrogen is the fire... progesterone is the water. Our bodies never stop making estrogen, the level just drops low enough that it no longer triggers periods. But we do stop making progesterone... the hormone that we make tons of when we are pregnant.

nhmpersonal-imports.net/aca...

ps... all docs want to do is throw more estrogen at us as we age when that is usually NOT what we need. We tend to be making plenty of estrogen for our age and, in fact, may be suffering from unopposed estrogen or estrogen dominance. Taking more estrogen just throws gasoline on the fire. Have you had labs done to see if you really need more estrogen? Do saliva tests for sex hormones... not blood tests. The saliva ones seem to be more accurate.

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Thanks for this....thing is....I’m on low dose esradiol patch due to un liveable with symptoms since total hysterectomy 23 years ago....

But unresolved thyroid and adrenal problems led me to estrogen dominance..

So recently started using Serenity..but this exacerbated dryness and discomfort ets....anyway...now balanced a bit better...taking lowest dose I can cope with of hrt ..that is 22 mcg patch plus the Serenity....

Have indeed noticed change in mood ..calmer etc,,

But such a job keeping all in balance...thyroid etc...am on NDT..and recently reduced dose down to 1.75 grains as I think the progesterone cream improved things. .had read about natural estrogen creams..tri estrogen etc..and wonders if any;mileage in it for me,,lbit whete to obtain ,.,.anyway.lthats the fist of the problem. Am still spending a penny just a bit too often...1-2.5 hours ! Not as bad as it was when started on Serenity.l.bit darent cut hrt down any more. Hope you understand all this...sorry it’d a bit muddly !

[phoenix23002 in reply to Jollypolly]

Yes, natural progesterone cream can improve things in my opinion. It slowly begins to start balancing all our hormones.... not profoundly but most do notice sleep improvement and improvement in allergies and mood. Progesterone also helps to sensitize all our receptors to all our hormones. Some may even experience estrogen dominance for a few weeks when first starting progesterone. Now this is with the natural... otc... progesterone cream. I have no experience with the oral progesterone or the synthetic progestin. Even tho 20 mgs are the suggested dose, most women do well on just 10 mgs per day for the 10 - 14 days that they use the cream.

Do be careful with estrogen creams especially since you are already on the patch. Is it that you think you need more estrogen? I would suggest using the progesterone cream and giving it time to work. Some notice a difference in a week or less. For others it can take a month or two.

Edit... ps. I do believe that adrenal issues have to be addressed and corrected or everything just seems to go sideways.

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Hi there,

Many thanks for your message...it’s interesting.

I’ve been on the Serenity cream now for a few weeks...six maybe...

My fourth attempt !

The reason it’s been tricky is that I had a total hysterectomy when 45 ..am now 68.... due to Endemetriosis, which I understand is usually the result of estrogen dominance...I only wish I’d known then what I know now..!

Anyway..started on Premarin and eventually moved on to HrT patches...and have for many years been on a 37.5 patch.

If I ever tried to cut this down or cut it out the result was always...

Extreme urinary frequency and vaginal discomfort and dryness,,.

Since starting on the progesterone and With persistence I’ve managed to get down to a 25 patch and generally everything is tolerable but i do spend a penny rather too often.

But clearly I can’t altogether eliminate the estrogen...but I’ve read about these tri estrogen creams...

I don’t mind what I do but I like to try and find the best option...the most natural option..the most effective option.

So I m open to offers !

Everything is made so much more complicated as I have Hashimotos...also I’ve had very poor adrenals for many years.

I have been on Adrenavive for at least eighteen months...this week I’ve slowly weaned myself right off...am hoping all will remain well.

My main problem right now is sleep..I don’t get much at all.

Yet another very bad patch .I think the profesterone cream has improved my thyroid and the thyroid dose is proving too much...this is my theory anyway...and I’m struggling with how much to cut down...I’ve alreasy gone from 2,25 grains to 1,75 grains,l..but now sleeping and quite warm so maybe I need to go further.

One thing is.. my mood has improved significantly.

Is yes...I was wondering about swapping to a more natural form of estrogen..

What I don’t know...

I’m interested in what you say about progesterone dose ..will bear this in mind..

You say 10-14/days using the cream...the recommendation appears to be 21 days and then a break..what do you think ?

Thanks so much ..I’d you want to comment further I’d be grateful.

🌝

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Hi again Phoenix

Please bear with If I’m repeating myself...may I treat this as a fresh message with you please as I’m getting muddled as to what who when etc !

Bearing in mind you words to me here...

Yes..I do wish to be very careful with everything...

I have managed to reduce my Estrogen only patch to half..that is about 18 mcg ...and I know it is still way to much..and we need PHYSIOLOGICAL DOSES OF THESE THINGS...I UNDERSTAND THAT.

so....

I’m noting what you say re dosage of the progesterone cream...why do you say this ? How would one know the right amount ?

I seemed to be fine on my bare 1/8 teaspoon x2 daily of prog cream

But...my main upset today is that over the last two or three weeks I’ve noticed my voice has gone funny..lower and Hoarse and my singing voice is actually just cracking up..as I’m in a choir which starts again soon I’m feeling gutted....I’m now sure it’s to do with the sex hormones,,,I’ve been reading about it. So I’ve come back to your message to me...how Do I know how much progesterone to use..and for how long in a month ?

I’m doing it by the book...books actually...taking five days off a month...while still trying to reduce the hrt...then I want to replace with biodentical estrogen in the physiological dose,..so thought about the Serenity 20-1 cream,,.i just don’t know what to do first..next....etc,..

AND,,I’d stopped my NDT for three weeks as my sleep was so awful...it did t improve ..so was t the NDT as I thought...had today realise temps are still too low..though better...sondexided must resstart NDT,..so this is day three at one grain. Is this too much to start ?

Any help you can give me..I’m grateful ..really !

Thanks..

Marion

[phoenix23002 in reply to Jollypolly]

Hi, Marion... I may be just dense but I didn't understand some of this paragraph.???? what is 't'? for instance............. you wrote the following.....

"AND,,I’d stopped my NDT for three weeks as my sleep was so awful...it did t improve ..so was t the NDT as I thought...had today realise temps are still too low..though better...sondexided must resstart NDT,..so this is day three at one grain. Is this too much to start ? " sleep did NOT improve? and no clue what 'sondexided' is or means.

As for progesterone dosage.... I get a draggy sensation in my lower back when I take too much progesterone and.... I get so sleepy which is why I take the prog at nite at bedtime. The 20 mgs was too much but the 10 mgs seems to be just right. Taking the prog for 3 weeks and taking a week off is acceptable. The break allows your cells to say sensitive and receptive to the progesterone. Avoid applying in the same place over and over so that place does not become saturated. Rotate application sites if using the cream.

You need some labs. Adrenal exhaustion and high cortisol production at nite can make sleeping impossible. Do take the 4 part saliva cortisol test. It can reveal problems. Have you checked your iron, B 12 and D 3 levels? They need to be optimal (not just 'in range'). Have you had your testosterone checked? All your hormones need to be within range .

Don't get overwhelmed. It has taken a long time to get sick and it can take a long time to get better. Just be patient with yourself and study... learn... There are no shortcuts unless you are lucky enough to have site such as this one as a resource.

Don't forget to keep your log, taking/writing down your body temp (take about 3 pm), heart rate and blood pressure if you have a bp cuff. Also write down your NDT dosage and other meds and, most importantly, how you are feeling.

I would suggest that you settle down, map out a plan of action and determine that you are going to stick with your plan for at least several weeks. It can take 2 - 3 weeks sometimes for results to begin to manifest themselves.

1 or 1.5 grains of NDT is just a starting dose. What has been your highest dose of NDT and what were your labs then? So it is doubtful that 1 grain is too much. But wait two weeks after starting NDT again to raise by 1/2 - 1/4 grain. Raise every two weeks or so and be tracking temps/heart rate during this time. If you get nervous, anxious, jittery.... too much NDT. Time to back it down to a previous, lower dosage. Let your temps be your guide. But give everything time to work unless you have negative symptoms.... then back down.

A struggling thyroid can stress your adrenals and the adrenals will 'swipe' hormones from wherever they can grab them in order to take up the slack. Please avoid stress as much as possible, even strenuous exercise can be harmful in the long run. Leisurely walks are wonderful.

Did you say you have hashimotos? If so, there can be hashis 'storms' when, as the body breaks down the thyroid gland, a large amount of thyroid hormones can be released all at one time. The symptoms are hyper-like and can be scary.

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to phoenix23002]

The below is a somewhat easier version, I think!

Hi, Marion... I may be just dense but I didn't understand some of this paragraph.???? what is 't'? for instance............. you wrote the following.....

"AND,,I’d stopped my NDT for three weeks as my sleep was so awful...it didn't improve ..so wasn't the NDT as I thought...had today realise temps are still too low..though better...so I decided must resstart NDT,..so this is day three at one grain. Is this too much to start ? "

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Hi again Phoenix..

Thanks to Helvella for corrrect corrections to my post !

Firstly..I’ve had Adrenal test done about two years ago..can’t afford another yet..but I know I’m not as bad..and Dr Rinds method is wonderfully illuminating. By the way,..thanks so much for replying so fully ..I appreciate it.

Yes..could do with a few bloods really...it’s just...can you get an appt ..? Dodgy...this is NHS remember !

Do I want to explain why I want these tests ? No...I’ve been putting it off !! But I do intend to get down there and request tests at the right time....and I don’t whink it’s quite yet.

I posted on HU because I was having a particularly bad day and I panicked and lost confidence ..but actually...I, largely on the right track I think.

Do you know I’m doing all you suggest...note taking is down to the detail...Dr Rind religiously I’m doing it all..

His method is so illuminating.

But thanks for the thought of restarting NDT st half grain...I had three days at one grain but suspected bit too much so from today half grain..as you say...for week or two...

I WAS on 2.25 grains...

And I don’t think for a minute I shall ever return to that,

As since being on Serenity Progesterone cream..the last three months...I KNOW I have found the missing jigsaw piece,.the reason why NOTHING WORKED DESPITE DOING EVERYTHING ELSE RIGHT.

The doctors who know....Dr Lee ..Dr Shirley Bond...both say that on Progesterone houlll need to cut down your thyroid meds. Even cut it out..and that’s why I ended up on nothing.

But it was too much too quick ..at least ..even though the last few weeks I’ve begun to feel like never before..something resembling normal !

So thanks again for your encouragement ..

I need to not panic I guess and stick with it...

My biggest bug bear is my voice has cracked up and in two weeks want to get back to choir...I’m praying for a miracle !

Thanks again Phoenix..you’re very helpful .

All the best to you

Marion

[phoenix23002 in reply to Jollypolly]

Hi, Marion. Sorry about my confusion. I don't text so.... not very good at deciphering..lol.. With the voice cracking, I was just curious if you had had your testosterone checked. Another thing could be your thyroid swelling???? maybe ??? if you have hashis??? Just a thought. You don't have hashimotos?

Here in the states, we often have to get our own labs done sometimes because our insurance doesn't cover the cost or sometimes because our docs refuse to do certain labs, not seeing the need. You might have to go private testing but I know expenses can limit that option.

I agree that, in Dr. Lee's book, he states that using natural progesterone can make us more sensitive to our own hormones and will start to slowly bring all our hormones into balance. That assumes that our iron, B12 and D3 levels are all optimal. Another reason to get labs done, right? But be patient and kind to yourself. You have taken the most important steps; that is, to take charge, to do your research, to document everything and to reach out to others who are eager to help you, my friend.

ps.... it is not likely that you can ever give up NDT entirely but, in the future, you might be able to get by with OTC whole glandular options like Thyro-Gold and NutriMeds. Do not go that route right now...lol... save it for when everything starts going right.

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Hi Phoenix

That’s ok...predictive texts gets too high and mighty while you ain’t looking !

Anyway...yes...at the right moment I’ll go down the docs and get all the bloods done....can’t fact it at the mo.

As for my voice,,.do you know what ..it’s omly been about the last three weeks..since I completely dropped NDT ....so..I’m back on it. Ow..half grain..I’ll do three quarters next week and one grain the following week...I can cope with that ..I’m used to it..body will soon remember it I reckon .was only without for three weeks!

Interesting last comment Phoenix...but I feel I want to keep life as simple as possible as I find I quite complex enough...it takes all my energy .! If I can eventually get by on one grain, say..so be it...that’s fine by me...but I’ll stick with Naturethroid as it seems to suit me very well. You can understand this can’t you.

You’re a good frien onHU..I try to be also ..I. Always passing on the little bits I know...it’s vital isn’t it...what a great network !

Pity you can’t come round mine and I’d make you a nice English cup of tea..! It’s the answer to everything !

All the best ,..Marion

[phoenix23002 in reply to Jollypolly]

Ah... the 'cuppa'. lol.. courtesy of watching 'East Enders' for years until our public tv dropped it a few years back. Here in the states, my offer to you would be the proverbial cup of coffee or... a big, old glass of sweet iced tea. We are in the south USA so iced tea is a year round treat and served with any and everything.

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Oh great ! I’ll be there bY eleven ! !

So nice to chat with you Phoenix...

And do you know what...I don’t have time today to go into it..but honestly..friend to friend ....I’m learning something new about THE PROBLEM ! every day at the moment.

With having everything as organised as I possible can...notes temps, tracking symptoms etc etc..at last I’m seeing what is actually happening on a daily basis ..and able to see it in the big picture.

It’s actually a journey of personal discovery..and I guess in the personal journey there are gems of principles that will possibly/ probably apply to many others also. I can see it clearly.

I heard on the radio this morning..

To gain the solution , first understand the problem.

Ah..that word UNDERSTANDING is just bursting with depth and meaning...but it’s always overlooked by us all.

If we can get UNDER the problem..I guess it’s the same as looking DOWN on the problem..but as from a height..like an aerial view.

But all this hormonal business sinks you into it’s mirenand you get literally stuck ..and going round in endless circles.

It needs time, books and others hard gained experiences plus your own to clamber UP and be able to see the real problem...

Understanding is ALWAYS evolutionary , isn’t it ?

Have a great day Phoenix

Marion x

[phoenix23002 in reply to Jollypolly]

Wow... to gain the solution, understand the problem. That should be carved somewhere because it applies across the board .. to most of life's problems, in my opinion. Human nature is such that we all tend to 'dive in' without that understanding or.... we 'dive in' demanding and/or expecting instant results and that rarely happens. I am so guilty of that. Just holler if you need anything, okay?

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

You’re a star performer Phoenix..thanks 🤗🥂🇬🇧🤒

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Again Phoenix, thnaks for this..it’s all interesting.

Was thinking of getting sex hormones tested.,,trouble is..I don’t know what I’m looking for..

I have no one to interpret for me..mayb eon Health Unlocked someone may know ?

[phoenix23002 in reply to Jollypolly]

I would highly recommend that you get the book 'What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause' by Dr. John Lee, the originator of natural progesterone use back in the nineties. In the book, he not only addresses menopause but also the role all our hormones play in making us feel good and be healthy. Dr. Lee has passed now but there is a website in his name that has a lot of good information. johnleemd.com/

I am totally useless when it comes to adrenal treatments and protocols. You might check this webpage out tho... stopthethyroidmadness.com/a...

I do know that when adrenals are stressed they will 'swipe' hormones from anywhere and everywhere, including progesterone and estrogen. So... imperative that you find a doctor who is knowledgeable about adrenals and their treatment. You will need to take the 4 part cortisol saliva test in order to tell what is going on with your production of cortisol. Also... adrenals run on salt. Some drink an adrenal 'cocktail' a few times a day in order to help their struggling adrenals. Just add 1/2 tsp or so of organic salt (celtic, Real or pink salt) to a glass of water and drink. Some add lemon juice and stevia to their salt drink and call it lemonade.

Point being, you need to do your research and homework in order to be your own advocate and in order to make informed decisions for yourself. For instance, you need to study about the three estrogen that we make and their differences. There is one that, at our age, we don't need at all.

As for how to take natural progesterone cream? If one has a period, you count the first day as day one. Count for 10 - 12 days then start applying natural progesterone cream each day (usually done at bedtime), 10 mgs daily, for 10 - 14 days then stop. The period usually starts within a day or two. If one is menopausal (no periods) then pick out any 2 week time frame each month and apply the cream daily. As you mentioned, some women apply for 3 weeks, taking a week's break each month. I like the two weeks but, after twenty years... just my preference.

I had ordered the book I mentioned above and a tube of my favorite natural progesterone cream for my sister-in-law who had complained of insomnia (she is 70). She called today and said she slept better last night than she had in a long, long time. I told her way too soon to be having that effect but, she insisted. lol... we will see.

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Thanks again....I do have the dr Lee book actually...it’s quite simply that I get overwhelmed with the complexity of it all...and with all the different things I have to keep on top of ...

Never mind...I’ll get back into the book....

Thanks for all the info....it’s thought provoking and helpful..thanks.

[phoenix23002 in reply to Jollypolly]

You are very welcome..... if you get back into the book, just skip over the complicated, scientific sections for now. You can always go back to those when you have a better grasp of the big picture. So glad you have the book. It is a treasure trove of hormone (and other things) information.

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

😉

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Ps hi again...which is your favourite progesterone cream , out of interest ?

[phoenix23002 in reply to Jollypolly]

Jolly... this is the one I have used since the nineties. It was one of the ones recommended in the back section of Dr. Lee's book (the one you have) and I have never had a reason to change.

heranswer.com/shopping/prod...

It is also available on Amazon here in the states.

You are in the UK and I don't think you have as many choices as we have here. This is one of the progesterone creams from a reputable vendor.

nhmpersonal-imports.net/aca...

If you decide to try a natural progesterone cream like this one, I would stay away from the 'flavored' ones and the pumps. The tubes are better because you can regulate taking less than the recommended 20 mgs at a time.

[Jollypolly in reply to phoenix23002]

Ok thanks Phoenix..

[Angel_of_the_North]

You probably don't want estrone even in a cream, so look for bi estrogen (estriol and estradiol). I used get mine prescribed (now on lozenges) but it used to be possible to get an estriol cream from biovea and probably other places too.

[Jollypolly in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Hi .. thanks .. which lozenges do you mean .. and where to buy etc ?

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to Jollypolly]

My HRT is lozenges now, but they are compounded and prescription only.

[Jollypolly in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Any idea if and how I could obtain similar ?

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to Jollypolly]

Would have to pay for private gyno/endo for bioidentical HRT and choose one who offered a variety of different solutions. I started on cream but that didn't work me, which is why I have lozenges - they smell great and taste foul - and they are sublingual, so its not all joy! Basic estriol cream you can get from Biovea - not a recommendation, just a fact (and probably from some of the places that sell progesterone cream). I have seen estradiol pessaries (vagifem) in some online pharmacies when looking for NDT/T3, so that might be an option. The NHS can prescribe estriol cream (and possibly vagifem)

[Jollypolly in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Hi again...

Do you know of suitable doctors as mentioned ? Where is the doctor based whom you see ?

Bearing in mind I’ve seen three and a half private doctors ! nearly felll for the last one but after a free fifteen minute phone conversation and getting Nowhere I saw a red light..

It all cost lot of money....

And not getting far enough..

So...do you know any you;could recommend ?

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to Jollypolly]

I go to the Marion Gluck clinic in London. Expensive, but worked for me. I think there are plenty of bioidentical hormone doctors in London, but not many elsewhere

[Jollypolly in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Ok thanks for this will look into it .