Dear Endocrinologists: It's Time to Hear What Thyroid Patients Have to Say

I don't recall seeing this recently but I'm pretty sure this will have been posted before and I may even have posted it myself, but I think it will resonate with many of you.

87 Replies

  • But what is in it for the endocrinologists? What do they gain for treating us properly? At the moment there are no penalties if they leave us ill, so why should they bother changing their ideas? In fact, if they treat us with appropriate medication, they can be penalised, like Dr Skinner was.

    I know this isn't what people want to hear but it gives us another perspective. The culture needs to be changed so that the medics are given credit for making us well and penalised for leaving us ill.... Any ideas how to bring this change of tactic about?

    G xx

  • Galathea, Getting patients well is what's in it for most doctors. It's why most go into medicine and it's not like they'll put themselves out of a job by doing it. I acquit any doctor of deliberately keeping us ill but if they listened more to what their patients are telling them, relied less on the lab results and accept that one treatment doesn't/can't suit all hypothyroid patients they might start to *get it*.

  • Hmmm.. As you can see I have hung around on these forums for a long time and am now faírly cynical. I no longer believe that doctors just do the job to get us well, they do it for an easy life, early retirement and good pay.

    I think they need more incentive to get us well..... Like maybe the threat of losing their license or retraining, based upon a yearly poll of patient's satisfaction. :-).

  • I definitely agree with you. It's all about a six-figure salary, easy life, early retirement, like you said. My own GP even admitted as much. He knows I like art and he was discussing it with me one day. Although he loved the subject, "teaching art wouldn't have paid as much [as medicine]" so he chose medicine, purely based on money and not because he felt it was his vocation to help the suffering. Most students who choose medicine do so because they have an affinity for science and/or appeal of a good salary. Unfortunately, 'science types' are most often not a people person and the 'bedside manner' aspect of being a good doctor doesn't come naturally to them, and although some of them try, that's one thing their high IQ can't help with!

  • Part of the problem, the way I see it based on so many people's questions on this forum, is that neither the GPs nor the endocrinologists test for other deficiencies. It's the usual drill here to recommend that people get their B12, vitamin D, folate and ferritin tested. I would consider that IF and WHEN all of these are optimal, if a person is still having symptoms from being on T4 only THEN add the T3. It's not always thyroid and we all know that. And if testing IS done for these, the doctors are oblivious to what is optimal and what still allows the patient to crawl on the planet like a half dead slug.

    I'm sure there are other deficiencies besides the above four that can result in less than optimal health. Like magnesium, zinc, vitamin C, vitamin A and the other B vitamins. Even amino acids in the cases of people who have restricted their diets to their own personal version of vegan or vegetarian may be deficient in the diet. Vitamin K (1 or 2, take your pick) will also be abysmally low in someone who is not eating greenstuff, not eating egg yolks etc. Easy bruising? Osteoporosis?)

    Recently I was reading up on studies of 7th Day Adventists who, mostly, are vegetarian. But if the diet is done correctly, there is actually a reduction in thyroid disease. 7th Day Adventists who eat meat have a higher incidence of thyroid problems. This, to me, indicates, that done correctly, a vegetarian diet can be health protective.

    When a vegan or vegetarian posts their blood test results and folate/folic acid is LOW........ you just gotta wonder, what is this vegetarian diet? You'd assume that of all the B vitamins, folate should be high. And I don't quite buy the hypothyroid/low folate argument. It's a water soluble vitamin and should not be low in a person who is eating lots of green vegetables/mushrooms etc. So clearly the people who report that they are vegetarian are eating some truly suboptimal version of vegetarianism.

    These days it's also common to be low in vitamin C. You'd think that this vitamin ought to be dead easy to consume in sufficient quantities. But alas this is not the case. A study done of University of Toronto students alarmingly showed that many, many students are borderline scorbutic. Wow. That really blew me away. Vitamin C is needed for good adrenal function. (disclaimer: I'm taking 1,000 mg per day and it's doing FA.) For all we know, some of the people who are asking for help, may be low in vitamin C as well. Hat tip to Clutter for recommending Vitamin C to be taken with iron supps. But what about someone whose ferritin is good? Their vitamin C level may still be low. As also their vitamin A. Beta carotene ingestion is not necessarily a good replacement for straight up vitamin A. Conversion is something like 34:1 optimally. Who is consuming enough beta carotene so their body will convert enough to produce 5,000 IU vitamin A per day?

    Then there's iodine deficiency. In Britain the school girl study indicated a huge huge percent (?70+%) of girls are iodine deficient. There may be a percentage of people who are reporting poor thyroid function who are only deficient in iodine and selenium. Or iron, iodine and selenium. You choose.

    Then we need to consider other hormones as well. Is the person low in progesterone? Low in estrogen? Because this will result in feeling like dog poop. People who are perimenopausal or postmenopausal may benefit from HRT. Their thyroid hormone dose may be just fine and result in relatively high fT4 and fT3 numbers but no one bothers to test sex hormones.

    Enough people have posted questions here who are taking T4/T3 or only T3 and they feel terrible. One person whose name I don't remember, posted about how she cleaned up her diet and it took months until she feels well. She tried NDT, T3 and T4/T3 but only felt well when she made a huge commitment to improving her diet.

    If hypothyroidism results in a reduced absorption of nutrients (and I agree, when hypothyroidism is severe, this is valid but borderline situations, I don't think so) then the dose required to improve metabolism to achieve better absorption of nutrients ought to result in subjective improvement.

    It's complicated.

  • Yes its complicated, and everyone's different.

    It upsets me that it doesn't seem to be a doctor's job to spot & treat deficiencies despite the myriad of blood tests taken. In fact I haven't been back for at least a year since he said you've reported fatigue for years, did I want to self-harm? ... just treat the cause of the fatigue (half a thyroid) :x

    I'm one of those who keep harping on about eliminating the main suspect minerals/vits first and many do report improvements, especially for pain - however I note other forums are content with their particular condition and don't pursue ideas to improve their quality of life, we'll talk about anything here! J :D

  • Hear, hear!

    When it comes to eating for health, I will draw the line at goat stomach.....

  • Tripe used to be right popular with northeners - still in doggy food I think. Don't forget rennet is used in (proper) cheesemaking - blessed are the cheesemakers....

    we had a tripe sausage in France - yuk - however tripe tapas in Spain were lovely!

    There's another post on here about the Scots and MS connected with vit D - well the 'old-fashioned' diet contained a lot of offal and oily fish, I can't help but think they'd sussed it out years ago - the Danes still eat a lot of pork (with fat) and oily fish, in fact I visited a seaside town producing tons of fish oil for export.

  • Spare, tripe is still popular oop north. Food programme did a whole programme on it a few weeks.months ago. Very popular with Asian population apparently.

  • Didn't I see Hughie scrubbing & bleaching it? takes hours...

    (hubby a butcher)

  • Spare, yes it's very labour intensive which is probably why it's no longer the cheap buy it used to be.

  • yes a bit of a delicacy now I suppose - it seemed to weigh heavy 'tho, lots of it.

  • Yes, I have a monthly ration of cod liver in it's own oil from Iceland. The cod liver is actually very mild flavoured. I figure, I eat a tin of this (I don't eat all the oil though) and that is a vitamin A bomb.

    There's certain things I eat once a month just to cover all bases, like oysters for zinc.

    Magnesium is a problem. I've done dietary analysis and don't get up to recommended amount from the food. I even seriously wonder if the magnesium from chlorophyll is absorbed in the gut. If I eat lots of spinach or other greens, the poop (scuse me for TMI) is green. That leads me to believe that chlorophyll is excreted unchanged. I take magnesium citrate or glycinate to make up the difference. I think beans contain magnesium but eating beans every day gets to be a bit much.

    Food as a scientific study.... it's disappointing that our diets no longer contain what we require unless we go out of our way to figure things out.

  • I have an Epsom salt bath - a long one, and mag oil, then I put the bath water on my plants - they're really shiny and the roses don't have black spot anymore.

    Well good 'ol Kellogg sells more by adding those essential vitamins to the cardboard (sorry to mention Kellogg).

  • Really? It's good for plants? But this is in the garden not the potted ones? I only have potted plants. I've got two species of Ficus that have their own room. They are taking over. Just potted some sage and rosemary. Hoping for the best. They'll get lots of light and some sun. The cats don't seem to be interested in killing them although initially they were intrigued by the smell.

  • both inside & outside - you can get cheap bulk Epsom salts from garden centres (I get mine from the Equine section - lol!) :D

  • Yes, it's quite something that animals are better treated than we are. But don't forget, animals MAKE money, whether for farmers or racehorse owners. We COST money. We are just viewed as widgets: replaceable. I think so. Especially women.

  • Definitely agree with that comment!

  • Ooooo tripe sausage is gross! We call it a**e sausage in this family, because that's what it smells like! lol

    But, once again, I still think that whatever you eat, you've got to be able to absorb the nutrients. And that's where most of us fall down!

  • Yes, as Hippocrates is supposed to have said "All diseases begin in the gut"

    An earlier post "let food be thy medicine"

    Hubby now converted to apple cider vinegar from omeprazole & ant-acids (and avoids bread/cakes/pastry).

  • Oh, I wish I didn't hate apple cider vineger so much!

    I was a teenager when someone suggested I might like to try it for weight-lose - I was rather... pudgy. As soon as I took the top off the bottle I wanted to vomit. And that's still the case. I cannot bear the taste, so I dread to think what it would taste like!

    That's a good career move on the part of your husband! Full brownie points to him.

    But this still doesn't make much sense to me... I've been hypo since I was a small child, but...

    I was brought up on liver and onions (well, at least once a week). And coconut (mum loved it). She gave me cod liver oïl from day one until I was quite a big girl! I've always eaten lots of eggs - they're my favourite. And our salt came in big unrefined blocks that mum had to chip at with a small knife...

    So, why was I/am I Hashi's/hypo??? It doesn't make any sense to me...

  • Hubby only wets his lips with ACV or puts a drop in a glass of water.

    I don't know why I had a thyroid nodule either, I did go through stressy times when I hardly ate... and looking back at my Dad's family photos I wonder, aunties & gran were diabetic but no mention of thyroid trouble. Dad was the youngest of 8 so I'm not surprised he had his own troubles really (acromegaly). I could never drink milk, so missed out on the iodine? Who knows! :D

  • Nobody knows and nobody tries to find out!

    Yes, the family photos... When I look through mine I think : thyroid, thyroid, thyroid, thyroid...

    Both my grand mothers, my great grandmother, most of my aunts on both sides of the family, my father, my mother... The list goes on. Obviously in the family! And as my mother and father were second cousins, they really shouldn't have married! I got a double dose!

    That said, I just get sick of being told that I have autoimmune because of the way I eat - which is what it boils down to - and I really don't think it had anything to do with me, what I did, or what I didn't do. Just gets annoying, that's all.

  • I do think avoiding gluten can dampen down the autoimmune response as well as upping Vitamin D.

    But just eating in general helps, a lot of folk are afraid to eat!

    But to be honest I don't have much of an appetite and when hubby isn't about I don't bother much... it's just not the same without taste!

  • I agree. I don't have much of an appetite, either. I ate a lot on Holiday last month (not a**e sausage or fois gras!) but that's because it was much better quality food, local, fresh, delicious. Back home it's the same old, same old. Boring. I'm just not interested in eating.

    Gluten free didn't do anything for me. I tried it for a few months. Didn't feel any better, didn't feel any worse. Lost a couple of pounds, but nothing to write home again. So, I stopped bothering. Sometimes I eat gluten, sometimes i don't.

    What I really want is my own personal gourmet chef, to prepare small, delicious, nutritious meals for me. So when I win the lotto...

  • Pigs might fly!

  • I hope not....

  • :)

  • How does apple cider vinegar work since it's an acid? I take omeprazole and gaviscon as I have acid reflux due to a hiatus hernia? Would it work for me do you think and do you have to avoid gluten?

  • Barb, ACV raises low stomach acid. I don't it will be suitable for you as you have a hiatus hernia and need to reduce acid.

    Gluten-free is recommended for people with digestive issues causing bloating, gas, constipation and/or diarrhoea. It can help reduce autoimmune Hashi flare ups and antibodies too, but doesn't help everyone.

  • Thanks Clutter, I have not been told I have autoimmune, but I was told I have hypo and myxoedema. I have also developed an autoimmune disease called mucus membrane pemphigoid over the past three or four years. It went undiagnosed due to my dentist mistaking it for gum disease. This is presently only attacking my mouth but can attack any mucus membrane throughout the body. I have to have regular check ups at the dental hospital and regular optometrist visits too. I don't know if this can be associated with an underactive thyroid. Oh to bee young an fit again, lol

  • Barb, scroll down to read Helvella's post about Hiatus Hernia and hypothyroidism

    I've not heard of MMP but you could Google to see whether there is a hypothyroid connection. Ownership of one autoimmune disease does predispose one to others :(

  • Thanks Clutter, I am seeing my doctor on Tuesday to find out if she can prescribe Armour for me. I have mad loads of notes about all the bloods I should get checked and will ask for them as well. Now I have seen the article about HH and gastric reflux and HT I will ask about changing from omeprazole. (Btw is this a PPI?) I have been taking this for about 25 years (levo for 23 years). Docs will not operate for HH as I am too heavy! I wasn't 25 years ago!!

    Iwill google MMP and HT see if there is anything out there.

  • Barb, yes Omeprazole is a PPI. Good luck at the doctor's.

  • Thanks Clutter

  • I'm glad you haven't seen that doctor again. It's just outright NOT on for a doctor to even suggest that you are self-harming/depressed etc. A post on here not long ago said we should make more complaints because they are supposed to provide a service paid for with our money. It's a bit much when we avoid our doctors because they won't bloody help, but we've all done it when we've received that sort of unhelpful, unkind response.

  • Back in the summer I went to see GP for an increase in thyroxine due to the chronic fatigue and he bluntly accused me of abusing thyroxine to lose weight. I was incensed and came out of there in tears. I only wanted to lose half a stone or a stone just to get back to my normal weight! I did have anorexia 15yrs ago, and as it's in my medical notes, he was more obsessed with that than helping me overcome the fatigue. I then sent a formal complaint in about him and also stated in my letter that no psychiatrist in the land would find me anorexic now as I am within the normal range - only wanted to lose a little bit of weight to get into all my clothes, not to disappear. Nedless to say that's one doctor, I will not go to again

  • Hi Pinkgirl, I understand your frustration - we can be labelled (wrongly) 'for life' it seems, for a variety of ills, yet you can obtain YOUR notes to check, for a fee usually £50 max.

    Good for you not going back to THAT doc - they're 2 a penny after all... x

  • I sent off for my notes about a month or two ago and yeah, it was all on there. I wanted them because as I wanted to check what my TSH, T4 and antibodies were at hypo diagnosis. They had only checked the TSH, no T4 or antibodies, though yeah, the eating disorder was on there. Though, they sent me my notes free of charge:-). All I did was write a letter requesting them. I was expecting a charge as in work when I write to clients docs for there medical notes, there is always a charge, most around 50 and send us a cd with the full history, and some charge a lot more. It was when I was doing benefits appeals work x

  • Pink, it will probably be difficult to lose the anorexia label once it's in your records. It may be better not to mention weight but stress your other symptoms and fatigue at future consultations.

  • Thanks Clutter, I will definitely not mention it to other docs, endos, ect. I know what you mean, it is hard to lose the label. Fatigue is the worst symptom for me as I used to have so much energy x

  • but I don't say anything about depression - yet it's always there... I've never been depressed! a little miffed maybe....

    last time when offered blood tests (tada 'taco belle' lucky me) I said can you add in the depression bloods, just to make sure - ..... knitted eyebrow response... he knew...

  • Spare, I've been on and off antidepressants most of my life but I've never been told that an ailment is due to depression although I have been told it's 'a virus' a few times. Maybe they save 'virus' for psych patients :-D

  • I did go with a virus once - after my 50th/Xmas treat to Paris, had difficulty breathing after 6 weeks - hubby was so poorly he couldn't breathe without wheezing- 2 A&E visits, even had to drop out of fireman training - but we were both 'perfectly normal' tests/help... we've had 'flu before (with 4 kids it was hard taking turns) - & it wasn't that - but symptoms still disbelieved.. I have many, many, more accounts including unrecognised mumps - duh.......

    Yet our old family doc recognised symptoms from mum's phonecall - brought the meds with him & stayed for a cuppa and played the piano..... 1 hour of listening/caring=1 family of 7 sorted for the year.

  • Gabkad, all good points and it is very likely that a lot of health damage has occurred since cooking from scratch went out of fashion plus nutrient depletion in soils has reduced the level of nutrients in foods.

    I assumed I was getting sufficient vitC from fruit and veg but read an article suggesting most fruit was picked before it was ripe to prolong shelf life and was therefore lacking in vitC.

    VitC also binds with thyroid replacement to increase absorbance as it does with iron.

  • I was watching the BBC series Wartime Farm. When meat rationing was in force, someone could get 4 pork kidneys, probably at least half a pork liver for the same ration as two slices of beef muscle. Just consider all the vitamins, minerals and everything else in the pork offal compared to a couple of measly slices of beef muscle tissue.........

    And as you say, cooking from scratch has almost gone the way of the Dodo.

    Btw, today when I went to the local supermarket I found goat stomach, pork 'bung' (whatever that is, looked like intestine), pork stomach, two kinds of beef tripe, beef and pork tongue, pork and beef heart, and the usual stuff like chicken feet. They sell chickens with head and feet on. Pig ears, noses and tails. (At least the people around here in this part of Toronto are eating 'nose to tail' and not abusing the life of the animal that has been extinguished. I'm not bothering to list the usual offal like liver and kidneys, pig feet, cow feet and chicken hearts and gizzards. Or sheep head.)

    The goat stomach looked entirely WEIRD! I've never seen this before.

    I bought whole fish. Just really not in the mood to deal with the offal at the 'mo.

  • Gabkad, my father used to cook cow tripes in milk. I think that's stomach lining, maybe that's what goat stomach is. My sister and mother wouldn't touch tripes but I quite liked it other than he over seasoned it with white pepper. I think it is a delicacy in the UK now but still quite popular in the North of England.

    My Turkish neighbour cooks sheep's head for her family. I get the left over head to scrape the meat for my dogs although I have to admit I haven't been able to on the last couple of occasions and binned them.

    I enjoy liver and bacon but have never enjoyed heart. I had casseroled pig trotters in Montreal. Was scrumptious. I used to eat 'brawn" which was sort of brain terrine and tongue was a delicacy but all that became unavailable with BSE. We can buy 'pluck' which is lamb/sheep heart, lungs, kidneys and liver. I used to cook it for the dogs.

  • A few years ago I bought a sheep's head. I was inspired by Angela's Ashes and other biographical books. Cooked it. Could not bring myself to eat it. Just could not. Maybe if someone else would prepare it. I've cooked sheep testicles and in certain dishes they are okay. But not in soup. I think they are put on skewers and grilled traditionally.

    I do eat stuff made from pig parts, head cheese and such. Not regularly.

    Today I bought 12 large crickets at the pet store for my cats. Just to give them something to do: hunt crickets. Cats are so OCD, they are going to be searching for crickets forever. These things were hopping around reasonably enthusiastically. Just hoping that I'm not woken up in the middle of the night by chirping noises.

  • Gabkad, you let all 12 go? More likely the cats will keep you awake as they destroy everything in the way of catching the crickets. :o

  • Major LOL! My bedroom is 30 feet away down the hall. This is the first time the cats were 'exposed' to crickets. They were a little bit confused initially. These are indoor cats on the 9th floor after all. I did have a bat come in one night believe it or not. It found the way back out fortunately but I had six cats absolutely going crazy for a while. The experience really made me wonder though: I'm not usually awake at midnight and that's when the bat flew into my bedroom. Is this the first and only time? I keep the balcony door open most of the year regardless of weather (unless it's minus 10C or colder.) Seeing as how I sleep like the dead and don't even notice major thunderstorms, it did give me pause. Did the bat live behind a bookcase? Or did it just randomly choose my balcony door? Given there's 22 floors of apartments and this is a huge building, I was concerned. I'd never wake up to six cats going bonkers because of a bat flying around in here.

    Eddie made a quick snack of a praying mantis and usually he'll eat big spiders too. I have a feeling though that crawling insects give them pause because cockroaches exude a stinky something. The upstairs 'slobs of the universe' had an infestation and I ended up with a couple of 'visitor roaches'. Cats won't touch cockroaches so maybe initially they were wondering if these were them.

    Pending nocturnal chirping, I'll consider crickets as a regular item to give them something exciting to do once a week. These guys have battery operated squeaking mice and all sorts of toys, but I thought, let me try something a bit different this time around.... yes, I have lost my marbles.

  • Gabkad, I applaud your decision to entertain your cats but I think giving 'em crickets to play with is verging on decadent. I shouldn't think any self respecting bat would allow itself to be caught by a cat.

    My friend used to cut the 'squeak' out of her puppy's toys because the puppy used to get upset. Apparently they don't understand how it can keep squeaking when they've killed it! Personally, I think the squeaking just got on her nerves. :)

  • My cats, having had rather unenriched kittenhoods, have not realized that dead mice don't squeak.

    My old cats who have since gone to the happy pigeon hunting grounds would swipe under the balcony railing and nab pigeons. I'd come home to discover disemboweled birds on the door mat. The kooky old lady who was feeding them corn has long since gone to the happy pigeon feeding grounds as well. These days we don't have a pigeon problem. We also have an awful lot of falcons, hawks and eagles. (??? Seriously! Downtown the Red Tailed Hawks are making meals of the pigeons.) So even if there would be brave pigeons scrounging around, they'd be 'toast'. Some people are concerned that the bigger raptors can swoop down and take cats off balconies. Seeing as I've got netting and everything to prevent these guys from inadvertently taking a diving course, I don't think a raptor would succeed at taking a cat for lunch. However, saying that, the netting was up when the bat flew in.....

  • Crickey - 6 cats on the 9th floor... well done!

    Despite much fridge-worshipping & praying my cat is still waiting for mouse flavoured cat-food....

  • The deal is they are to keep one another company. Despite all the propaganda about cats being independent, these critters are still expecting me to play with them. And each cat has its preferred type of toy. Worse than children.

  • My friend had snakes, scorpions etc and crickets, as food, they found & lived in the chimney keeping her awake for months - I can think of worse sounds 'tho...

    However I imagine one cricket is probably more nutritious than an apple nowadays....

  • ...........oh dear. Months? I know that at my old place the cricket was busy chirping under the radiator. I even had cats at the time and maybe the chirping ceased due to feline activity... hope so. LOL!

    Giving them a live mouse would be unethical. Crickets are the closest I can conscionably get to provide 'live entertainment'.

    I had been toying with the idea of renting a plot at the community gardens, going out there, releasing a big cage filled with cats so they can jump around, a lawn chair and a book. But the plots are only 600 square feet and planting 1 token tomato wouldn't go over too well with the other gardeners.

  • Gabkad, sow a large crop of Nepeta (cat mint) and your darlings will bliss out and leave the other plots alone.

  • depends how keen the cats are on insects I suppose...

    perhaps they can get onto the windowcil..

    mine is currently sliding off my lap - if I intervene she will invariably attack.... (a rescue cat - then rescued from grandchildren - reared on catnip and white choc - crazy - yet she can fetch...)

  • They really are so individual, aren't they? Fascinating to watch how they interact with one another. All are rescues, none related. My previous cats were siblings and half siblings. When they died at ripe old ages, I thought, that's it, no more cats. Providing all the medical care to keep them comfortable before it was 'time' was thoroughly exhausting both physically and emotionally. But you know, it's very difficult to not have animals around. Home just isn't home without them. My children have pets too. They grew up with animals from birth and they don't seem to be able to live without them either.

  • I have now found a recipe for goat stomach and pork bung is pig rectum. Can be made into 'artificial calamari'...........the things that can be learned through Google.

    Not in the mood to scrape 'turkey towel'... the fuzzy inner lining of goat stomach. Nope.

  • Gabkad, I shan't be asking for the recipes.

  • LOL!!!

    I'm pretty courageous in trying 'new ingredients'. Today was not my best day for venturing forth into the unknown though. Sticking with Mediterranean Sea Bass and Red Snapper this week-end.

    I did cook beef tripe a few weeks ago. Romanian style soup. It was okay. At least I can say I ate it. Not sure I'll be going back for more until amnesia sets in.

  • Gabkad, :-D I'm not keen on slimy textures now so I don't think I'll be revisiting tripe. Sea Bass and snapper sounds good though.

  • What was the post about? I forget.....

  • Roaring laughter.

    Yes, it all got lost in translation, sort of.

    But endos = tripe is a good conclusion.

  • We've eaten it all anyway, in sausages - especially the squeak.

    Dad used to send me to the butchers for pig brains - he'd chop the head there & then at the counter... dad had them poached on toast.

  • I bought mussels earlier this year, I put half of them in a fish stew, then realised that we would be away the next day, so wouldn't use the remaining mussels. we took them down to the sea, I waded in with my wellies on and a torch, tipped them up, they floated then they all let out air and sank happily to the bottom. Dunno why I felt the need to share this. :-).

    G xx

  • Well it fits in with this thread nicely, Galathea. It's gone from endos, to some unappetising animal parts, bats, crickets, cats and puppies :-D

    Did you tell the muscles you'd be back for them to eat them on another day?

  • And most Endos fit in nicely too - most being 'tripe'. Really interesting thread though, and my Mum would have loved it as she loved tripe adn onions and would buy herself some especially as she couldn't get the rest of us to eat them. She also used to buy a Pigs Head and make Brawn from it, which we quite liked if we hadn't seen her taking it all apart first.

  • Aw.. we picked too many cockles and couldn't eat them so took them back, I can't say if they sank happily 'tho, perhaps the seagulls had a free lunch! At least we tried. We cooked 2 fresh-caught lobsters in August - I felt sooooo guilty, but they were lovely and beautiful....

    That's why I have a dog and a cat, there's no wasted leftovers... well they don't like tomatoes...

  • Dogs don't like green peas but cats will eat them.

    I used to play a game with my dog. Put three green peas in his bowl with the kibble and other stuff. At the end of the meal there'd be three very polished green peas left in the bowl. Not even by accident did he eat even a single pea. And he was a really big dog. Weighed 108 pounds, 26 inches at the shoulder. A rescue puppy that fit into a construction boot when I adopted him and he just grew and grew and grew. You never know what you'll get....

    He used to share his leftover spaghetti with my daughter. He never ever growled her hurt the children. She was still in nappies sitting with her legs either side of the dog bowl. It was priceless. He was the best dog in the universe.

  • Gabkad, my dogs work around the peas too. They got eaten during the night but it may have been the cat raiding their bowls.

    They used to enjoy bits of raw veg when I was cooking but went off it as they got older and I'd find little 'stew packs' of veg hidden in their beds. One nicked a bit of onion that fell on the floor as I was chopping. He spat it out and ran around exhaling to blow the heat out.

  • LOL! I guess your zoo get along with one another. Nice to have little beasties around.

    Dogs need more time than I've got. Plus you gotta pick up their poo right away. Um, no. My daughter has a German Shepherd. Mega poo. I'd throw up. At least with cats, a person can wait until the worst is over before scooping the litter box.

    Apparently dogs are omnivores.... I never explored this despite having 4 dogs over the years. Okay, sure, kibble contains rice, corn or whatever. But people feed them carrot and apple and all sorts of stuff. My big dog had kennel cough when I adopted him. He was so sick and weak, he fell off the sidewalk and birds were circling... I had to keep him at home and just take him to the backyard for his 'business' for a couple of months. Then he would drink a gallon of milk per week and pounds and pounds of boiled beef. Maybe that's why he reached his full potential. He grew an inch per week. Not kidding. Everyone loved him. He was just the best dog anyone could ever want. And he was beautiful. Someone dumped him at the Humane Society when he was only 5 weeks old. It's okay. When he was a puppy he slept in my bed so I could take him out to pee in the middle of the night. He lived 14.5 years and for a dog that size, it's really excellent. He never had a leash. We'd go for day long walks and he'd sit at lectures at the university. My professors said he was the most intelligent student in the class....

    The little hyperactive Maltese down the hall runs down to my place and runs circles around the cats. They just sit and stare. It's hilarious. Seeing as how some of the cats weight double that little dog, they are not threatened by her at all.

  • Gabkad, My dogs are very wary of cats after they, and my neighbour who was walking them, were chased down the road by a mean spirited Burmese cat :-D Mad life easier for my tortoiseshell cat who would sniff them when they were asleep but otherwise kept a distance from them.

  • About the green peas mmm. I cooked a chicken dinner on the weekend for a friend, and as I am veggie, there was plenty for my cat. I had read somewhere, in this cat book that I picked up from the petstore, that many people are now cooking fresh meat, fish, veg ect for their cats. So on cooking the dinner, I gave him chicken (which is his favourite), green peas and some carrot.

    The only thing he ate was the chicken lol. For him, think I will stick with the Purina.

    Also, there are 2 alasations in the house, and the male is really fussy and wont eat anything that he does not like the texture of, and the female will eat anything in site.

    I also had a dog when I was growing up, a gorgeous king Charles cavalier and the only thing he would eat was tripe - and it smelt awful. My mum had to dish it out for him, as I could never cope with the smell

  • Pink, dogs can survive on a veggie diet but it will kill a cat. Doesn't hurt to get some veg into a cat though. I used to liquidise veg and gravy to get some veg into dogs and cat and I scoop a hole into a cube of cheese and hide tablets in it if any need medication. The unmedicated animal gets the cube of cheese first so the other one is gagging for his and doesn't suspect sleight of hand.

  • Lol, I like your approach. He likes cheese dreamies, though have been told off by the vet when I took him for his yearly vaccination as he's almost 7kilo and the vet said no dreamies as they are filled with sugar, and he's an indoor cat, and they are prone to gaining weight. With his worming tablets, I get them from the vet and lucky they are flavoured and they look like one of his dry food. Cant get the flea spot on near him and when give him tablets instead in wet food as I try to disguise it, he knows its there and eats the wet food and leaves the tablets. I am going to try the cube of cheese thing as that sounds great. He will never know:-)

  • Pink, I also hide tablets in a lump of pate.

    Flea spot isn't easy with cats. Get it ready to put on. Sneak up on sleeping cat with towel. Straight jacket by now spitting cat in towel and apply flea spot. Release towel and step back quickly :-D

  • I applaud you. That was such a decent thing to do.

  • How about doing a "round-robin" of this to all the Endocrinologists and their Associations, i.e. The ATA, The BTA, RCoP - just a few. Particularly some whom will remain anonymous.

  • Clutter - on the same site here's Tony....

  • Yes, I've seen it, Spare. Seems he's despised on both sides of the pond :-D

  • Tony's latest paper on PubMed is this:

    Endocrinol Metab Clin North Am. 2014 Sep;43(3):781-90. doi: 10.1016/j.ecl.2014.05.006. Epub 2014 Jun 25.

    Thyroid abnormalities.

    Weetman AP.

    Author information


    Thyroid abnormalities and nonthyroidal illness complicate human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection. Among the effects that result from HIV and other opportunistic infections, distinctive features of HIV infection include early lowering of reverse tri-iodothyromine (T3) levels, with normal free T3 levels. Later, some patients develop an isolated low free thyroxine level. After highly active antiretroviral therapy, the immune system reconstitutes in a way that leads to dysregulation of the autoimmune response and the appearance of Graves disease in 1% to 2% of patients. Opportunistic thyroid infections with unusual organisms are most commonly asymptomatic, but can lead to acute or subacute thyroiditis.

    Copyright © 2014 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.


    Graves disease; Immune reconstitution; Infective thyroiditis; Inflammatory syndrome; Non-thyroidal illness; Thyroid function



    [PubMed - in process]

    I find it concerning that in a single paragraph, the abstract manages to mis-spell tri-iodothyronine, and give reverse tri-iodothyromine the wrong abbreviation of (T3) rather than rT3.

    The second sentence appears, by use of the "and other" phrasing, to suggest that HIV is an opportunistic infection - which is not a commonly held opinion.

    Curious too that he is a part of the endocrinology profession that appears to have done almost nothing to support rT3 testing, certainly in the UK. Indeed, it appears to be dismissed as of no interest or use. But somehow he is able to assert that low rT3 along with "normal" free T3 is a result of infection.

    The paper goes on to say "Approximately one third of patients with HIV infection may have biochemical disturbances of thyroid function, whereas only 1% to 3% develop overt thyroid disease." Which again is odd. That is close to or possibly even lower than the range of overt thyroid disease found in the general population (towards 3% of adults in the UK are prescribed levothyroxine).

  • I smell a rat - can we experiment on him please.... (not as cute as your previous wistar rat)

  • Rod, You'd expect PubMed to check for typos before publishing. Surprised to find that HIV can result in low rT3 (as it is rarely tested on NHS but maybe is during research) with 'normal' T3. I thought low T3 was more usually a result of infection and serious illness.

    Looks like we've gone full circle and brought the thread back on topic :-D

  • As far as I know, mostly PubMed simply copy in from the text supplied by the publisher (hence, from the author). I really can't see them making any changes, not even of egregious typos, because what they put up should reflect the actuality of the paper regardless. As authors are expected to proof-read what their publishers put out, before publication, I can only surmise one source of blame.

    The only rT3 testing on the NHS I had seen before was from Southampton.


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