Iodine intake

[naveed123]

Iodine is used in the production of T4 by the thyroid gland.Is hypothyroid patients need iodine? Because they are thyroxine orally.

[marram]

When you take Levothyroxine, you are actually taking in iodine. The Levothyroxine (T4) which has 4 iodine molecules is converted into the form the body can use - T3 (Triiodothyronine) which has 3 molecules of iodine, by removing one molecule of iodine. If you have any function left in your thyroid then it can use that iodine. So, theoretically, you would not need to take in any more iodine.

[naveed123 in reply to marram]

when we eat foods that contain iodine and thyroxine orally .Is excess iodine will harmful for the body?

[gabkad in reply to marram]

marram, that amount of iodine is not significant.

There are parts of the world where iodine is not present in sufficient quantities in ground water to provide adequate amounts for people. Here in the Great Lakes area of North America, it is known as the Goitre Belt. Up until salt was iodized in 1924, 40% of school children had goitres. A huge percentage of men were not accepted into the military in the US northern states because of goitre.

These people did not all have Hashimoto's. They were just iodine deficient.

Iodine deficiency is very common in this world. This is not the same as autoimmune thyroiditis.

England does not cooperate with the WHO in providing information on iodine levels in the population. However, studies have been done on children and especially school girls which indicate that the percentage who are iodine deficient is very high. This has come about because the free milk program has been canceled in schools. The number one source of dietary iodine in the British diet is milk. Iodized salt is not readily available.

In Canada approximately 40% of those over age 60 are deficient in iodine. Approximately 28% of 40 to 60 age group are also deficient. How many of these people are being prescribed thyroxine? We don't know. But more prescriptions for Synthroid are filled every year than for any other medication. What's going on here? So many people cannot possibly have Hashimoto.

Low iodine intake results in IQ decrease of 10 to 15 points. You'd think the government might consider this to be a problem? Low iron also chops another 10 points off of IQ. Zinc deficiency another 10 to 15. Zinc deficiency manifests as an inability to pay attention in class. So how many kids diagnosed with ADHD are actually zinc deficient?

It's a public health disaster. Not just in England but here as well.

The easiest way to determine dietary intake of iodine is to do a urinary excretion test. This test is not standard practice. Mild iodine deficiency results in TSH 3.5 to 5.5. Moderate results in TSH of over 5.5. So unless thyroid antibodies are done to determine if there is an autoimmune disease process going on, it cannot be diagnosed as either Hashimoto or plain old iodine deficiency.

Adding iodine to the diet but not adding selenium causes problems. This is one of the reasons why iodization of salt in a selenium poor region will create problems. Animals raised for meat must be given both iodine and selenium supplementation in the form of mineral blocks if there is no iodine or selenium in the soil. Consequently people who consume dairy, eggs, and meat will obtain selenium from food. And also obtain iodine from food. Vegetarians will not obtain adequate amounts of selenium. Vegans will get neither unless they supplement.

There are a number of people on this forum who are either vegetarian or vegan who have a lot of problems with their treatment. Unless they have positive antibodies present (as in Hashimoto or Graves) then assuming they are experiencing an autoimmune disease as opposed to a simple dietary deficiency is mere speculation.

Doctors clearly are not investigating potential dietary reasons for this health problem. And only people with money can afford nutritional testing and advice.

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to gabkad]

I suspect there isn't much iodine in milk anymore - given cows' diets, and the fact that swabbing the udder with iodine before and after milking has probably been superseded by antibiotics.

[gabkad in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

The published information on milk in England is not difficult to find if you use google. Milk contains approx. 300 micrograms of iodine per litre. ORGANIC milk contains 40% less iodine than INORGANIC milk. (I figure, if one is organic then the other must be inorganic. Yes? No?)

So anyway, sheep milk in England contains far in excess of what is found in cow milk. Greater than 1200 micrograms per liter.

The iodine in milk comes from the mineral blocks which the animals are provided in order to ensure they get enough minerals.

Rod and I have gone over all this months ago.

[helvella Administrator in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

I had thought that swabbing the udder with an iodophor disinfectant had largely been replaced by chlorine-based disinfectants not anti-biotics.

Rod

[helvella Administrator in reply to gabkad]

I actually suspect that what happens to the iodine atoms removed from T4 when converted to T3 is actually a very important part of the whole "iodine economy" of the body. After all, we supposedly have a need for around 150mcg of iodine a day. If we take, say, 150mcg of levothyroxine, that is close to 100mcg of iodine. One quarter of that will be liberated at conversion to T3 (or rT3). A further 25mcg when the T3 or rT3 converts to T2.

Each of those 25mcg amounts is around one sixth of our total iodine requirement.

I have also seen it suggested that liberation of iodine by conversion can be exploited to help control infection in some circumstances - an interesting speculation.

Rod

[gabkad in reply to helvella]

Rod, roughly 150mcg iodine per day is the minimum to prevent goitre. It is not optimum. Just like having a B12 of 200 pmol/L is above range but certainly not optimal.

There is some consideration that low iodine intake is associated with fibrocystic breast disease and uterine fibroids. May not be the truth but apparently large doses of iodine makes the breast problem clear up. Maybe this is witch doctoring.

[helvella Administrator in reply to gabkad]

I only used those numbers as basic description material - well aware that there is much controversy over actual needs.

[gabkad in reply to helvella]

You know how it is these days: we want to have more than a pulse. We want to feel vital and alive and robust and energetic and pain free and .....invalidism was only fashionable for a certain class of ladies during the Victorian era.

Someone who I find fascinatingis Isabella Bird. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabe...

Intriguing how all the wild adventures kept her alive.

[MidnightBlue in reply to gabkad]

I thought vegans can get selenium from Brazil nuts? I am vegan, and supplement selenium only on days when I haven't eaten any Brazil nuts.

[gabkad in reply to MidnightBlue]

It depends on where the Brazil nut has been grown. If the soil in which the tree grows does not contain selenium, then the nut does not contain selenium. Brazil nut trees are grown in many places these days. If you do some research about this you will find out that they cannot be relied upon as a 'for sure' source.

[McNels in reply to gabkad]

Hi Gabkad!

That was very interesting and beneficial information!!

Thank you.

/McNels

[Hidden in reply to marram]

Thanks for that explanation Marram it was clear and very useful and is something I'm often pondering about.

Also with conversion when we are choosing various medication options and doses we read that a normal thyroid produces 80% T4 and 20% T3,but when we take for instance 1grain NDT ( 38mcgs T4 and 9 mcgs T3 x 4) we're not following that ratio are we and of course we don't know what amount of T4 our under active thyroid is naturally still producing either.

[helvella Administrator in reply to Hidden]

It is my view that you cannot take the amounts in tablets and compare them with the amounts the thyroid produces. There will be some relationship but it is easy to over-simplify.

First - absorption. It is often suggested that we absorb around 80% of the levothyroxine and a somewhat higher percentage of the liothyronine (T3) we take. That pushes the balance towards even higher T3 levels.

Second - conversion. We understand little about precisely what controls conversion of T4 to T3. But it seems likely that if there is more T3 in the system, then conversion will slow down. That will tend to compensate for any apparent excess of T3 we might take (up to a point!).

Third - the amount the thyroid produces is only one part of the equation. What also matters is how much T3 is formed by conversion in the liver, kidneys, skeletal muscle, etc. If that conversion is not working right, then the amount of T3 we take needs to compensate for that reduced conversion as well as the amount produced "normally" by the thyroid.

Even now, I feel that is only scratching the surface. Perhaps a T4:T3 ratio close to that produced by the healthy thyroid would be appropriate for those who have no other issues than insufficient thyroid hormone production?

[Heloise]

naveed, it is still rather controversial whether iodine supplementation is bad or good. Some feel if your thyroid is being attacked by your own immune system as in Hashimoto, the iodine will make it worse.

iodine is a very important mineral for the body and is being depleted from the soil and if you rarely eat seafood the only supply left is iodized salt which is minimal. Possibly iodine would help if that is why you have low thyroid. Other reasons are that other halides are replacing iodine receptors and those are bromides and fluorides which are unfortunately found in more abundance than iodine i think. This article mentions both minerals.

stopthethyroidmadness.com/s...

[jaxnbreeze]

That's very interesting, thanks for the info. So as I don't have an auto.immune disease the chances are that I am deficient in iodine and possibly selenium. Have I got that right?

[gabkad in reply to jaxnbreeze]

jaxn, check if there is any means by which you can get iodine and selenium excretion testing done. That's the most reliable means of finding out.

If you don't drink milk or eat any significant amount of dairy, don't eat eggs or meat of any kind, then there is a possibility that your intake is low or very low.

There is a lot made out of 'if you don't have antibodies, then you probably still have Hashimoto'. In a country where iodine deficiency is very high, why would this be the default? That is speculation. (I read a study from India testing children in an area where only iodized salt could provide sufficient iodine. Parents weren't buying it because it's more expensive. The TSH levels and iodine excretion corresponded to the figures I wrote in the above post. Children whose parents used iodized salt had TSH below 2.0 and their iodine urinary excretion indicated they were getting enough iodine. Well for sure all those children with high TSH didn't have Hashimoto!)

My friend tested TSH 5.2 in the late afternoon. Her TSH would have been 6.5 to 7 if her blood had been taken at 8 a.m. based on how this fluctuates over a 24 hour period. I asked her to take iodine and selenium because her diet is not particularly good. 3 months later her TSH in the morning was 2.85. Not fabulous but certainly better than it was. Now she's seeing an M.D./Naturopath and this doctor has also diagnosed her with low B12. (Despite the fact that she has been taking 5,000 mcg methylcobalamin sublinguals. Her mother has PA so there's a possibility that she does also.) Ferritin is probably low too. This and TSH, fT4 and fT3 will be done next week. Now she's on progesterone and estrogen (age is 46) and she finally sleeps well.

So there can be many things going on at the same time just that it seems NHS doctors do not ask about diet, do not test iodine and selenium urine excretion, do not test female sex hormones,,,,,,,,,, the list goes on and on. Many things can factor in to why someone feels unwell.

[Hidden]

Thanks Helvella.........once again you are giving useful information.It all helps in trying to understand the complexities of the under active thyroid.

It emphasises to me why absorption/ conversion etc..for people experimenting with trying to get their medication right for them is a very individual thing and I can understand why my Endo goes more by how you feel than by scrutinising blood test results.

Yes I am fortunate that my diagnosis was primary Hypothyroidism .....much less to deal with than many have to cope with.

However,at 73 yrs old I'm still somewhat wary of overdoing the T3,so your thoughts on conversion are useful.

My Endo has indicated that he will be willing to monitor me on Armour thyroid,though he can't prescribe it,so at the moment I'm trying that.

I have been on T4/T3 combo but when I said that having been prescribed T3 Liothyronine I was disappointed to find that it has virtually the same fillers as MP Levo.he nodded in agreement.

Last week I at last received the result of a knee X-ray taken on 28th July,which needs interpreting so am seeing my GP on Tuesday.

When I tried Armour back in June my joint pain almost disappeared so am hopeful it may be the way ahead for me for a while.......we shall see.

Anyway,thanks again for your lengthy input.

[belwom in reply to Hidden]

Marfit, you have a very good and enlightened endo if he is willing to take into account how you feel and monitor you on Armour rather than just going by blood test results. Judging by my own experience and that of other people on here, this is the exception rather than the rule.

Could you please advise me by PM which endo you are seeing? Many thanks.

I think Dr P-D is right when he says in his book that blood tests have made cowards of doctors: they are frightened to rely on their own evaluation of the patient.

Interestingly, I understand from my sister in Belgium that the NHS there has recently told doctors they should learn to make independent diagnoses rather than relying on blood tests for everything. While I suspect this is due to cost considerations, there is an element of truth in this. Blood tests should not be a mere substitute for doctors' consultations.

[belwom]

Very interesting dialogues about iodine/selenium and T4-T3 conversion. I have just read an article in the Belgian press about the deficient iodine status of the population in Belgium. The government there are said to be considering salt and bread iodisation. I don't know if and when this will materialise but as iodine and selenium work synergistically, one would hope they would be supplemented together.

On the subject of autoimmune thyroiditis: I had massively raised antibodies as diagnosed with a private blood test. The next time this was tested at an NHS hospital, there were none present. GPs rarely test for antibodies anyway or the labs refuse to do it, so we often don't know whether there are autoimmune reactions or not. Also, the attacks can be intermittant until the thyroid is spent and as we know we are contending with the protocol that treatment is considered only then.

[Angel_of_the_North]

It's fairly easy to get iodine from sea vegetables even if you don't eat dairy - you only need a small amount of kelp, wakame or dulse.

I'm also surprised that the main source of iodine in the UK isn't cod and chips (or perhaps we all eat curry and chips instead these days).