I must share this theory with you, hypo folks

[ivy77]

Only 3 weeks ago, i was here trying to get some info on t3 therapy, since i posted my 2 charts, and this is mind blowing for me!!i finally understand all the numbers so here it is only logic and my experience and a book that was sent from God via gabkad

Lets see the logic on TSH

1.Forum people: high tsh number definitely points to hypo, low TSH or supressed not important

Weill this doesnt fit the logic, and this bothered me for a long time, since i was hypo for years and my TSH never went higher then 4.6, and was most of time below 4 , i know how this TSH bullsh.it, is something that made many people miserable, but the same way this is valid for higher TSH, should be valid for lower TSH if we follow logic right? Yes

The outliers are only those Some people with normal TSH numbers :1 to 2 that suffered depression, sleeping problems, PMS, memory problems, osteoporosis, menopause etc you name it!!on normal TSH

Lets say the fact that phisiological levels that normal thyroid produces are 100t4 and 4_6 t3. This is a fact and i was looking to incorporate it in my experience.

TSH that is very low is pointing to hyper as well as high tsh number is pointing to hypo

It goes this way, when you take t3 only...and most of people are on doses like 20 mcg, or more.....how your blood picture will look like?

You will and up with supressed nonexistant TSH, normal or high t3 and below t4 number, and you will think this is ok?

Its not. Taking t3 in doses much bigger then 6 mcg is warranted for special cases only, body recognisez well that you are overmedicated and TSH goes to 0 almost.....T4 gets depleated becasue the body is trying to fight against too much of t3 in blood by converting t4 to reverse t3, this is what body does! So when you overmedicate with t3 you will only see low t4 number, and supressed tsh, no rt3 as when you take too much t4

When you take too much t4 what you will end up with is supressed TSH , below 1, high rt3 and low t3 number!!

If you take 300 t4 this is only 3 times the amount your thyroid produces normally, if you take 25 t3 this is almost 5 times more then your thyroid produces, so no wonder that patients with even 25 mcg t3 dose experience very supressed TSH!!! And get low ft4 number

My theroy is no overmedication is good, neither too much t4 nor too much t 3 , physiological levels of thyroid only should be followed as guidance,

There is a test that shows how functional thyroid is mine was 50%, and when i figured out the data, it turns out my ideal sweet spot would have been 65 mcg t4 and 2 mcg t3 max.....

I ended up at 150 t4, then tried 100t4 plus 25 t3, it was poisoning me......and now i am close to beeing finally treated well, feeling great at 100+4 ...but too early to tell, but this is my theory , that fits the book i read, and i wanted to share it with you

For some time i wanted to believe 25 mcg of t3 is ok, it fits total body production

MY CONVERSION FROM T4 to T3 was never a problem, it started to be problem on too much t4 ,

So majority of people should stay at doses lower then 100mcgt4 and just small t3 ...and that is it....

This fits the logic, all the numbers i saw here and most of all all what i have testee on my own skin

I can confirm 25 mcg t3 is such a stress for heart, even 12.5 may be if you are not taking enough t4 that will compensate for it by making rt3......

I wanted to share this with you, it was mind blowing for me that i finally found an answer that is logical in every aspect...

I can not comment on 20% of patients who do well on t4 only..

But one thing for sure people with TSH around 100, feel less hypo symptoms becasue higher TSH helping to convert t4 to t3 in the cells, and my chart 2 shows the connection between ft3 and tsh, the higher tsh the better the conversion the lower tsh the wors it is.....

So TSH is good number, when you know how it works and is logical, in most cases

But the mess around treatment is understandable now, it follows the more the better and creats so may problems of overdose and noone takes mid way to both, and rare doctors know how to treat it, the book was written by man who did 33 years of treatment hypo, and is MD, i did not read it all, but i wanted to share my theory and what i read there!!!

I very much believe in logic, since this is only how i understood i am misstreated on my 150 mcg therapy.this made it all fit in perfectly, i was searching for it, stuck at some wrong ideas but this finally feels complete and logical, outliers must be explained differently, i cant do that

[nightingale-56]

So glad things are working for you Ivy. Could you please let us know the name of the book and who the author is?

[ivy77 in reply to nightingale-56]

Dont worry things can work for you too!!just have to give it a try..the book is called functional approach to hypothiroidism...by doctor blanchard......everyone should read it, i just started but....since he adressed everyting i was thinking about a lot, it resonated so much with my experience that i was amazed!!! Lol i even left a comment on the book, havent read it until the end, but i could not wait it all dawned on me!!!

[nightingale-56 in reply to ivy77]

Thank you for this information.

[Heloise in reply to ivy77]

Did I post you the videos by a functional neurologist? I do think they are the most helpful....better than endos.

Here is one if I didn't.

youtube.com/watch?v=qYeFh06...(Not working as expected?)

[ivy77 in reply to Heloise]

I did watch that i watched more the 50 hours of those sort of material...tried everything they said, nothing worked nor explained it so well, i know how i will treat my brother i am his doc now, make scintigraphia and see what % of thyroid not working this is what you must supplement by hormones not more, in normal people....no other issues....

My brother has all symptoms of hypo and tehy call him subclinical although tsh 3 and higher on many measurments like 5, 6......and i think he may need only 12 mcg t4 and maybe some small amount of t3 he was on 25 mcg t4and had all symptoms of hyper!!! He stopped taking the pills, and his symptoms of hypo are so freaking obvious for years ......

Prove my 100 mcg wrong or better give your theory that can explain low tsh in people who take s

20_30 mcg t3 meds, its nonsense, they take 7_8 times more then body needs, and it shows in TSH, noone takes 500 t4 so it cant surpress tsh that low still it can..and explain me the post of a guy who was 2 months on 50 mcg t3 and got poisoned by it, hyper for 2 months poor man!!he lost his vision!!.....this is serious stuff that t3 and conventional docs are right i always knew the truth lies in the middle, i am so happy i found it finally

i wont question what i feel nor what i ahve gone through, i KNOW ..payed huge price for that.....i am like a guy who made 1 mio dollars and never went to university lol, would you trust me or someone with medical school who has no thyroid experience i took 85 plus 3 mcg today its fabulous!! ...time will prove it more but i did not want to wait to tell you this

[Heloise in reply to ivy77]

No Ivy, this is good research, personal experience can be a great teacher. My son is actually a bio medical research PhD and I wish this were his area. But he is working on Sickle Cell and blood purification at the moment. He also went through a period of hyperthyroidism but seems to be in remission.

I'll assume that it is correct to think that 100 mcg. of T4 is the correct output one way or another, either exogenous or naturally produced. I'll reread your theory. See, I'm open to new discovery. We'll put you on the cover of Time Magazine, teehee.

[ivy77 in reply to Heloise]

Lol i feel like this now , like i climbed the mont everest hahahah, its really big time AHA moment for me!!the thing is its such a subtle nuance , patients loos memory of how it all should look like, beeing on 25 t3 i had to try it, to know all of this!!!plus the book, that man has 33 years of practice

i went through several periods of hyperthyroid while i got to 150 and lost obvious hyper symptoms, lack of energy comes from too many hormons too, ft3 number and tsh can be good guid if you are overmedicated that you dont even feel it anymore, just still having energy mood issues and brain fog! Trust me , my 15 year hypo + 3 years treatment ....so happy i payed for all my labtests this is what made me see!!without any medical background, am an economist

[ivy77 in reply to Heloise]

Cortisol is an issue for hypo people becasue it needs to balance out blood sugars, many people said if you dontnhave good adrenals you cant take t3 therapy...so true becasue t3 messes big time with blood sugar!!affects systolic blood pressure and makes it higher while the other one lower.....so its true i wonder there are people who can endure such situations...and for me its no wonder cortisol beeing elevated until adrenals simply burn out......from too much stress trying to balancee blood sugars out......too much t3 meds makes high cortisol, so many t3 patients must take one dose before night so it makes them so tired that they sleep eventually..........they sleep from utter exhaustion..they are constantly on high drugs

[Heloise]

Hmmm, I'll be interested in what others think. I stopped when you said the normal output of T4 is 100 mcg. I had read only one time, since most experts don't even mention normal output, that average normal output is 325 mcg. and over 90% of that is T4. Would that premise still work with your numbers?

[ivy77 in reply to Heloise]

If its 325 it would not work, but i think its a wrong premise, i have my numbers that clearly showed after i went 75 mcg t4 my body was starting to be clogged up, and it fits with the functionality test i did, my thyroid was around 50% functional....and i never understood why my doc is not using that piece of info....

This book i read confirmed my experience , this guy has medical practice, it just all fits.....

I know my body doesnt produce more then 100 for sure, i have it in my charts....at 150 i was heavily overmedicated on t4 and the new doc i have now confirmed it too, so i have several sides that point in the same direction...

But doesnt my explanation explain majority of numers you ve seen here, for me it does, pls read it it may be so helpful....i came to here with help of gabkad....and this forum so felt i need to share it.....i owe it to you, i am thrilled lol

[Heloise in reply to ivy77]

Okay, okay, lol!!!! I'm so glad it is working. Let us know if it is still working in a few months. Treatment can be very fluid (not literally for the first year I think.

[ivy77 in reply to Heloise]

Hehehe i so much agree, but i think this is it, too many things just fit in perfectly, i know you cant believe me after so many missinformation .....but i trust my logic 100% this is how in 2 month only i came to this all...just folowing logic, i hate illogical things

[shaws Administrator]

This is how good Doctors help their patients recover:-

web.archive.org/web/2010103...

[ivy77 in reply to shaws]

taking only t3 is the same dogmatic approach as taking only t4.....there is no widespread problem of conversion!!but there is widespread problem of overmedicaton on t4 which makes people sick!so they go to the other extreme, t3 only! He is no better then wilson

I honestly wonder people using t3 did not notice how it messes with hungar, blood sugar, and heart......and makes you feel like surreal, like something you have never been before its like drugs...tempting but i just wonder what are long term consequences of such therapy.....it may affect bones, heart and who knows what else.....

I tried taking 25 mcg t3 and what i have learnt there is worht million dolars for me

This doctor is as good as mine previous, taking unbalanced approach, t4 exists because it is important for something

[Hennerton in reply to ivy77]

Ivy, I definitely find this theory very interesting but does it apply equally to people who have had TT and therefore have a broken feedback system between the pituitary and thyroid?

[ivy77 in reply to Hennerton]

Hm not sure, but i know several people who had TTand none fo them are on doses higher then 100mcg t4, lets say i would assume this may be valid for a lot of them too, but ofcourse there will be special cases.....i wanted so to help average hashi like myself .....and then i became nonconverter because of overmedication with t4, am lowering doses now and guess what : i am like beeing hyper on lower doses, sleep max 6 hours per day .....like i walk naked now....like 50 kg went off my chest lol, i cant wait this comes to stable, taking off from t4 not easy as well

[shaws Administrator in reply to ivy77]

Ivy, with respect

Getting well is the main priority and whatever suits you, that's the one that's best and I am glad you have found a solution.

The problem nowadays is not overmedication, but undermedication or undiagnosed. Patients aren't allowed to get to an optimum dose.The experience for me on Levothyroxine, either in a low dose - 25mcg or higher the effect was horrendous.

We are dictated to by the reliance on the whereabouts of the TSH and it may be years before it reaches a decimal point that makes the GP prescribe by that time the patients have many other health problems.

Dr Lowe didn't use only T3, it was used for patients who didn't get well on NDT.

They also followed a full protocol of supplements. I can take either NDT or T3 and both have a good effect and give me normal health. Before being on T3, I didn't understand 'the effect on the tissues' but I definitely do now.

Levothyroxine, in scientific studies was found to be harmful for many.

web.archive.org/web/2010073...

The phrase you use about affect on bones etc, heart is scaremongering etc. particularly for people who are trying to recover their health. Many of the Endocrinologists use the same ploy not to, at least, let the patient trial anything other than use levo.

I have completely normal, good health on T3 alone, no palpitations which I had constantly on T4. I also am well on a particular NDT but I tried a few and one was best.

Dr Lowe's CV is exemplary and he published many scientific documents and has awards and was also an Adviser to Thyroiduk.

If we do not have sufficient T3 reaching our receptor cells, our bodies cannot function. It is the Active hormone against T4 the inactive hormone. Some people do get well on levothyroxine and it's obvious that our bodies are individual and react differently to medication, whether it be paracetamol or aspirin.

[ivy77 in reply to shaws]

Dear Shaws, you got me completely wrong here, i said many times i think combo therapy is standard for majority, just the dosage is a problem what i see . Also i do know there will be outlier cases , maybe like yours, i am in surprise of that to be honest .....but def give option for it. This was intended for majority since i think i am not an outlier but i shared the same problem as 80% of patients on t4 only.

i tried t3 on my own skin, and i can confirm it messes with a heart, and blood sugars. I ve tested it so i dont need any doc or research to read it, and have read many that say it does,

I know from theroy and my own labs, what body is doing is it will fluctuate more easily ft4 lvl but not ft3! ft3 is sacred it is very stable , becasue heart is sensitive to concentrations just small chnages of it!

Also i measureed my blood pressure it was all over the place,' something i never had before, high systolic....

This is all from my experience and logic, now i get it why conventional docs dont subscribe it, they are not idiots, they are right its potent stuff and must be used wisely

I did not have palps either! beeing on t3 but i had chest pain, and pressure around heart, vommiting feeling, dhiarread feeling, all symptoms of heart.....another woman here came with exacyly the same thing, this is work of t3 , my docs did not make fuss, and i think staying on that 25 mcg would be devastating, my body temp rose , and my hungar was unbearable...so i lived through that whatexcesses of t3 do to blood sugars, one member here even measured it and confirmed this for me too, and

I would think you can not be taken as average hashi patient.....the problem of so many non converters is too much of t4......i became the one on 75 doses and higher, and i was perfectly happy converter at lower .....

Another part of the problem are those docs that ignore Symptoms and Elevated TSH all ove 2.5 probably( look how ATA recognised this! So not all stupid they are gettingnthere slowly), and that has nothing to do with the above its completely separate thing!

I just summed up what i have seen here, and my experience, and its not fair to think if you are an outlier case maybe to advertise this protocol for majority , when with me it made no sense at all, and i doubt i am an outlier i had all responses to meds as conventional medicine explains, we can not override everything that is researched and tought by conventional protocol, there is reason why they are sensitive about t3

But what surprised me noone took the midd approach! Both sides are on the extreme, t4 only, t3 only, and now i think i know why, becasue of huge missunderstanding, one needs just tiny amounts of t3, they are safe, and they work!

I followed logic, tell what part of the above is not true and i may believe it esp on the blood numbers

Anyway this was written to warn people t3 is not piece of cake....for an average hashi....just common sense , middle path, and logic

[shaws Administrator in reply to ivy77]

Having hashi's must make a tremendous difference as you are on 'swings and roundabouts'. With me - just being hypo - it is easier.

The best reason is, listen to your body, and it tells you what suits and what doesn't.

We do have to read as much as possible and it would be so much easier if one pill fitted the bill for everyone but, unfortunately, as we know it doesn't. Doctors and Endos don't know this. Also some people have adverse reactions to medications and you do appear to be one of them re T3.

The main object is to get well - I had many visits to the A&E (also by ambulance) before and after being diagnosed and being on levothyroxine. On T3, I haven't been near a hospital - am happy, painfree, palpitations free and have energy and hope it continues.

[ivy77 in reply to shaws]

Btw hashi is a nonsense too, this is all just hypothyroid issues, i was on no swings, i was constant hypo! i did not have antibodies as well.....but i would get one if i would overexercise, this is what thyroid busines is about spendingmmore energy then you take!!eating bad food for years.....autoimune, hashi lables are just bull.sit

There is no step forward without establishing standard protocol that would work for majority and this should be a goal! And it can be, because saying we are all that different that standard protocol can not be etablished has no evidence in any area of research and makes no point in doing all those researches if everyone is just different , you guys here miss on logic a lot

[ivy77 in reply to shaws]

Yes interestingly i had palps on t4 too at the beginning, but very mild one, nothing to get worried about...on t3 i had high heartbeat, and i do think i am average patient ,and you an outlier lol...

[Hidden in reply to ivy77]

I really do feel that you come out with some nonsense sometimes. Will now avoid all your posts.

[ivy77 in reply to shaws]

What is your blood pressure like on t3 only, heart rate, and appetite? Just curious...i am very surprised of people who can take high doses of t3 and experience none of the above what i experienced, i had constant pressure around my heart, going to the left arm, under armpit, and some strange sensations in chest, even sharp one off pain...my blood sugar was going to such rollercoaster that this is how i would imagine perfect hell: eating like an elephant, and still feeling very hungry...etc.....

I did not have palps as well, but my heart rate was aroun 80 2 hours after t3 and 6 hours after t3 i would dive into hypoglicemic hole, i was starving to death, to the point of getting panick attack...something crazy

Also in just 15 days my short term memory was showing signs to be affected....

Then the man who came here saying he doesnt see well , beeing 2 months on 50 mcg t3.......t3 is not candy ..and should not be advertized as safe standard protocol in such doses, this was the aim of my writting

[shaws Administrator in reply to ivy77]

My blood pressure is perfect. Pulse good, around 65mcg to 75mcg. (one pulse on levo was 145 bpm and of course I had to take betablockers too).

As I said above levothyroxine had a devastating affect on me, and it doesn't with others. T3 is very safe, after all it is only a hormone, albeit the active one. Any hormone, if it is too much for our body, whether it be 1mcg or 10mcg or 20mcg will have a bad effect. Cytomel (T3) says this on its leaflet:-

"NO COMMON SIDE EFFECTS HAVE BEEN REPORTED with the proper use of this medicine." (Medi-Span, Inc.: Database Version 97.2. Data © 1997.)

This statement makes a fact perfectly clear: When used sensibly, T3 is extraordinarily safe among prescribed drugs

So Ivy, we will close this thread and I do hope you recover your health soon.

[shaws Administrator in reply to shaws]

I forgot, my appetite is normal and I have been lucky not to gain weight. I didn't gain weight on levo either.

[ivy77 in reply to shaws]

Yes the stress is on the PROPER use of t3.....my theroy is: safe is not moving too many multiples away from physiological lvls!!....noone ever tried the small doses!so thats why they did not conclude its ok.6.25 even is not small dose its above 100% thyroid production, small dose is 25 to 50 %

[ivy77 in reply to shaws]

I can not agree with you, t3 is not very safe as levo...for 89% of people....

T3 is the hormone whose lvl is highly regulated by complex mechanism in body and kept with very low variations, becasue it affects heart

And it can not be used insuch ridiculous doses like 50 , 100 as safe for 95% of people...majority of people can get to 20 mcg of t3 only

Also if t3 taken in combo with t4, t4 makes it less potent! Thats why you see overmedicated patients big time ...whos both t4 and t3 are up in the sky just becasue they balance out....i think the same can be done in much more safe way, and on standard protocol like this doc described...then if this not work try other

[greygoose]

Ivy, for goodness sake! We are all different. lol Your theory might work for you, and I'm pleased that it does, but it won't for everyone. You must not be so dogmatic, and allow people to do what's best for them without trying to put the fear of god into them!

The link between the pituitary and the thyroid is broken the minute you start thyroid hormone replacement therapy. Therefore the TSH means nothing in relation to the way people feel. The TSH is just there to regulate NORMAL, working thyroids. Suppressed TSH is indicative of hyper in people who take no thyroid hormone, but not in people that take any form of thyroid hormone replacement.

Hashimoto's is a real disease and it does have swings. These swings can be hourly, daily or weekly - we're all different! - for me the swings were lengthy and I enjoyed a lot of 'normal' time - years! - between the hypo and the hyper and back again. I have had it all my life and had about four or five swings until the final dive, at the age of 55, into drastic hypo with a gland that bearly functions (but not quite dead!).

I have tried T4 only, T4/T3, NDT of various makes, but I cannot take T4 in any shape or form! I have been on very high doses of T3 - 200, 225 - now I don't need that much and am happy on 100. But I wouldn't be happy if I had to lower it the slightest little bit. There are people like that and your 'theory' just doensn't fit them. Or me. Sorry.

I know you only want to help but you are a bit scary at times. lol And calling people's high doses 'horse' doses doesn't help. You must accept that we are all different, we don't all fit into one mould, and we all need different things.

It's wonderful if you have found what suits you best. But it just wouldn't suit us all.

Hugs, Grey

[ivy77]

Grey, you missed it completely, i am not covering outlier cases here, just normal hypo, hashi patients,

You dont really think you are the norm? Or if we all would be offered 100 t3 we would solve our problems?? Do you think your treatment would help much more people then this i talk about?

if we are all different then there is no point in improving thyroid medication by making a standard protocol that can cover majority of patients and offer good treatment, not experimenting on every patient! What doctor can know that? Then we should all medicate ourselves in forums .... ...my analytical mind just dont find logic in dogmatic approaches,

there is a theroy i offered:-), you offer better and let it cover main stream happy to read it, mantra is: everyone is different and i heard it from my first doc too!!its an excuse for not knowing what you are doing and having no theory that works for majority, since that should be the goal...if its not then no research on anything in human body is useful, since we ARE ALL different tell me how different your genomemis from mine ..its more simmilar then different....

A good theroy is no threat to outlier cases! And this is just my post and noone should agree, but i was expecting more of facts from all of you , discussion in the right direction then offering some poetry id ont really care about

its only good people differentiate average patinet from an outlier on 100 mcg t3.....overriding blood test results saying low tsh and low ft4 on t3 meds is normal is just too much of nonscientific dogmatic approach for me...just not balanced, the balanced approach is what i looked for no extremes, outlier cases are just that, and should not be used for treating average Joe

I am just the one here , i find this forum scary at times i know how it is when someone tells the truth and it frightens you......this is good those who know what they are doing would understand they are outliers and be happy with it.....but to know you are an outlier, standard protocol must be known...you cant expect all world to be treated with 100 t3 just becasue you are, what about the guy who was poisoned by 50 t3 following ide from this forum .......who cares about him? I do.

You just tend to miss so many times i saidthis is valid for 80%.you may be the 5% one....