If I decide to self medicate with armour how do I work out the dosage?

I saw a post from someone who gets their dessicated thyroid from America, I have sent a direct message but not had a reply yet... My question is, is this website legitimate? It's look like it obviously buying online is risky. If I go ahead how much do I need? Different websites say different things I'm on 125mcg of levothyroxine and 30mcg liothyronine (t3) thanks for your help!!

[susymac]

Cant advertise companies on the forum so cant ask nor can you say which online site you are considering using to know if its legitimate or not. However, there are legitimate online export pharmacies,in America and elsewhere, who can sell armour (and other meds) to the UK without a prescription on the condition that its taken under proper medical guidance (they dont require proof of this). You can only ask via PM

Cant help you with the conversion though

[PinkNinja]

It is a very individual thing. Most NDT brands have 38mcg T4 and 9mcg T3 per grain (60 or 65mg depending on brand). As you are already taking T3 you would probably find you can start on a higher dose than most people starting on NDT. If you were to start too low, you may find that you feel worse for a while. It looks like your current dose is roughly equivalent to 3 grains.

Ultimately it will be trial and error to find your ideal dose. There are legitimate on-line pharmacies in America that you can purchase NDT from for personal use but obviously I cannot comment on individual pharmacies.

Can I ask why you are deciding to self-medicate with NDT rather than taking your T4/T3 combo? Are you finding it doesn't work for you? If you are getting this on prescription, have you tried asking your doctor if they will trial you on Armour? There are doctors in the UK (including GPs) who will do this. If yours is happy to prescribe T4/T3 combination you might find he is open to trying Armour.

Carolyn x

[Hidden]

Hello thanks for replying

I was diagnosed hypo 3 years ago, it took me 2 years to get t3 on the NHS (I was buying it myself prior to that as it's the only thing that gets me out of bed)

I was at a point where my endo agreed I should try NDT and I was so excited, then my GP refused last week and the endo has now sided with GP

Everytime I up my dose I feel better for a couple of weeks then crap again, usual symptoms extreme fatigue, can't concentrate, aching muscles etc

[PinkNinja in reply to Hidden]

Which were you increasing? The T4 or T3? I had problems with T4. Now that I am on T3 only I am feeling very much better. What I think was happening to me was, initially the increase of T4 made me feel a little better but then more T4 was converted to reverse T3 and I felt worse again. The only thing that seems to have helped was stopping T4 altogether and going to T3 only.

It may be that you need to take a little more T3 or slightly less T4. It is also best not to take them at the same time of day. For example, you may feel best if you take the T3 during the day (maybe first thing in the morning and again at lunch time) and the T4 at night. Taking them together might end up with more T4 being converted to reverse T3. There is also some evidence to suggest that T4 conversion is better if you take it at night but this doesn't seem to work for everyone.

It would also be worth checking serum iron, ferritin (stored iron), folate, vitamin B12 and vitamin D. All of these could be contributing to your symptoms. Iron/ferritin is very important for your body to use thyroxine effectively and folate and B12 are also important. Vitamin D is involved in so many metabolic processes that deficiency seems to have many symptoms similar to hypothyroidism.

Hopefully you find something that works for you.

Carolyn x

[Hidden]

Hello, yes I actually take my Levo in the middle of the night when I get up to go the toilet as I can't deal with no coffee in the morning! I take the t3 as soon as I wake up, any later and I get nightmares

I'm still so confused about the conversions... Susymac and you both said roughlt 3 grains but it differs to what I have read online this table for example

nhnatural.com/images/About_...

My brain just cannot work this out I'm getting frustrated I can't ask my doctor for help

Sorry! I feel like a right moaning Minnie x

[PinkNinja in reply to Hidden]

These conversion charts are notoriously inaccurate. For example, I was on 125mcg levothyroxine which actually caused my TSH to be below range and my T4 at the top of the range. I needed more than 4.5 grains. I have now switched to T3 only and apparently only need around 30mcg compared with the levo. I am currently taking 125mcg T3, which is approximately equal to 5 grains NDT.

Don't worry about moaning. It is no fun when you just want to feel well and you can't get any help from your doctor.

If I were in your situation I would start with around 2 or 2.5 grains, which is what the conversion chart would suggest if you worked it out from the doses you are currently taking, and gradually increase until you start to feel well. Remember that you don't feel well on this dose at the moment so you may find you actually need more NDT than the conversion chart suggests. I think this is one of the fundamental reasons people need more NDT that the charts say. If they were feeling well on a certain dose of T4, the chart may well work out correctly for them but then they wouldn't find any need to switch to NDT would they, lol.

I hope you find the right dose. If you have any trouble with it, let us know and we will see if we can help

Carolyn x

[helvella Administrator in reply to Hidden]

That table suggests 2.5 grains (approximately).

Most online conversions are cautious and tend to underestimate.

The question you ask affects the answer you get. You might well end up on 3 grains so that is a reasonable estimate of what you might need.

But the table in the link you posted is a cautious estimate of where you might start at changeover and works out at 2.5 grains (approximately).

That gives you headroom of half a grain as a safety margin. If needed it could be reasonable to raise by up to half a grain without too much concern if 2.5 grains seems insufficient.

NONE of these conversions is or can ever be accurate. So much depends on your body. They can only suggest a possibility.

Rod

[nobodysdriving]

Also remember that NDT has both T4 and T3 in it, you say with T3 unless you take it the minute you wake up it gives you 'nightmares', so what are you going to do with the NDT? Take it all as soon as you wake up? but then it has T4 as well so you can't have your tea/coffee for half hour?

did you think about this small implication?

you could of course just go ahead and take the NDT and the tea/coffee straight after but you might end up on a higher dose than normally as your body does not absorb the T4 effectively, my private doctor said that, he said not to worry about the food/drink and you will just take the dose you need (one perspective of it I guess)

[Hidden]

Thanks for all your comments, that was another question I had, whether the NDT had the same implications with regards to coffee, obviously it does.

I am happy to play around with the dose it's just that I need to decide what grain size to buy as I don't want to get 2 different bottles due to expense.

If I get the 3 I can split it and then go from there... I won't know until I try

EEEEK this is a scary.....why the **** won't they help us?

As a sidenote I went to dr skinner last year don't know if any of you have been? x

[Jackie]

Hi Cannot comment on the WEB drugs, however, I would personally not risk it but guess you are desperate. However, can I suggest if you DIY you make sure you always have a blood test before any alterations in treatment. ( on line) TSH, T4 and Free T3. Make sure the Free T3 is never over range. Symptoms of hypo and hyper can be the same. I was over treated by a private doc and very ill. If you be sure of the blood tests, that is the only way of knowing really how you are. Also take it slowly.

Best wishes,

Jackie

[Hidden]

hello, i just had a blood test last week and my t3 is 5.4...i have had my levo increased by 25mcg because t4 was at the lower end...so i should be ok

its so hard trying to do this without the support of a doctor but ill have to give it a go...if it all goes wrong ill just go back to the synthetics x

[cloud1]

I am in similar situation in that i am desperate to feel better(but have been refused treatment by gps)so am v much cobsidering self-med with ndt.like u ,i am concerned about drugwebsites being legitimate and also scared about having to 'go it alone' with these powerful meds.(anfd my gp wont test FT3 so am worried cos dont know if its above range.as jakie cautioned..can i test from private lab?anybody know..)

[Hidden in reply to cloud1]

i think you can yes....somebody mentioned it somewhere, im sure someone will answer your question!

to be honest, i went to see Dr Skinner last year and all he did was write me a prescription, he did nothing more than i can do myself....with regards to finding the right dose etc so i think with enough research and knowledge we will probably do better alone than with most GPs!

[fibropal]

Hi, ive been on levothyroxine 175mg and gone from 3.5-1.1TSH. I did startto go hyper...palpitations, shakes, headaches etc so gp said to reduce to 150mg. Ive been waiting since November to see an endo cuz im obviously in the "ok" range of everything, despite really extreme symptoms. So imnow self medicating with ndt. Only started 2 days ago but with taking 3x 60mg at 5am then again at 2pm im actually reducing the morphine and gabapentin ive been usingto fight the pain and ifeel more clear headed too. Imstill tired but i think i need magnesium too. Im having a major blood test on monday which will show what else i need. Ill then tell my gp of the ndt and write a letter of complaint to the endo and the local medical board stating their ineptitude concerning thyroid and fibro patients. (My gp is also writing to them )

So in short, if ur desperate like i am (been inbed for a year) and ithink u have enough knowledge, go for it, self medicate. Good luck xx