The Covid vaccine question: I thought I would share... - PMRGCAuk

PMRGCAuk

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The Covid vaccine question

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador

I thought I would share this link which popped up in my inbox today:

medicalnewstoday.com/articl...

Whatever you think about the various authorities and their information, I have read through this and it answers a lot of questions in exactly the same way I would have done but it saves me writing it!

Above all, I need to point out that there are a few reasons for the speed of getting to a vaccine which seems to concern a lot of people: unlike most vaccines or drugs, when it comes to Covid, everything is being shared. Large numbers of patients are ready and waiting and the Biontech/Pfizer vaccine has already been tested in 43,000 patients in 6 different countries, about half got the vaccine, half the placebo. It is existing technology so the safety aspect was already halfway there. And the technology for MAKING the vaccine is different from the usual process so large volumes can be produced quickly and they started making it even before knowing how successful it would be - so they are ahead of themselves.

Together we are stronger ...

99 Replies
oldestnewest

Thank you for the link. I watched Prof.van Tam giving update on developed vaccines, the four shown although targeting Covd by different methods all relied on stimulating the immune system.

I wondered, how we and many other groups with chemically suppressed immune systems, would react to fighting without fully working adrenals?

A question was asked regarding elderly people whose immune system no longer functioned efficiently. The answer was it would be in part of the testing programme. But no mention as a result of those on steroids and other such meds.

I expect I will need to wait and see, although I keep getting calls from family’ isn’t it great you will soon be safe‘ I don’t feel so optimistic, my glass is usually have empty so as not to be disappointed.🤞🤞🤞

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Marymon

The only bit that doesn't work for us is the production of cortisol - because enough is present to switch the thermostat off. The rest of the adrenal gland is still functional.

I'm not banking on much before Easter at the earliest and I would far rather my daughters and former son in law get the jab way before me. One is a Covid ICU nurse, one now works in the ED after shielding first time round and the SIL is a paramedic.

Marymon
Marymon in reply to PMRpro

Thanks, so Pred doesn’t leave us without any immune function at all.

They have said such as your daughters and ex son in law will be at front of the queue. So they should be after it is thoroughly tested. Normally takes years, just hope that this is not another of Gov.’s attempt to keep the lid on the unrest in the country over their inability to pro act rather than react too late.

Like you I am not expecting much change until Easter.

diana1998
diana1998 in reply to PMRpro

Definitely agree

JGBH
JGBH in reply to Marymon

I agree with you regarding the safety of such vaccines developed so rapidly. There’s not enough time to test them properly because it takes years of data collecting to find out what the side effects will be and how they will affect different people, especially those of us who have compromised immune systems because of serious illness and the use of immunosuppressants and steroids.

However, it’s good knowing such vaccines are being developed but time is required to really understand their safety and efficacy. Unfortunately this process cannot be rushed. I fear that big pharma companies are pushing for the vaccines to be used as early as possible, it’s all a question of making more money for them and in the process not enough time is taken to ensure the safety of these brand new vaccines. I really fear many people who will be vaccinated in the early stages will get serious side effects, it could be fatal. Yet without a safe vaccine many people will die. Quite a problem. By the way, I am not anti vaccines. I always get the flu jab every year.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to JGBH

It isn't the time that is important - it is the numbers of subjects for the first 3 stages. Normally they have to wait to recruit enough - wasn't a problem with Covid, they were queuing up to volunteer and they have shared the information from different countries. The numbers already and the duration of monitoring are exactly the same as any others.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to JGBH

This is why our countries have health departments to regulate the introduction of new treatments of all kinds. If they do their job properly they vet the whole process, the studies, the claims, the whole shebang. Some delays can be put at the feet of bureaucratic footdragging, or inability to do their work properly because of lack of funding (= personnel). One assumes with the covid emergency all stops will be pulled out in order for the appropriate regulators to do their job in a timely, but not rushed, fashion.

I think I'm living in cloud cuckoo land. One hopes for the best. ;)

JGBH
JGBH in reply to HeronNS

Thanks for your input. Of course I am pleased the vaccines are making fast progress but I still have my reservations.

Although not a vaccine, nevertheless I was having Prolia (Denosumab) injections for osteoporosis from 2013 to 2017 when I had to stop because of intense dental treatment. This drug was released for “safe” Osteoporosis treatment by the various agencies you mentioned YET in 2018 it was found this drug actually caused debilitating fractures when stopped - I didn’t know nor was told by my GP or osteoporosis consultant when I contacted them prior to stopping it BECAUSE they didn’t know about the rebound fractures till 2018! I have suffered lumbar and pelvic fractures and my mobility has been drastically impaired. Therefore this points clearly to the fact that more time is required to prove the safety of drugs/vaccines. This is the reason I don’t feel it’s safe yet .

My condition is irreversible, I can barely walk and can’t do my gardening anymore nor clean my house. Yet I used to be very active. I am 74 but feel at least 10 years older as my life is so restricted and I live alone. So am on the cautious side regarding the vaccine.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to JGBH

But that is my point really - it was only once they had a lot of patients on it for a long time that it was seen. If drugs had to go through 10 years of trials before approval the costs would be so high nothing would ever be developed at all. Patients are still being followed and adverse events reported. Even the way you seem to expect it to be, the same proportion of cases would be found but it would take 3 or 4 times as long to get the same info.

JGBH
JGBH in reply to PMRpro

Yes, I get that... we don’t know HOW serious and debilitating the side effects especially for vulnerable people will be for quite a while yet, so I don’t wish to be a guinea pig once more, am paying quite a price already for the lack of knowledge of side effects from Denosumab. So I’ll wait and see what happens to those who will accept the vaccine. Of course COVID could be the end of me... hopefully not as I am being cautious about what needs to be done to keep safe, shielding again and it’s no fun when living alone.

Hopefully the more people get the vaccine the sooner it will become “safer” for the most vulnerable but the virus will be with us for a long time.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to JGBH

I am aware of the denosumab debacle and I am really sorry and shocked that you have been a victim of this drug. I do believe that in the case of osteoporosis elderly (mostly) women are unwitting guinea pigs and their doctors are poorly informed.

In the case of the vaccine, I too was very concerned at the beginning, and it wasn't helped by a certain person who kept declaring there would be a vaccine any day now which would save his country (if no one else's). However, there is no such vaccine yet. There are several in Stage 3 trials, none have been approved yet. They are mostly building on information already gathered when earlier potential pandemics were looming so there's a lot of background information already available.

And can you imagine what would happen if a dangerous not completely tested vaccine were released on the public anywhere in the world and people started to die from it? The company or government which allowed this to happen would be crucified. It's not like this is only going to affect mostly invisible old women like a new money-spinning OP drug. Safety in numbers and public purview? :)

**Admin edited to keep in line with rules.**

JGBH
JGBH in reply to HeronNS

Regarding Denosumab, doctors and consultants were ill informed (some still are because they still keep on pushing that drug onto unaware patients even after the side effects were discovered) precisely because it took 7/8 years to find out the side effects, therefore it’s the same with a brand new vaccine.

Pfizer have been heavily fined for serious problems caused by some of their drugs . I can’t remember the details now but it’s correct, not misinformation.

Unfortunately we have a mini orange person here who keeps saying we’ll probably will have the vaccine by the end of the year.... so not reassuring.

I don’t want to be used as a guinea pig again, once is quite enough.... Still hopeful the vaccines will bring some genuine hope for everyone.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to JGBH

I hope you find my opinion at least somewhat reassuring. I don't think I'm deluded when I say that there is a world of difference between a vaccination and a biologic drug which is designed to alter the way certain systems in the body function. One is designed to stimulate the production of antibodies to a specific illness. The other is more systemic. I have never taken a bone medication although they were recommended to me (sans DXA scan I should add) precisely because they have unintended consequences. The way the vaccines are developed is to weed out the unintended consequences which should be obvious far more quickly than they are with medications for chronic conditions, in other words, before approval. In fact the worst effects of approved vaccines seems to be from the adjuvants which stimulate the immune system to have a more vigorous response, and for the most part these are the aches and pains or fluey feeling which last for a day or two. None of the vaccines being worked on for Covid are using live virus which is our primary worry when immune-compromised.

I don't think it can have taken seven years for the bad effects of denosumab to show up. It took seven years for them to be acknowledged and publicized which in itself is appalling. Personally I think this drug should have been withdrawn from the market. I'm also horrified that a similar drug, also brought to us by Amgen, has been approved although it comes with a black box warning that it can cause death.

In any case, people like us will not be the first to get it. We may be high on the list but I'm sure it will take a while for enough doses to be available to vaccinate ambulant, independent elderly.

And if you remain nervous, trust your instincts. We only need about 70% coverage. Some of us will be in the 30% unvaccinated for a variety of reasons and that will be okay. 💗

JGBH
JGBH in reply to HeronNS

No, I don’t think your delusional.... What’s important is to understand how some immunosuppressants (biologic, in my case a Jak inhibitor) work. They don’t all work in the same way, hence lies the problem. In my case, the Jak inhibitor destroys T cells.... so that my immune system is quite weak so as to stop my body attacking itself. I understand the vaccines will actually stimulate the T cells in order to replicate the virus and help the body in fitting the disease, developing immunity. So I am not convinced this would be ok for me and people who have similar problems and treatment.

Please have a look at the following link provided by NRSAS 2 days ago: healthunlocked.com/nras/pos

It indicates that some people taking certain immunosuppressants should not have the vaccine.

I will contact my RA consultant and ask him, but somehow I don’t think he will know.... So I will trust my instincts until someone is able to give me accurate scientific information about this.

Indeed, Denosumab SHOULD be removed from circulation for the treatment of osteoporosis (I understand it helps with certain types of cancer). However, big pharmas are making a fortune out of this so nothing has been done about it. What is more shameful is that doctors, knowing the problems, still push this drug onto patients.

Incidentally, what is the name of the drug brought by Amgen to treat osteoporosis?

Keep well and keep safe.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to JGBH

Yes, there may well be contraindications for people on meds like yours, and that makes it even more important that those of us who have no contraindications get the vaccine. That's what "herd immunity" is all about! You would be protected by the herd!

Evenity - romosozumab-aqqg

accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatf...

JGBH
JGBH in reply to HeronNS

Yes it’s why I am so concerned and worried. I am not anti vaccine at all and hope it will be safe for most people and help people I’m my “health category” once most people are vaccinated. I wish I could have the vaccine...

Thanks for the link.

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to JGBH

Your Link doesn’t work - try this

healthunlocked.com/nras/pos

JGBH
JGBH in reply to DorsetLady

Sorry it’s not working... perhaps use the hips/ in front. I found this yesterday from the NRAS, the Osteoporosis society. Rather useful information. Hope you will be able to find it...

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to JGBH

I did - The page doesn’t exist any more!

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to JGBH

NRAS isn't the osteoporosis society - that is ROS

This is a link to the NRAS infor page on the Pfizer vaccine:

nras.org.uk/news/nras-state...

and this is a link to ROS

theros.org.uk/

No-one knows anything yet about the suitability of the new vaccine for any specific groups as that information has not yet been released to anyone by the authorities or the company.

JGBH
JGBH in reply to PMRpro

Yes of course! Having spoken about osteoporosis I made the silly mistake so thanks for making the correction.

The NRAS is involved with rheumatic diseases and have a good understanding about the biologics used in helping control RA. Until we get accurate information about the vaccines and their possible reactions to a biologic treatment or not I will, like many people receiving such a treatment, keep my reservation.

Thanks for posting the correct links for both NRAS and ROS.

sondya
sondya in reply to JGBH

Agree on Pfizer's track record, New Zealand has bought into the vaccine but will not be dishing it out until absolutely certain.

I still scan track and trace posters although covid, distancing and mask-wearing seems a lifetime ago. Active cases are border controlled, no community cases.

Wish you good health.

JGBH
JGBH in reply to sondya

New Zealand’s approach is more cautious than here, in the UK. I admire the way your PM has handled the whole situation.

Stay safe.

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to JGBH

She has handled it well, but there are only 5million people compared to 60million odd in UK.... and most cases have been citizens returning home from abroad , apart from crew off Russian boat.

Although just spoken to daughter tonight, and they have a new “home grown” case - which was significant enough to have a press conference about!

JGBH
JGBH in reply to DorsetLady

Naturally a smaller population is or should be easier to control in times of pandemic but it’s also a reflection on how people behave once given instructions.... and proper timing given by the government.

So your daughter lives in N Z? At least no dithering, press conference straight away so people can become more aware and more responsible.

sondya
sondya in reply to DorsetLady

Yes - even one is too many.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to sondya

Canada has bought millions of doses too, (as it has of several other potential vaccine candidates) but we know it will not even be available until they are certain it will work and be safe. So there is no question of dishing it out before then.

Kingsley09
Kingsley09 in reply to JGBH

You are right about Pfizer being fined one of the drugs was pregabalin Which I take which helps with my pain but gives me vision and balance problems I don’t know how true this is but I read that one of there employees Is in prison because he didn’t do the correct test so. Pregabalin, but a point I would lie to make is if we all hold back from taking this drug most of us who write on hear will be dead anyway

JGBH
JGBH in reply to Kingsley09

Sorry you had problems with Pregabalin... It’s so difficult when one experiences such a high level of pain. Strong drugs have stronger side effects and its not always easy to find a balance.

I do know Pfizer have been fined heavily (they’ve got plenty of money) many times... so very difficult for people to trust them or any drug company. However we do need help when faced by debilitating health problems.

I really hope the vaccines will prove safe for most people though. A ray of hope.

Blossom20
Blossom20 in reply to JGBH

So sorry to hear what happened to you. That's why I'm scared of any drug . They all have side effects, some unknown until they happen. Its sensible to be wary. I agree.

JGBH
JGBH in reply to Blossom20

Thank you for empathy (although this was not the point, I was merely describing problems with side effects many years after a drug was released for use for patients). It seems it’s never safe, all drugs have side effects which affect people differently. It’s a catch 22 situation.... we need drugs to help us with our health issues. Let’s hope the vaccines will prove “safe enough” for everyone, in time.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Blossom20

But you still get in a car to go somewhere?

Jan_Noack
Jan_Noack in reply to JGBH

wierd as I knew about the rebound in 2016 and discussed this with the endocrinologist who was "marketing" them in Sydney.. the main expert in early 2017 and rejected prolia , on the excuse I needed dental work but would have them later... but knew I would not due to the rebound (which he readily admitted was a problem but was choosing to ignore. I would have agreed without the need for dental work and if over 85 though on his arguments... Basically my bones were already too destroyed and too little left for a bisphosphonate to do anything other than make them brittle.

I don't know why they are saying it was not known til 2018?(or perhaps my brain has gone bonkers). I now have a scrip for a zoledronic acid injection(yes a bisphosphonate which give symptoms like PMR and nausea for a couple of weeks or longer)..which I only want a half dose of.. so my bones are also probably shot (they were pretty bad before)and one day I will have to face the music.. but so far I ignore it...(typical me). Sorry to hear what has happened to you.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Jan_Noack

It was probably suspected but they didn't have the study evidence to show the cause and effect. Gathering evidence takes time.

JGBH
JGBH in reply to Jan_Noack

Sorry you’re experiencing so many problems with osteoporosis. It’s so difficult living with that....

Yes, I believe they (pharmaceutical companies and medical professionals) knew about the rebound problems well before 2018 but chose to ignore that. It’s criminal really, destroying people’s lives.

I too will have to have infusions of Alendronic Acid , not really looking forward to that but my risk of a hip fracture are 47% and of femoral fracture too. Scary. The problem is there is not a drug yet that really helps with osteoporosis. The present drugs do not stimulate the growth of strong new bones but only repair weakly the old damaged bones so it’s of little use as many people who receive such treatments often still get fractures. A catch 22 situation giving us little option.

Nevertheless, good luck with your treatment.

Blossom20
Blossom20 in reply to Marymon

I agree, it's very worrying. Our immune systems are already in a mess and confused about what's us and what's not us and needs attacking (auto immune disease), so how will it react to toxic substances injected into us? Will it over react? Will it not react at all due to the pred? We don't know.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to Blossom20

Do you get an annual flu shot? Have you had a pneumonia vaccination? I would expect a coronavirus vaccine to behave similarly with regard to our own reactions. And maybe I'll get aches and pains from the adjuvant which will be added to it to make my immune system respond more effectively. And then when enough people have had the vaccine I'll be able to travel to visit my daughter and her family. I have not seen my only grandchild since she was four months old last December. How much I have missed! I'll be getting the vaccination because without it my life is really not worth living.

Blackcat1M
Blackcat1M in reply to HeronNS

Same here HeronNS, i have not seen my family an ony grandchild since December, my DIL works in the ICUdept,and i would like to see her and my son again some time.

Take care

Staplehurst
Staplehurst in reply to Marymon

I must say I feel the same as you Mary. In my humble opinion this vaccine has been produced too quickly. None of us know the possible repercussion.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Staplehurst

Heron82 has explained that very clearly further down the thread:

"It isn't necessarily that the development timelines have been rushed, instead they have been compressed. The companies have been working hand in glove with the independent regulators in the US, UK and EU to design the studies such that the required robust safety and efficacy data have been generated to ensure safe and effective use. Normally companies wait for the data from each study before making significant investment in manufacturing and development and then getting the agreement to move forward to the next stage. In this case, for the sake of mankind, a lot of the development has been done at risk and it has paid off, as we now have a vaccine (and hopefully will have more) that should save an enormous number of lives help us get out of this pandemic and economic mess that it has created."

It isn't the time line being short that matters - it is the fact that what are normally consecutive steps have been carried out in parallel and major risks taken by starting production at the companies' own risks and permission being given for others to share the info. Perhaps not philanthropy - but something that may improve drug development in the future.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to Staplehurst

It hasn't been approved yet - they are still in the testing phase.

diduck
diduck in reply to Marymon

I feel the same sure if I am prepared to take the chance in having the injection

GenJe
GenJe in reply to Marymon

Thankyou for writing this because I feel exeactly the same

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer

Thanks,

Let’s not get too carried away either, it will come, but must not be hurried, it must be properly tested/monitored etc.

Plus if it’s given in 2 dose with either 21 or 28 days between the 1st and 2nd depending on make, according to Prof Van-Tam it won’t be effective until 2 (or maybe 3) weeks after the 2nd jab....so that could be 5-8 weeks before you’re sure you’re okay.

How many people are going to wait that long before social interaction!

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to DorsetLady

Not enough!

JGBH
JGBH in reply to DorsetLady

Good point! They’ll think they’re safe and carry on regardless. Am still weary....

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to DorsetLady

Constant reminders to follow the protocol - handwashing, mask-wearing, distancing. Vaccines will not protect us until enough of the population has received it, and that includes all countries in the world. We are not safe until everyone is safe.

There is a real problem here. People will stop taking precautions as soon as the vaccine is rolled out.

Also, I am not sure that older people, whose immune response is weakened due to age, should be the first to get it. It is very unlikely to be optimally effective. Hopefully someone will develop a vaccine specifically targeting the older community but if you have already had one vaccine will you want another?

It would be better to prioritise teachers, bus drivers, shop and restaurant workers (if we are sure that the vaccination prevents transmission).

Reduce the viral load in the general population that have a lot of face-to-face contact and the whole community will benefit.

I don't want vaccine doses wasted on me.

I am happy enough to stay in quarantine for a while (even a long while) longer.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to agingfeminist

"(if we are sure that the vaccination prevents transmission)."

But we aren't - that will take a lot more people taking it to establish.

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to agingfeminist

I understand why they want older people immunised early as they are ones most likely to need intensive care/ventilators - but agree along with frontline NHS workers, those who need to be out and about to work should be higher up the list.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to agingfeminist

Those of us living independently are not as high up the list as those in care homes, irrespective of age - that is in an attempt to reduce the hospitalisation, need for ICU care and death rates in the elderly which would greatly reduce the load on the NHS at the same time. Think someone said in the last few days - 75% of deaths were in the elderly.

Don't worry. The Olympics are slated for next year. The athletes and their support teams and all the Olympic organizers and workers will have priority for the vaccine. I hope it doesn't extend to spectators over vulnerable groups, but who knows?

Thank you so much for this interesting link. However, it states that stage 4 will be when the vaccine will be released for immunisation to the public while scientists will keep on monitoring for side effects. This clearly indicates to me it’s not exactly that safe, more so for people whose immune system is already depressed through illness and treatment via strong immunosuppressants and steroids. If they still monitor for side effects then logically they’re not yet sure how it will affect people. It makes sense because it does indeed take years of data once a vaccine is used on a population to become aware of any side effects and its efficacy.

Personally I am most concerned because I have a very compromised immune system and echo Marymon’s feelings.

Whilst it’s great to have a few possible vaccines available shortly I still think it’s too early to be able to trust their safety and efficacy. More time is required but I am pleased the scientists are working hard in order to help us all to resume living a more normal life eventually,

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to JGBH

Phase 4 is almost never mentioned - it is the post-launch monitoring and a perfectly normal process. Phase 3 is the part providing the information for approval and 43,000 patients is a pretty large cohort for that stage. It is not until any drug or vaccine is in widespread use for millions that there are enough cases to get accurate figures and is the reason the yellow card reporting system in the UK and the FDA reporting in the US is so important. The safety checks are done first, then the efficacy. They are the really important stages and they stop if there are any queries until it is established it had nothing to do with the trial substance but then they keep an eye out for the other things to find the real rates.

JGBH
JGBH in reply to PMRpro

Yes, I understand but find it quite worrying especially for those of us who have a compromised immune system, not sure it wouldn’t make matters worse. Still we have to hope it will be ok.

HeronNS
HeronNS in reply to JGBH

The recently mentioned vaccine by Novavax now entering Phase 3 and recruiting volunteers in the UK expressly says on its website: "The trial is designed to enroll at least 25 percent of participants over the age of 65 as well as to prioritize groups that are most affected by COVID-19, including racial and ethnic minorities. Additionally, up to 400 participants will also receive a licensed seasonal influenza vaccine as part of a co-administration sub-study."

Thanks PMRpro, I have, always through my lifetime, been more of a 'glass half full' kind of guy rather than a 'glass half empty'. Having that attitude has served me very well to date at the age of 77. So I take a lot of positives out of your post and my day has taken a lift.

best wishes and thanks for the post, Gunflash.

Thanks for posting this. It’s a much needed ray of light

>this link which popped up in my inbox today:

Is that a safe link to follow?

I reflexively transfer all such emails to my SPAM folder (as they're notorious for sometimes if not often containing subtle and not so subtle phishing attempts and can even directly load malware onto your computer, use of the best antivirus software notwithstanding).

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to wbiC

If you followed the author of this post - which you obviously don’t as according to your profile you don’t have PMR nor GCA- you would know she would not be linking to an unsafe site.

wbiC
wbiC in reply to DorsetLady

Thank you for your interesting opinion.

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to wbiC

Fact actually, not opinion.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to wbiC

It is a medical journal which I have followed for years - I don't link to anything "dodgy" and as I said, it saved me writing exactly the same information myself.

Thank you for sharing this.

Thank you PMRpro.

Thank you for posting and your clear explanation as usual

As I understand it....as a total novice...the latest Covid vaccine is like a live one & as such, I thought not suitable for anyone with a suppressed immune system. I was refused a shingles jab for this reason. Can you clarify please?

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Lyndaki

It is not live - it doesn't contain the virus itself in any form. Identifying features of the virus have been created synthetically in the lab and they trick the body into producing security: you could think of it a bit like someone wearing a coat with particularly distinctive metal buttons without which the coat falls apart. The security forces are taught to recognise the buttons using a model made in another material - so when they see them on the coat they recognise them and chop them off so the coat falls apart.

And as a PS - you may have been better not to have the Zostavax shingles vaccine, it is live. But the newer Shingrix vaccine is not.

Lyndaki
Lyndaki in reply to PMRpro

Whilst I can no way dispute your description & knowledge, the article I read describing the vaccine & how it works said no suitable for those with compromised immune systems.

Thanks for update on shingles jab as I’ve seen firsthand how very painful it can be if you get it!

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Lyndaki

Which vaccine? They don't yet KNOW about the Covid one so no-one can say one way or the other.

The official line for Shingrix:

"While Shingrix is not contraindicated in immunocompromised persons, it is not recommended by ACIP at this time. ACIP will begin reviewing evidence for Shingrix in immunocompromised people as soon as it becomes available and will modify vaccine policy as necessary."

When the Zostavax vaccine was approved it was said it was not suitable for the immunocompromised - primarily because it is live. However, being on a moderate dose of pred was defined as acceptable as it was not felt to suppress the immune sytem enough to be a problem.

I think it is important for people to know that the proposed vaccine is a mRNA vaccine so could have the potential to change our genetic code so I am a bit wary about embracing it wholeheartedly at the moment.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Ranchero

It would be important to know if it were true - it isn't. This is a fake claim circulating on the internet.

apnews.com/article/afs:Cont...

It isn't necessarily that the development timelines have been rushed, instead they have been compressed. The companies have been working hand in glove with the independent regulators in the US, UK and EU to design the studies such that the required robust safety and efficacy data have been generated to ensure safe and effective use. Normally companies wait for the data from each study before making significant investment in manufacturing and development and then getting the agreement to move forward to the next stage. In this case, for the sake of mankind, a lot of the development has been done at risk and it has paid off, as we now have a vaccine (and hopefully will have more) that should save an enormous number of lives help us get out of this pandemic and economic mess that it has created.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Heron82

Thank you for stating that so clearly!!!

Heron82
Heron82 in reply to PMRpro

No problem. The other point to note is that the trial is still blinded. The results of the interim analysis that have been reported was carried out by an independent data monitoring committee that look at the number of cases and safety data in the covid vaccine group compared to the control vaccine group. The DMC reported this case split to the company and advised that the study should continue. They will not have seen data on age etc of the subjects in the study. This will be done once the first part of the study concludes when there are 164 confirmed Covid cases.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Heron82

Yes - I know that - unfortunately not enough people do understand how clinical trials work. Probably not worth adding that to my post above though, too late ... Shame

I wonder what account has been taken of how people have behaved after their vaccination. If you stayed at home as I do unless I HAVE to go out you may not have met Covid in all its glory to get infected!

Thanks so much for informative article.

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer

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Visual confirmation of comments made in Marymon’spost

Marymon
Marymon in reply to DorsetLady

Very interesting charts. Waiting for Regulatory Review then. Will participants in the study carry on their normal lives? who knows if they would be mixing with others who carry the virus. Results would be influenced by geographical location as to their exposure, as well as age, current health etc. It would need insolation and exposure to Covd-19 for the weeks between vaccination with all the variables to get a result, With the huge number in the study could this be achieved?

All said I would seriously consider it, as I find I am losing the need to socialise, not good.

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to Marymon

Answers to your questions - Who knows?

No not good to lose the need to socialise.

Take care

Marymon
Marymon in reply to DorsetLady

Just caught me as I go out to plant the tubs, don’t suppose I will see anyone, but no matter the sun is shining. 🌤🥺

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to Marymon

Well, you can do a Prince Charles - and talk to the plants!

I managed to get a walk along the sea wall this morning in the sun, and a take-away coffee, and then treated the car to a car wash - 1st time in 4 months (car wash that is!)

Marymon
Marymon in reply to DorsetLady

🤢🤢🤢

Thanks so much for the informative link and to all contributing to the discussion.

As with all new vaccines there are a variety of responses world wide, some based on clinical evidence and some on a more emotive response. Each of us will respond to the offer of a vaccine (when available) as we choose personally.

But I will always be glad that I have lived through a time when I have seen the transformative power of vaccines and through my parents’ positive attitude towards a vaccination programme I escaped the horror of polio which several of my young friends did not.

So I remain one of those people who will research the options as best I can but will also be prepared to try a newly developed vaccine if it appears to be appropriate and as safe as can be.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to bluebeam

My daughter (a nurse) said to me right at the start of the pandemic that this was a glimpse of what would be if anti-vaxxers were to get the upper hand - a return to the middle ages. The same will apply if antibiotic resistance continues to rise. I don't object to any reservations that have a scientific basis - but spreading misinformation because of not understanding the basic science is not acceptable.

I think what some people are not aware of is when I worked in a surgery 20 yrs ago I had the job of getting people in for their flu jab and most had no side effect from it but others did so I think we may see that again with the Covid vaccines but it doesn’t mean there is something wrong with the vaccine but just some people react differently

Are these anti-vaxx ppl?

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to HeronNS

See my reply.

No - this is an independent journalist progamme. It goes out 3 times a week and sometimes more. All their data sources are published on their website - you can follow the links - direct to sources such as the government's own website, the CDC's and WHO's websites etc. They are reporting news that is not making it on the TV because of censorship. I have checked much of their info and followed the paths to the data - I have found nothing to say they lie. They do make assumptions sometimes, ie they try to make sense of what is really going on, but nothing more than that. The beginning of the video does seem scary but the point they are making is that the UK has put out an AI contract - for anyone to apply for, to develop an AI programme that will follow and record adverse reactions to the C Vaccine when it is finally released - the reason being that they expect a high amount of adverse reactions - this contract is real.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador

The source of this video is

"The website for an anti-establishment political pamphlet published in Devon, England. The site has posted false and misleading health information, including about COVID-19."

I have listened to it, their immediate idea is that the adverse reaction mentioned in their first pick is death. ALL adverse reactions for a clinical trial must be recorded - and that includes a sore arm or a flu-ey feeling, both of which are common with any vaccine. This is misleading conspiracy theory.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador

It does seem a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to leave for one or two such comments - the correct action is to report it and have it adjudicated.

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to PMRpro

Too late....gone off in a strop!

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to DorsetLady

For the benefit of others I thought ...

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to PMRpro

Yes....

.....unfortunately those that flounce off in a huff are not necessarily thinking logically.....as we’ve seen before!

I am not an 'anti vaxxer' but I have had a serious reaction following Hepatitis B vaccine when I was younger. My granddaughter was hospitalised on two occasions following MMR vaccinations. Vaccines should be given with consideration for people's medical history and previous reactions; they are not always. I was diagnosed with PMR following the flu vaccine. This makes me suspicious of all vaccines. I do not like this polarisation into 'anti vaxxer nut job' or everyone should be persuaded to have it viewpoint. I shall be proceeding with great caution over the Covid vaccination.

DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to Bonnie-ma

That’s your personal choice of course, and looking at what’s gone on before I can fully understand your reticence to go for a vaccine.

In the majority of cases vaccines are safe, but for an unfortunate few (probably for reasons unknown) they can cause issues.

PMRpro
PMRproAmbassador in reply to Bonnie-ma

The whole point of using a vaccine for everyone who can have it safely is that people who can't, for whatever reason, are protected by herd immunity. The most common reason for reactions to traditional vaccines is that they are produced in eggs - and there these new technology ones have an advantage, not only that it removes the egg sensitivity problem but also it speeds up their production.

ALL vaccines come with details of patients for whom they are not suitable - and in adults most people should know they are allergic to eggs (for example). If your granddaughter reacted to one MMR shot, someone was at fault that it was risked a second time. That is why so much care is taken in documenting ADRs (adverse drug reactions) - from the slightly sore arm to really severe reactions. During the trials any trial is halted immediately if very severe reactions occur until it is established that it was due to the drug - some things happen due to other causes by coincidence, it isn't suspended for the duration.

Thank you for your post and the link. I am optimistic that the vaccine will work although we don’t really know how long any immunity will last. It is scary having a brand new vaccine particularly having health conditions. However, I will have the vaccine when it has been deemed safe and it has been fully licensed. I expect the Covid vaccine will need to be given annually in the same way as the flu vaccine.

Thank you PMRpro for always giving us correct information! This has been really helpful!

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