Absorption issues exist. The term is often used as a general explanation without a specific diagnosis being made. This led me to believe that I had to consider absorption issues when taking oral supplements. I over reacted to the term absorption issues.
That being said I did experience digestive issues that have resolved with injecting every 4 hours. I now inject every 5 hours including setting an alarm to inject every 5 hours. I now no longer am concerned with my oral supplementation excluding B12.
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That’s a useful article. Well set out and clearly presented. If only it were included in uk medical training! In year one, along with other vitamin/mineral deficiencies/ absorption issues that underpin so much else.
Yes not only costly and lengthy but maybe inconclusive as well due to everything being codependent and interacting with so much else. That’s why medical training needs to look at the body a a whole.
I read that in training nurse practitioners to take over some areas from gps they are considering dropping anatomy from the curriculum!
Upper limit of vitamin B6 is 100 mg per day. I personally do not have to exceed the upper limit to prevent the pain of peripheral neuropathy. I do not miss that excruciating debilitating pain at all!
I would go with good on me for having and doing what it takes not to experience the pain of peripheral neuropathy even if all it takes is a water soluble vitamin at levels that conform to the current recommendations for treating B6 deficiency.
Might not work for everyone, can't know unless you try.
Since the age of 16 I were prescribed B6 daily. I now take daily with my prescribed vit D3. Your correct it most certaintly does not work for everyone due to both the severity of neuropathy and it's cause. It made me smile this morning to see your message you simply couldn't resist having the last word. 🤣 <
I had been taking B Complex for years and had terrible Peripheral neuropathy and when a test done my B6 was through the roof and it was the reason so too much is also not good either
I had been taking the B Complex for about 5 years and as I have pernicious anemia Dr thought the neuropathy was from that, so when I saw a specialist he did more tests and then my Dr called me as she received the test results too and told me to stop taking the B Complex as my B6 was through the roof and that was the reason for the neuropathy. I stopped taking it and in about 2 months it was back to normal so I am very wary now.
Two years ago I was suffering from peripheral neuropathy. I injected B6 .80 ml. I do not know the concentration. I am guessing 1 mg/ml. The relief from the pain was immediate and 4 hours later it was greatly reduced. 6 days later I went snowtubing. When before there was no way I could have done that.
Every time I try and stop B6 which I have done 5 times in the last two years the pain comes back in days. More questions than answers.
Toxicol In Vitro . 2017 Oct;44:206-212.
doi: 10.1016/j.tiv.2017.07.009. Epub 2017 Jul 14.
The vitamin B6 paradox: Supplementation with high concentrations of pyridoxine leads to decreased vitamin B6 function
Misha F Vrolijk 1 , Antoon Opperhuizen 2 , Eugène H J M Jansen 3 , Geja J Hageman 4 , Aalt Bast 4 , Guido R M M Haenen 4
• PMID: 28716455
• DOI: 10.1016/j.tiv.2017.07.009
Abstract
Vitamin B6 is a water-soluble vitamin that functions as a coenzyme in many reactions involved in amino acid, carbohydrates and lipid metabolism. Since 2014, >50 cases of sensory neuronal pain due to vitamin B6 supplementation were reported. Up to now, the mechanism of this toxicity is enigmatic and the contribution of the various B6 vitamers to this toxicity is largely unknown. In the present study, the neurotoxicity of the different forms of vitamin B6 is tested on SHSY5Y and CaCo-2 cells. Cells were exposed to pyridoxine, pyridoxamine, pyridoxal, pyridoxal-5-phosphate or pyridoxamine-5-phosphate for 24h, after which cell viability was measured using the MTT assay. The expression of Bax and caspase-8 was tested after the 24h exposure. The effect of the vitamers on two pyridoxal-5-phosphate dependent enzymes was also tested. Pyridoxine induced cell death in a concentration-dependent way in SHSY5Y cells. The other vitamers did not affect cell viability. Pyridoxine significantly increased the expression of Bax and caspase-8. Moreover, both pyridoxal-5-phosphate dependent enzymes were inhibited by pyridoxine. In conclusion, the present study indicates that the neuropathy observed after taking a relatively high dose of vitamin B6 supplements is due to pyridoxine. The inactive form pyridoxine competitively inhibits the active pyridoxal-5'-phosphate. Consequently, symptoms of vitamin B6 supplementation are similar to those of vitamin B6 deficiency.
I was at first shocked at how B12 was treated so differently depending on what country you were in. Now I am used to different applied science.
All I know for sure is an upper limit does exist in science and it cannot be two numbers. One of them is incorrect and there is a reason. 12 mg to 100 mg too much of a range for me to not know something is wrong. Maybe both.
I am still looking for an upper limit specifically for P5P AKA Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate rather than B6 in any form. I am not going to hold my breath or suffer from peripheral neuropathy.
"All I know for sure is an upper limit does exist in science and it cannot be two numbers. "
The tolerable upper limit is defined by Institutes of Medicine (US) as
"The highest average daily nutrient intake level that is likely to pose no risk of adverse health effects to almost all individuals in the general population. As intakes increase above the UL, the potential risk of adverse effects may increase"
The presence of the words "is likely to" and "potential risk" shows that the derived number is not an objective fact - rather it is something that is arrived at by consensus by examining the scientific literature but then adjusting for uncertainties and calculations of risk.
First, based on the examination of studies, a "No Observed Adverse Effect Level" or "Lowest Observed Adverse Effect Level" is developed. From that number, based on levels of uncertainty, an upper limit is produced which will often be lower than the above derived value depending on the agreed uncertainties.
This is explained in detail in "Steps In The Development Of The UL" here:
Therefore it is entirely possible (and likely) in fact, that different dietary administrative organisations in different countries may come to different conclusions on what the upper limit should be.
Relevant complexities would involve the (likely) differing effects based on the form of B6, particularly if taken regularly at multiples of the RDA. Studies showing adverse effects may not always specify the form taken and this may partly explain the widely varying upper limits for B6 in different countries - some may choose to take a more precautionary line across all forms of B6, out of an abundance of caution.
So the upper limit of B6 (or any other nutrient) can indeed be two numbers because is not derived by astract formal mathematics. It is not 2+2=4. There is a lot of human judgement and risk calculation involved. Some countries will choose to be more cautious, some may not agree that such caution is justified, but it is not an objective fact that one number is right and another number is wrong - they are calculations based on risk and with levels of caution and uncertainty which will often differ.
I don't see a specific UL for P5P but it will be interesting to see if one does emerge in the future. In the absence of a specific UL for P5P form of B6, it is a matter of personal risk calculation as to whether to exceed the UL.
It may make sense for you but others might prefer to take the precautionary principle and stay under the upper limit until such time as a specific P5P B6 UL emerges. An amount exceeding the UL might alleviate neuropathy for you but when exceeding the UL there is also a risk of causing neuropathy or other issues relating to excess intake.
At the end of the day, everyone makes their own risk decision and can take whatever they want but I see a tendency towards a general "more is better" ethos on the forum for a great many nutrients (shades of orthomolecular medicine), perhaps based on frequency of B12 injections which I'm not convinced is really justified and may carry some risks.
Hey Technoid,I read both papers on UL. The NIH does quote the European studstudyy. Right below they are determination that the upper limit is 100.
The paper for the UL in Europe reads like a very expensive high school science project. They are out of their area of expertise. Confident but not competent.
I am aware of risk assessment. My methodology derived in part from my expertise as an environmental scientist is much different than yours.
I work with what is most likely correct. Not who is most likely correct or go with the most restrictive possible. I do that in my work also.
I see a tendency on the forum not to overdo rather to follow those that fail in the treatment of B12 protocols. That it works for some a little bit more might work for others is not rational.
I am well well versed in the language of science and law. And the language of coving your ass. Could be. may be indicated ,likely, somewhat etc.
Like you I keep experimenting to improve my digestive health because I believe that malabsorption and a lot of autoimmune disorders are environmental/lifestyle/diet related. Something has to explain the explosion in autoimmune conditions that we are seeing.
Autoimmune conditions have been around for decades. I were diagnosed with a rare autoimmune condition in 1976 at St Marys Hospital in London. Back then they new very little about such diseases and it were both very timely and costly to investigate the cause.
Food of today is mostly processed and pre-packaged where it is often fermenting in the bags. Gone are the days where you could get fresh fruit and veg where you could pick it off the shelves.
We breath in pollutants with every breath just look at the filth that comes down within our rain. Look at the amount of garbage we put out every fortnight for the bin men. Years ago you had one metal bin for each household and back then people had large families. Sadly we are all on a downward spiral that the government do not want to recognise or address.
Most scientists believe environmental factors play a key role in this rise. “Human genetics hasn't altered over the past few decades,” said Lee, who was previously based at Cambridge University. “So something must be changing in the outside world in a way that is increasing our predisposition to autoimmune disease.”
They say it all stems from our gut. Yet we get sent to neurologists. haematologist. I question as to why the first port of call is not a gastrologist ? I am now years after my diagnosis of being B12 deficient being investigated by a gastrologist. Yet I have diagnosed hiatus hernia, errosive gastritis, IBS and diverticulitis ! I would have thought it obvious it is an absorbtion problem. 🤔
I take symprove and moringa extract but cant comment on the latter as not be taking it long. I found a little lemon juce in water helped with the gerd but not sure if it is helping with the inflammation seen in my intestines. 😳
Yes they are one of the samething I am told but dont quote me.
Vitamin B12 injections are usually for people with bodies that have problems absorbing vitamin B12 and those who have undergone gastric surgery. This is because shots enable the body to absorb vitamin B12 without going through the digestive system.
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