The Royal Society

[Polaris]

Interestingly, just stumbled on this :

“The Wonderful World of Vitamin B12”

youtu.be/J64Zl28XZuo(Not working as expected?)

[Technoid]

Peas with "naturally fortified" B12 sounds great Bringing the cost of B12 production down is certainly going to be of growing importance into the future. Fascinating to also hear about how reliant the world is on B12 production from China.

They do make some dangerously misleading statements about Seaweed and Mushrooms :

"Things like seaweed are quite good sources of vitamin B12"

This is absolutely not the case - some seaweeds (and algae) contain B12 but primarily B12 analogues which do not function as human-usable B12.

"certain types of mushrom are quite good sources of B12"

Nope, again, not the case. Although some varieties (like Shiitake) may contain some B12, none of the mushrooms commonly available have any significant amounts of confirmed human bio-available B12.

I'm quite surprised that The Royal Society would put out such poorly researched and potentially dangerous misinformation in that section.

Much more reliable info on B12 in plant foods to be found here:

Seaweeds : veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12...

Algae : veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12...

Mushrooms : veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12...

and in a recent video from Mic The Vegan who very responsibly reminds viewers to "keep supplementing":

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc5xI...(Not working as expected?)

I never before came across this claim that : "you need to be eating food for special proteins and factors to be released that enable you to take up B12 effectively into your body". In fact, most available sources maintain that B12 absorption is best when taken on an empty stomach. Will certainly look into this but I would love to know what research supports this.

She doesnt mention the proteins or factors specifically but I gather she most likely is talking about haptocorrin and intrinsic factor, necessary for B12 transport and absorption - I never heard a claim that these are only available when food is consumed. Further research required. It so happens that I do already take my B12 with meals though so if it was true it wouldn't change anything about how I take B12 😋

Thanks for the interesting video Polaris

[helvella in reply to Technoid]

I have often wondered about with food/on its own for B12 supplements. And tend to take on their own simply because of when I remember to take it!

But I really do see why with food makes sense.

[Technoid in reply to helvella]

in fact sources like the NHS and many other websites say the direct opposite, e.g :

"All patients should be counselled to take their dose on an empty stomach to maximise absorption "

southstaffordshirejointform...

I'm aware of research that mentions that intrinsic factor absorption is calcium-dependent, so that taking a calcium supplement with the B12 may be helpful.

"Patients receiving metformin have diminished B12 absorption and low serum total vitamin B12 and TCII-B12 levels because of a calcium-dependent ileal membrane antagonism, an effect reversed with supplemental calcium. "

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/109...

Although I'm not religious about it, I do sometimes take my small calcium supplement (~ 250mg) with the B12 but thats the only thing I've come across with any research backing.

Never came across a claim that haptocorrin and intrinsic factor are not available or even have reduced availability outside of meals. Would be interested to discover if such exists.

[helvella in reply to Technoid]

The longer I have been looking at medicine, biochemistry, etc., the more I realise how many absolutely fundamental questions have not been answered.

Even when the technology for doing so has been available for many years. And the basic costs would not be high (at least for early studies).

We sometimes have quite good answers to some of the most esoteric issues. With bloomin' great holes at the base.

[wedgewood]

It was an interesting video , but I was disappointed that it didn’t enlarge on Pernicious Anaemia , and that we patients need injected B12. Yes I knew that the raw materials for our injectable B12 came mostly from China ( that’s really scary !) The rest from France . Why are we not producing any? I did notice the inaccuracies about B12 in algae, seaweed etc , which our bodies cannot access . They should be told about this . But thank you for the video . 👍

[Luna57 in reply to wedgewood]

I totally agree with you 👍

[doityourself]

HiMy daughter in law (to be) is a plant scientist working on this project. It's certainly the future, indoor farming. Sadly doesn't really help PA sufferers as absorption issue remains. Maybe they can find a way of adding IF to plants to aid B12 absorbtion!

Thank you for sharing.

Interesting points raised by Technoid. I will ask them about the peas and seaweed issue you raised.

[LadyBothwell in reply to doityourself]

I’m not sure why they started talking about PA then focused on vegan or supplemented diets, was a bit confusing I think,

[wedgewood in reply to LadyBothwell]

Yes you are right !

[Orchard33]

More fascinating info about B12. Not least that our main source of synthesised B12 is China. Oh dear. Time to build our own B12 manufacture base? I think so.

[helvella in reply to Orchard33]

We should ensure that basic products have multiple sources, preferably spread across the continents. Entirely disregarding politics and economics, major disruptions can occur due to weather, earthquake, tsunami, volcano, meteorite and, I'm sure, numerous other causes.

[helvella]

Have just stolen that link for the Thyroid UK forum.

[ACritical]

Where does this story leave people who can not absorb the B12 through their gut/ intestines?

[Technoid in reply to ACritical]

Although they mention PA early in the video, the research to fortify peas with B12 is of no consequence if you have PA. Unfortunately

[helvella in reply to Technoid]

Is it possible for peas to be engineered to produce intrinsic factor (or something functionally similar enough to do the job)?

(This is a thought - not an endorsement of genetic engineering, etc.)

[Technoid in reply to helvella]

Good question. I have no idea but an interesting possibility.

[doityourself in reply to Technoid]

There is research going on alongside apparently to see if they can get intrinsic factor into vegetables I believe. What I'm not sure about is whether the body of someone with PA will be able to absorb it from food in order to process the B12.Can't remember who mentioned it but I don't think this work puts them in the category of GI foodstuff.

Lettusgrow crop production also eliminates the use of pestercides and harsh chemicals in our food. I'm not sure how they are negligent and irresponsible but I do agree they way Martin leaps from PA to diet induced b12 deficiency is confusing /misleading Pickle500.

[Pickle500]

Thanks for sharing the vid. Like Technoid, I was surprised that a welp respected institution and central scientist involved in B12 research, would put out such a video.

I feel there's a sense to all this of being 'a little science experiment' to see what happens. That there's high performing scientists and nutritionists saying things they simply don't know or understand.

B12 is the most complex vitamin and we all seem to be 'guessing' about how to manage it in the face of untenable farming practices.

It is negligent, dangerous, and irresponsible. And we MUST have accountability.

The truth at the heart of all of this is that diet is the central aspect to everyones health. Yet our primary healthcare providers in the UK understand the sum total of NOTHING to do with it.

Its an embarrassment

[BirdlessBox]

I watched the video and agree that some of what it said was wrong. I left this comment:

"The logic escapes me - so this difficult to produce and expensive supplement that is life-saving for people who cannot absorb it is then going to be diluted into water/soil for plants to take up to "sneak" B12 into people who have chosen to have a deficient diet and could be taking supplement directly, as they are advised to do? This is a woke, money making scam. The people with unavoidable B12 deficiency are already struggling to get their necessary supplies - this is such a waste."

[Polaris]

The answers here made me recall the book, ‘ The Saltpath’ as well as Raynor Winn’s follow up books, in which she mentions that husband, Moth, has a terminal neurological disease.  “Against all odds, he seems revitalised in nature”. For those who’ve not read it, it’s about how, having literally lost everything, they set out walking - 630 miles along the long distance coastal path.

Having become a successful author, they continue long distance walking because Moth’s condition improves and he feels much better when they do 🤗

I also vaguely recall reading a post by Martyn Hooper some years ago in which he told of friends with PA who bought a smallholding/farm? and, after a while, their PA appeared to miraculously improve without medication ? 

Wondering about all that contact with the earth and soil bacteria ?  

[BirdlessBox in reply to Polaris]

Yes, I think that is true. I heard an Indian Doctor say his vegetarian patients in India suffer less B12 deficiency than those in NZ and he thought it may be because Indian food supplies are less clean.

[Polaris]

Just also recalled another story of a Medicine man, who it was said miraculously cured a child by burying all but their head in the earth ! ?