Timings of 'supra physiologic' B12 doses . . . thru' day ( - for those who can absorb them !).

[Sid_Arthur]

Taking several divided doses can assist more to be absorbed, & allow blood levels to vary/fluctuate less than taking the same amounts as fewer, larger doses - this makes sense, as a general principle.

However, some consideration of the timing of doses, relative to meal times in particular, may well be worth considering? Sources of the other B vits - & vit C - may be from food, . . . and even supplements, varying case by case.

The absorption of B vits is said to be 'competive' - to prevent lower absorption of those from food &/,or supplements, surely separation in ⏳ from closest LARGE doses of the B12 will matter?

And, is it the case that vit C reduces the B12 absorption, by lowering intestinal pH temporarily ?

. . . just a couple of thoughts on the ⏳ings, . . . while 🎁❗ 😊

AtB,

Sid 😑

Friday 2 June 2023, . . . on a 🌞nny summer's p.m.

NB: Dr Chaney's 2019 bk, states "Oral B12 1mg/3mg/5mg per day" (p270), . . . but from a recent post, . . . I see some are benefiting from more than that. Could be, . . . by considering the timings of the doses, esp in relation to food & other vit Bs, vit C, the SAME effect can be experienced with a LOWER dose ( - as inexpensive as these supplements are becoming these days) ??!

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[charks]

This is my protocol which I have been following for the past three years i.e. diluting B12 in water and drinking it throughout the day. Taking B12 this way doesn't interfere with my other supplements.

[Technoid]

This seems a reasonable summary of the Vitamin C <-> B12 interactions from Jorg Schweikart of Sunday Natural : b12-vitamin.com/vitamin-c/

I don't think anyone should bother with taking Vitamin C supplements anyway as there is zero evidence for their being useful or effective (unless you enjoy kidney stones) and vitamin C is much safer and more beneficial if obtained from fruits + veggies. There is no evidence that the vitamin C amounts in foods are of any consequence to B12 absorption or B12 body stores.

Passive absorption of B12 is at 1% and is completely independent of intrinsic factor. Unlike intrinsic factor passive absorption does not saturate so I'm not convinced that you gain anything by spreading doses over the day, except for the ability to take smaller doses spread over the day rather than one single large dose or injection - this might be more convenient, or less convenient, I guess its a personal preference.

But I've never encountered any research suggesting that more B12 is aborbed via passive absorption if the equivalent dose is taken all at once or spread throughout the day. Would be interesting if there was some difference but it doesnt make sense considering that passive absorption cannot saturate.

Taking oral doses of B12 you are incredibly unlikely (I would venture to say impossible) to fully saturate TC-2 transport proteins in the blood as would happen from an injection.

Absorption via intrinsic factor of course is different and taking small amounts spread out throughout the day is an excellent idea as intrinsic factor saturates at about 2mcg every 3-4 hours. But this is of no consequence to those with PA - the majority of forum participants, since they have no working intrinsic factor due to the auto-immune destruction of IF.

[Sid_Arthur in reply to Technoid]

. . . thanks ! 👍 👌 ✊ - that article & site, beautifully composed, are new to me ! 😊

The last paragraph of the conclusion:

' So far, there is hardly any reason to assume that a negative interaction of any major relevance takes place between vitamins C and B12. If you want to exclude all risks however, when taking more that 500 mcg of vitamin C you should observe a four-hour gap between taking the two vitamins. ' . . . rather contracdicting the indication I'd formed from other (not recognised) sources!

And is the 'competitive absorption' of the B vitamins as much of a non- issue t🍒❓ N⛔t sure, . . . yet ❗ 😑

The page on B12 doses is quite interesting t🍒❗😊 A larger (1000+ug) daily B12 dose . . . works out to be equivalent to absorbing three relatively far smaller B12 doses, on the reckoning shown ! ( - And, it seems even larger weekly doses . . . are (potentially?) feasible!).

AtB,

Sid 😑

Friday 2 June 2023, . . . on a 🌞nny summer's p.m.

[[ NB: Dr Chaney's 2019 bk, states "Oral B12 1mg/3mg/5mg per day" (p270) - tho' from a recent post, . . . I see some are benefiting from more than that. Could be, . . . by considering the timings of the doses, esp in relation to food & other vit Bs, - if n⛔t vit C ! - the SAME effect can be experienced with LOWER 3 doses/day ( - as inexpensive as these supplements are becoming these days) ??! ]]

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[Technoid in reply to Sid_Arthur]

" A larger (1000+ug) daily B12 dose . . . works out to be equivalent to absorbing three relatively far smaller B12 doses, on the reckoning shown ! ( - And, it seems even larger weekly doses . . . are (potentially?) feasible!)."

Yes, all this is correct - but the tiny doses spread out between 2-3 doses across the day only work for a person who has working intrinsic factor. Those with PA have no functional intrinsic factor so, while three small doses (say 10mcg) taken spread out over the day would give a healthy person about 6mcg or so (a perfectly adequate dose), for someone with PA the most B12 you would absorb in total over the day from that dosing is 0.3mcg... well below the RDA.

And yes, its even possible to take 2k-2.5k mcg once a week and still comfortably meet the maintenance requirement.

[Sid_Arthur in reply to Technoid]

. . . & what abt vits B4, B8, B12 . . . & B13 - why aren't BigPharma & the supplements companies trying to market - even flog us - these ? ? ❓ . . . 😱 ❓ . . . 😕 ❓

----->>> b12-vitamin/b-complex/ . . . a VERY helpful, clearly written, digestible resource; thanks Technoid . . . 👍 👌 ✊ . . . 😊

. . . & I'd deduce/enviage B12 absorption via IF is far less affected by 'competitive absorption' ( - if at all?) than via passive absorption. Does that seem reasonable ?

Sid 😑

Sunday 4 June 2023 - a 🌞nny still summer's p.m, w' blue skies.

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[Technoid in reply to Sid_Arthur]

I've come across competitive absorption where a transporter is shared, such as Zinc vs Iron:

Ref : academic.oup.com/ajcn/artic...

but never came across it in relation to B12. B12 has a very complex and particular absorption route that is (to my knowledge) not used by any other molecule.

I've not seen any detailed studies of passive absorption, only that it occurs across all mucous membranes in the digestive system, works at about 1% of any B12 dose, and it is nowhere mentioned that its possible to saturate it, unlike intrinsic factor.

This makes sense because under normal circumstances the body would never expect to get so much B12 that passive absorption would occur. I've read elsewhere that it could be described as an "accident of physiology", and is thus not "controlled" by the body because its just not something that would have ever happened to our bodies until high dose B12 formulations were invented

[EiCa in reply to Technoid]

Just to be clear...I read on a forum of the "diminishing returns" phenomena of B12 supplementation (and probably applies to many other supps). Basically, we can only absorb a certain amount of the B12 at one time. So, for those of us who only inject once or twice a month, would we be better off injecting smaller amounts more often? I have been perplexed about this for a while. Is there an estimate of how much a 1000mcg. sub-cu injection is absorbed? Would two 500 mcg. injections spaced a few days apart be a better way to do it? (would certainly not be more economical with more ampoules and syringes needed) Thanks for any thoughts. Perhaps I am thinking about this all wrong!

[Sid_Arthur in reply to EiCa]

. . . the diminishing returns view makes sense, & would appear to be supported by others' reports, t🍒❗

E.g. see b12-vitamin.com/injections/ . . . where ~70% of hydroxo-B12 is absorbed, . . . notably higher than the synthetic cyano- form.

However, I'm seeing such data as useful starting points in each case, . . . with opportunities to 'fine tune' for best longer term effects on an individual basis.

A combination of 💉s, . . . & oral supps may work better for some than others. The view in the above site seems to be that even those with IF issues can usually absorb B12 passively, . . . even if at a low absorption rate of ~1+%, like others. There may be some exceptions to this, in a large enough popn sample, of course.

. . . like many on here, . . . become aware of these nuances, by considering reasonable views, . . . & experimentation t🍒❗

Sid 😑

Monday 5 June 2023 - & into the later p.m. ... w' ☁dy skies.

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[Sid_Arthur]

. . . yes, with the now widespread & ready availability of B12 products, including 💉s, . . . & the numbers of pple resorting to them ( - while much of the medical profession remains clueless !), . . . our societies may well have embarked on a huge socio-medical experiment, wholly unplanned, with these supra physiologic doses ( - perhaps for the 1st ⏳ in history, ... for B12).

. . . similar may have occurred with vit C ... since the 70s, due to Linus Pauling's views, . . . which look to have largely died down now ? Not aware of any significant views/evidence that Pauling was more right than not. Seems B12 physiology is a wholly different 'kettle of 🐠' ... from what I can see! 😊

Sid 😑

Sunday 4 June 2023 - & into the later p.m. ... w' blue skies. 😊

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