This was part of her response, when I said it was a money making scheme...
"We were quoted around £7 per ampule then our syringes our needles our Swab boxes for sterile treatments £1.50 each then sharps collections swab yellow back collections huge insurance monthly premiums for injections heating lighting clinic rates rents staff wages etc etc all lead to a profit per injection for me around £8 if I did myself if Lisa doing she gets half that so £4 for me lol !
Maybe you weren't aware of the ridiculous costs we face to administer but thought it might be helpful we certainly can't buy bulk either as you are limited to 5 items per prescription then we pay £35 for prescription then £6.95 postage !
I honestly can say the above is the truth I've heard we could get cheaper I've heard a box of 10 for £25 is available but im sceptical
So we don't buy for £1 and make £24 profit and it works out £15 of £20 a shot if purchased as a package
I need to really look at this as not profitable and too many worries over client not really needing "
I didn't realise they didn't buy from Germany like us.
She did say she wanted to support those diagnosed deficient but who don't want to self inject, rather than promoting B12 from a beauty weight loss point of view.
I guess I tend to forget what my "free" NHS treatment actually has cost (Doctor's, nurse's. receptionist's salaries, surgery overheads and prescription charges for the last twenty years since I was sixty) my having had cyanocobamalin B12 injections every month for P.A. for the past fifty years.
I think I've has my N.H.I money's worth.
Perhaps I should offer my wife some remuneration as she has been giving me my injections since March 2020 and the only "service" received from the surgery in all that time has been an annual diabetic checkup appointment by telephone.
What she is saying is those who cannot get injections from a GP or want more regular injections denied by a GP. (She doesn't necessarily support her colleagues promoting B12 for beauty). I am surprised at their costings though.
Of course we would all use our GP service that we pay for when we can access it! I buy my own from Germany anyway
On costs are for the whole business and all business activities across all hours of operation. Only a very very small amount of any total would be needed for the provision of one B12 injection.
1 x sharps bin holds many many needles and syringes - collection and disposal only when that bin is full. Not a great on cost.
Swab boxes for sterile treatments - no idea what is meant by this. Not something used in hospitals (or at home), when doing IM injections. If she means the small methylated swabs for swabbing injection site before injection - these come in boxes of multiple items. Their use is no longer recommended (under NHS guidelines) for SC or IM injections. (They are very inexpensive anyway).
Why is a beautician using prescription B12 for business purposes? Who is prescribing and to whom (prescription items are per individual only and not for multiple persons). It is illegal to 'sell-on' prescription items in the U.K. (B12 or otherwise). Unless there is an individual prescription from a GP for each person injected, what this business is doing is illegal (i.e. obtaining prescription items (the B12) and them selling them on to clients).
It would be illegal for a beautician to offer B12 injections as a medical treatment - since in the U.K. B12 for injection is a prescription only 'medication'. A beautician can only offer B12 injections for their … 'whatever they want to call the benefits'… so long as they are not advertised or offered as medical treatments. So, as a beautician, 'supporting those who are [B12] deficient' would be an illegal activity (in the U.K.). Additionally, this person is not qualified to support or treat people with a medical condition.
This all seems very muddle headed, both in terms of practical business management (supplier and costing issues et al), knowledge of the boundaries within which B12 can be offered by beauticians, and the laws that pertain to providing B12 as a medical treatment.
Thank you for a very informative reply! Interesting regarding the 'prescription' element... so do most beauty establishments just buy from Germany? I've heard these beauticians go on training courses before they are allowed to inject, not sure if this is from an insurance perspective? I'm going to discuss more with her, but want to have facts and tread carefully and she is a well known and established beautician, but it is one of the employees who went on a B12 course and try to bring this to her salon.
I don't understand what she means by prescriptions as surely as a POM, who signs it off? 🤔
I have to echo what the beautician has said about overheads. The costs for sharps, and general clinical waste collection (which I’m guessing is what the person is referring to as the swab box) are spread over different treatments, but in addition to the many other overheads, all these cumulative small costs become very expensive per treatment. I do a job that requires a similar set up, and have to deal with people querying my pricing all the time, because they think I’m making a fortune from my services.
I know someone who provides a b12 service from their beauty/massage business, and they do it because they themselves have pernicious anemia and understand how much people often need extra doses, but don’t want to self inject. A close family member of theirs passed away years ago after having similar symptoms. They attended a course through a company that acts as their prescriber, and they buy all their b12 vials and equipment through the company, as they are scared if would invalidate their insurance if they didn’t do so. It is often much pricier to go through these companies than it is to buy it from Germany.
It was actually this person that I had my first b12 injection from after my gp didn’t consider my levels to be low enough to warrant injections. It was life changing for me, and gave me the confidence to later learn to self inject, which they encouraged and supported. I was spending a small fortune on patches, lozenges and drops, and still having severe neurological symptoms before I saw their advert. After my personal experience, I fully support the services these people provide.
That is where I see some positive helping those who cannot SI, but as Foggyme highlighted, if prescriptions are got from a central provider, someone, somewhere must be a nurse? are laws being followed with regard to the 'selling on' of the prescribed B12? Or using them for other clients, not named on the prescription.
I do know a manager in a medical supply company, and they have nurses and other medical professionals on their books, so I would imagine these b12 course companies would have a similar set up for remote prescriptions. They did have a similar thing for Botox prescriptions some time ago, but changed the law and that’s why you see a lot of nurses and ex nurses performing Botox injections now, as it needs to be personally prescribed (although in many cases they are still doing it remotely, illegally)
It may be the case that b12 remote prescriptions are a still legal grey area, or that it’s not heavily enforced legislation.
I think it must be strange, for those working in these clinics and salons, to see clients arrive and be fairly sure they're not going for a botox treatment/intravenous drip/tanning/etc etc and just keep turning up for B12. I think they know when they've got a B12 deficient client but they cannot say anything and the clients shouldn't either. Once its 'out of the bag' that you may be deficient they could and probably should stop serving you. Their services are intended to be 'health boosting' not medically supportive. They dont ask you for a blood test and if they did, and you were deficient, they may have to refuse to serve you. Even if they wanted to help you.
So. In the end, they can charge whatever they want to cover nurse/clinician salaries, equipment, premises, rent etc. As a business owner, £8 profit on a couple of injections a week probably doesn't seem worth doing.
Ultimately, it's the B12 testing and medics lack of knowledge where the issue is. If the testing worked, and we had some B12/PA experts, you would never be having such a chat with them.
I go to a beautician to have false eyelashes done when I can. She is iron deficient and B12 deficient herself. Has gastrointestinal symptoms, suffers fatigue etc etc. She gets her B12 injection once every 3 months. We talk at length about our health. She does not offer vitamin B12 injections as has not trained in it.
She has completed courses for fillers and possibly Botox (can’t remember) but cannot give as she needs a ‘nurse prescriber’ . So, MAYBE this is how beauticians get Prescription Only Medicine (POM) from the U.K. because they know a doctor/nurse or there is one in the clinic. Just an aside, my beautician is at a loss as can’t give fillers and is actually contemplating doing a nursing degree. 🤷♀️
This beautician offers a type of filler called profhilo too and injects her clients, not me...(looks good, but I'm nervous about my face) I think one of the ladies is an ex dental nurse, but they don't write prescriptions? They both inject facial fillers though at the salon.... I am Very intrigued now how they get to inject and get prescriptions without being trained nurses. Lots of clinics do botox ( I wonder If they are all run by ex nurses?).
I think my lines show a story !! Laughter and hanging in there with gritted teeth.
That was something my beautician said she could get POM if she became a dental nurse but they stopped doing the course. I think possibly you are right, ex-nurses who keep their registration.
Hi, I'm recently retired as a Registered Tutor of Dental Nursing and former Registered General Nurse.You are correct, there are NO circumstances where a registered dental nurse would be licensed to give injections and certainly not to administer or prescribe medicines. It's just not within the remit of training or a requirement for registration.
They may be receiving additional training, but that would be unconnected with their dental registration and indeed it is illegal for them to give any suggestion that it is part of their registration as a dental nurse.
I don't understand how the beauty industry is regulated because the whole thing seems to me to be total mess, and a dangerous one at that !
I really have opened a can of worms on this one. They asked me a few questions when I said I had a B12 deficiency, and now I am caught up in long discussions with her, and more questions than answers, thankfully this group is helping me unravel some of it!
I see so many Botox/fillers/B12 injections advertised in salons and never really thought how they 'Qualify' to inject of where they get their prescriptions from.. I guess either it isn't illegal or not very well regulated.
I think I will step away from the costing/prescription conversation with her, and stick to answering B12 questions from a personal perspective, and I have told her, if clients are deficient they need to see a doctor to balance their folic acid etc and if it relates to any other underlying conditions etc. She has asked me how much the liver can store, not sure why?
Where I do have a bit of support, is when patients who like me were very nervous of SI and may have paid for 'top ups' between GP appointments, but luckily I am now very confident and have SI with the support of my GP practice for months now.
I'd never want to deprive anyone suffering PA from accessing this source of additional injections, but nobody should have to resort to going to a beautician in the first place. It really irks that they can get hold of B12 easily and inject when we patients can't !
Regulations governing the type of procedures which can be performed by registered nurses and dental nurses are so strict and tight, yet invasive "treatments" can happen in a beauty salon.
By the way, I'm not disrespecting beauticians, my sister trained as one and I was pleasantly surprised by the depth of knowledge in anatomy and physiology they have to attain.
However there are just so many things wrong with the regulation of salon procedures, and especially the disparity in access to B12 Injections between beauticians and PA sufferers !
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