I just thought this could be interesting: medrxiv.org/content/10.1101...
It was also mentioned in this article:
Another study about COVID-19 and B12 - Pernicious Anaemi...
Another study about COVID-19 and B12
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Lunario
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The links don’t work
I’ve been able to open the links. Thanks for posting.
That's a really poor study. One of the first thing you learn as a scientist is that you alter one thing at a time when doing your experiments. But they looked at a combination of Vitamin D, Magnesium, and Vitamin B12. So you don't know which of those, or which combination of those, was responsible for any change. It could be all three are needed together D and M and B. Or just one of them D, M, or B. Or D and M, Or M and B. Or D and B. Seven possible conclusions.
Compare those results with those where they looked at Vitamin D alone - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... - and you'll see that it's most likely to be just the Vitamin D responsible.
Thanks for your response. It's always a pleasure to read your well-founded remarks.👍
in reply to Lunario
Well rounded? A study of four people and one element is more well rounded than a study of 43 people? A well rounded remark would be one that considers the merits and demerits or different kinds of studies. Not one which dismisses a legitimate study based solely on the assertion that combination studies aren't valid for which he provides no rationalization and then provides a four man study as an example of a good study? I can't see how that's even basically squared off never mind well rounded.
Lunario in reply to
That was a response to fbirder's comment.
in reply to Lunario
Yeah I know. His comment where he said studying combinations was a poor study and posted as I assume an example of a better study one with four people in it. Lol! The epitome of a bad study is one with four people in it.
fbirder in reply to
Go find somebody else to pick on.
52 here - link.springer.com/article/1...
8297 here - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
335 here - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
and over 100,000 here - frontiersin.org/files/Artic...
in reply to fbirder
I'm not picking on you please don't take it personally. Its just that a study of four people is hardly a good example to put up as a contrast to what you called a poor study. I am critizing the study itself not you personally. Although you did post it so in that regard it is personal. If you're going to call out a study for being poor then post an even poorer study as a counter . Quid pro quo, if you will make an argument and it doesn't stand up I'm afraid I will knock it down. Its nothing personal as I am sure you weren't picking the person who's post you called a poor study.
Don't worry about it. Some people get upset when proven wrong. Just ignore them. Unfortunately Healthunlocked doesn't allow you to mute people automagically, so I have to keep a list.
in reply to fbirder
Its a study of a combination of elements. Which is as valid an approach as studying individual elements on a system which uses elements in combinations.
When you analyse a working system you have to take into account its working parts that are interdependent. Some measurements can have an in out output relatationship on their own. Like outing petrol in a car the more you put in the further you go. The same isn't true of brake pads. Or engine oil. Yet without engine oil if you keep putting in petrol and driving the system at some point the oil will beocmr depleted. As you raise vitimin d the output of your immune system increases. But it also uses up magnesium ... So if all things being equal an imput directly or indirectly leads to an inequality you have to account for and replace that inequality. Because its only when all other things are equal that one factor alone can be studied.
You're study has 4 patients. Which seems extremely small. And their one has 43? Which is also tiny. For significant patterns to arise you need more than four people. You also need those four people who have all other elements be equal to target one element. So as bad studies go I can't say your example here is in anyway throwing shade on the posters study.
charks in reply to
Well done gonnamakeit. I would have made exactly the same observations as you. In my opinion fbirder is far too skeptical. On a plus note. I see you have taken your B12. Your spelling is much improved. The oral b12 spray seems to be working for you. Although fbirder has proved that oral b12 doesn't work. Something about too big molecules.
in reply to charks
The tinnitus I noticed last night is almost completely gone!
in reply to charks
I think many of us are not skeptical enough. To be skeptical you must use the tools of skepticism. You must know firstly, what they are, And then you must apply them equibly to your own ideas and experiments as you do to the ideas of others. A sharp mind is a safe tool in the hands of someone who has first wielded it upon themselves and by doing so learned to be exacting with the blade...cutting away what is bad while leaving intact what is good. I often stab in the dark wrongly myself and am grateful when a sharper mind points out my mistake. Yes the spelling my phone screen keeps glitching and when it does I can't properly press the letters on my phone with my large hands. But today it is behaving itself. I do feel a bit dizzy and fell over teice trying to out on my socks!! And usually I have good balance. I feel a bit tingly but some others have sajd they feel this way with b12 so I'm not taking is as a bad sign. My teeth also hurt ..maybe my nerves are repairing themselves. Hopefully that's all it is.
charks in reply to
What I meant to say, and please don't take offense, your posts today are much more coherent. This was one of the first improvements I noticed with my sublingual B12. I became much rational and logical. I became less stupid. I think your oral B12 is definitely working.
And when I'm in stupid mode my iphone won't behave itself either. I think it's operator error. I am probably low in B12 and it affects fine motor control in my hands.
in reply to charks
My screen flashes and jumps ... I can't be bothered spending the money on a new one till this one completely gives out on me though.
in reply to charks
No offence ever taken if you've got offence to give you can keep it. None of my business. Lol! But I do think you may be right. I am thinking a lot about things.... My son explained a topological thing to me the other day and I actually followed it. Mostly I transpose anything complex onto apples and pears...some simple situation and if it tallies OK if it jarrs agaist what I know to be true on the small scale I just don't bother because its too abstract. Like economics. If it doesn't work in my head with apples and pears at the market then its all fiscal adjustment abstract nonsense and I have no interest. Even though I'm sure its all very important and holding the planets economy together it seems like nonsense to my simple mind. If it doesn't scale down and still make sense I find it hard to swallow. I don't even try to chew it I just spit it out. If it makes sense to me then it intrigues me. So for this question I thought of a car. Yes we need to separate the parts to establish what is the fuel and what is the engine. But does it make sense if you want to go places to keep the parts separate ..or to only give the car petrol when brake pads and tires and oil are nessisary components. No. So combinations seem very relevant and important to complex systems like a car. and humans are way more complex with way more parts and functions. so I can't accept the idea that separate is the best way forwards for whole healthy systems. That's my childish logic anyway. I think maybe your right ..not a month ago I was staring at walls completely blanked out...not even remembering what remembering was that I might be able to try to remember...just blank. I still can't remember knots of things but things from my childhood have cone into my mind that I haven't remembered for years! And its not just the b12 because that started happening before I took it. Its the combination of essential elements I reckon! Lol!
charks in reply to
Again I agree with you. Maybe we should get married! Only joking. I'm very happy with my partner. He has been so supportive. I also believe that nutrition is very important. I try to eat healthily and take a shed load of vitamins. Interestingly, since taking sublingual B12, whenever I eat anything with sugar I get a 'sugar rush'. A bit like line of speed ( misspent youth). I think you are feeling the same effect. You call it curiosity. I'm enjoying it very much. It makes me feel so happy and full of energy. Others on this forum have experienced a similar effect. Unfortunately they say it wears off with time.
Actually I get the sugar rush when I eat anything. All food is eventually made into glucose in the body. But the effect is more noticeable with sugar.
in reply to charks
Oh totally I have been having that!! I've been walking down the road and just saw a butterfly and felt like a rush of excitement and glee and was grinning to nyself like a loony about it lol! OK that's good to know what that is!! That's totally it. Like ooh how fascinating!! 🤪Ping!! Haha it is damn good! I think Mr Brian might be coming out of his coma! I'm a girl lady person by the way lol! I even watched bake off and found James mc avoy who's name I can remember so attractive and I have not been in the least attracted or said phwoar!! For a long time! I just assumed I'd grown some sense in my old age and was done with all of that and now I'm like oh... That's still a thing. I mean I'd happily have that all stay in a coma cos they ain't nothing but trouble but hopefully I can control myself. I managed not to chase the butterfly.
charks in reply to
You would have loved speed.
in reply to charks
Nope. Tried it a few times. Once I thought I was going to die cos my heart kept stopping when the drum and base dropped ....once everything slowed down around me and was the most boring night I can remember...another time it was fine but it was also on e and acid and I've always been happy on acid. That and the last man dancing was always a vegan who drank water and got up for work the next day without a headache lol! I'll try most things once but speed definitely not a love of mine. Lol!
Showgem in reply to
I may be getting confused, but in the first study mentioned, of those 43 it seems only 17 received the supplements. There is very little background information given and no indication of which vitamin was of benefit. The study of vit D, has only 4 individuals but the information we are given is in much more depth and backed up by many other studies. So it may be only the vit D that is beneficial, we don't really know from the first study mentioned.
in reply to Showgem
The first study is an observational study. This means people are coming into hospital with covid going on respirators everyone's panicked and worried people are trying different things... Some antivirals some what was the stuff trump had hydrocholrquin whatever... All of that is happening...and while the normal running of the hospital is going on the observe the outcomes of different patients over different periods of time. I think the four man one is also an observationally study but all it actually observes is that two people who got more had a better outcome than two who got less. But it does give background info. If you look at some of the other links fbrider posted there are actual on purpose studies in there where they set about to measure the effect of vitamin d..they are tow different scenarios entirely. And serve two different functions. One is to find which action did best when multiple actions were taken...another is to investiage the properties of a thing. So in a snakes on a plane scenario you observe that 32 of 43 snakes you splashed martinis on shribelled up and died..you shout to the people trapped at the front of the plane...martini seems to work...you don't stop to find out if its the olive in the martini or the rum or the coke (no idea what's in a martini to be honest) you just observe what seems to work for you and other hospitals or people dealing with snakes on a plane also report and then a controller on the ground analyses those in a meta study confirms with some other studies done on purpose that found micotoxins In the olives causes snakes to turn necrotic ...then the controller puts out the abp everyone get the olives throw them at the snakes everyone is saved end of movie. But before that you are just throwing martinis at snakes trying to see what's working. Right now with covid they're doing lots of observational studies on lots of things and trying to share those and share simple things that can help. So that's why those studies don't have lot of people they're part of a larger global effort to collect data from different hospitals where there may be onky small amounts of cases drugs may be combined with other medications etc. Its on the fly. Versus the kind of research you sit down and plan apply for a grant for it etc.
in reply to Showgem
Also the study of four people if I remember it right didn't give much of a background on them personally the artical just padded out around it with other information. But my memory is terrible so I could be missing it up.
As older covid patients are likely to have lower readings of VitaminB12 than younger covid patients, due to low stomach acid content which is common in older patients generally , I’m not surprised that they benefitted from B12 supplementation . Probably applies to vitamin D as well . Apparently most of the population doesn’t have the optimum amount of magnesium .
in reply to wedgewood
Yes half the population I read. That's a huge amount of malnourishment to be happening in modern times isn't it?!!
That's very interesting! I've been supplementing with Vit D & Magnesium alongside my B12 for years.
Leils in reply to
Yep.
I tend to think that B12, D and Mag are the golden 3 for supplements
So much evidence from so many people, anecdotal or scientific, that these things have helped people.
Probably because of intensive farming and depleted soils, indoor lifestyles, sugary diets with auto immune triggers and obesity.
But we can't easily go back to foraging in the forest so supplements it is!
Good study, bad study is that really the question in this instance. It's about time we cast aside the mainstream thinking of partitioning the body mindset.
The body is a miraculous organism and every organ, every functional pathway works synergystically together. So if we need vit D (which we surely do I believe and at high levels) then we also need to have enough of all of the other fat soluble vitamins - all work synergystically together. So D, A, E and K2. All crucial. Maybe we can absorb enough of some from food/the sun but more likely not and so need supplements.
When did your NHS GP ever offer to test your vit A , K2, or E levels? Vit D testing is fashionable because the population is so low in levels because of the introduction of the70yr old 'Food Guidelines' following the end of post war rationing and the poor Natural Saturated Fat bad science ! Not forgetting the introduction of sun block, so all resulting in the poor health of the majority. And with regard to vitamin K2 the NHS it seems don't even know it exists (well certainly GP's don't) because it's seperate function to K1 was only discovered in the 1990's.
Obviously the same can be said for minerals. Shortage of due to poor modern farming/growing methods and the culturally change of diet because of food processing and the use of chemicals , herbicides, insecticides killing off your once healthy microbiome. Glyphosate (RoundUp, sprayed everywhere in the UK) damaging your abillity to make vit D from the sun. Bodies therefore depleted of are not healthy and so not functioning properly and not able to absorb or make the nutrients that are essential for our metabolic pathway function.
We need our microbiome organisms to be balanced, processing and releasing and making the nutrients and vitamins we depend on for life, no leaky intestines/brain. And happily functioning mitochondria in our cells not locked into defence mode because of our poorly functioning bodies and brain
So it stands to reason that in order for our immune system to protect us from Covid 19 and for our bodies not to be susceptible to the enslaught of the damage incurred by the virus we need to be taking as many essential heathy foodstuffs and supplements as possible.
What if there was a study that showed all natural mineral support including magnesium , all vitamin supplementation, digestive enzymes, proelytic enzymes such as serrapeptase to clear the blood and lungs especially required if cells under attack from a virus, CoQ10 and PQQ, also essential amino acids. Supporting your liver with TUDCA to ensure all waste/toxins/ dead cells are removed from the system readily with healthy bile and lots of clean water for kidneys and lymph so all detox working well. And that there is included in our diet prebiotics to feed the positive organisms in our microbiome. And the creation of a healthy mindset with knowing that you are doing all you can and so supporting your mitochondria.
What if such a study was carried out to evaluate how a healthy body fights off such a virus. It's not about what supplements you include or don't include in a study. It's about trying to be as healthy as you can be using food and as many supplements as need be
in reply to LynneG
Here here. And these were sick people being observed. Not a set up to find out some things we already know about isolated components.
I believe in functional medicine. It makes complete sense to me. It appears that you do to.
Dr Neal Barnard is my hero.
I certainly do, first introduced to by the Chris Kresser podcast years ago followed by Dr Tom O'Bryan's Guten Summit. I remember the moving story Dr Tom told of how his father died far too young of a sudden heart attack. At postmortem a reason could not be found. Dr Tom being who he was and knowing the pathologist pressed and pressed again and again until the reason was found. Vitamin B12! for the sake of a supplement costing few pennies he said, his father's life could have been saved but nobody ever looked.
I will look into Dr Neal Barnard's work, Thanks
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