Daily Mule on B12 deficiency.

[fbirder]

My google alert came up with this...

dailymail.co.uk/health/arti...

[clivealive Forum Support]

A "story" I can relate to going back 45 years,

[helvella]

Someone posted on Thyroid UK already!

It reads very much better than most journalistic attempts.

I was particularly surprised (and pleased) to see Professor Smith suggesting universal taking of 500 micrograms of B12 daily for the over-50s. Do we know anything of this Professor?

[Gambit62 Administrator in reply to helvella]

sounds like he's probably part of one of the units at Oxford University that's looking into dementia - there has been quite a lot of work done there but the studies in relation to vit B12 have been rather mixed ... and the reporting has, as ever, just swung from one extreme to the other without really explaining what the outcomes of studies really were, what were the knowns and what were the unknowns ... may be there have been some breakthroughs in the last 2 years but the last time I looked (early 2016) the general conclusion seemed to be that B12 would only help with memory problems where B12 absorption was an issue.

[Marz in reply to helvella]

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu........

Prof Smith begins to talk 4 minutes into the video .... from PAS Conference

[helvella in reply to Marz]

Thanks Marz and Gambit62 .

By the way, the reason I don't watch many videos that are posted is a combination of things. Number one is the impossibility of concentrating through the sales-spiel, umm-ing, err-ing, and repetitiveness of some of the presenters. Number two has been limited download capacity - and not wanting to run out of bandwidth usage allowance. The second no longer applies!

[Gambit62 Administrator in reply to helvella]

if it is the talk I remember then there wasn't any sales spiel - and it was actually quite a good presentation on the subject - was looking at patients with mild cognitive impairment and giving them doses that were of the order of 100x RDA (based on theorising that you needed to use passive absorption to get enough B12 in and about 1% is absorbed passively. They were also supplementing folic acid.

There was a study after his that had different results and pointed to B12 only helping where B12 was part of the problem.

[helvella in reply to Gambit62]

No sales spiel at all! - It is an excellent video/presentation having just had a look.

My comment (and I should have made it clear) was about the general case of posted videos.

Maybe, as you say in relation to a later study, B12 only helps when it is part of the problem. The big issue for me (and many others) as an individual is how I'd ever know that B12 is, or is not, a part of the problem. Never having had a B12 test and without sufficient justification to get one on the NHS. Having supplemented for a long time (on a somewhat irregular basis), where am I? Would a serum B12 test be at all useful?

[Marz in reply to helvella]

b12deficiency.info/signs-an...

B12 deficiency is a bit like the thyroid - testing is a good guideline but symptoms too must be considered. Scroll down in the above list to view symptoms and you don't need them all

There is also a list on the PAS website.

Having a blood test now may well show skewed results - on the other hand .....

[Gambit62 Administrator in reply to helvella]

Its not just an issue for you it is an issue for everyone because there just isn't a test that you can look at and say 'yes that is what is going on' - as with most conditions it's a question of looking for as many indicators as you can and seeing what fits the observable facts best - problem is that most GPs just aren't aware of all the ifs and buts and the general understanding of applying statistical averages to an individual is really poor ... Aristotle would be turning in his grave .... but then I think Aristotle was one of the first documented users of the phrase 'when I look at the youth of today I despair of the future' ... though he would have said it in ancient Greek. Don't know about educating GPs about general medical conditions - really think that medicine would benefit from a bit more attention to understanding statistics and a good dose of basic logic that might give many the confidence to realise that it isn't about being the fount of all knowledge.

[fbirder in reply to Gambit62]

But there is a test that your u can look at and say 'yes, that is what is going on.

It can determine if oral B12 is absorbed. If it isn't then it can tell you if that's due to a lack of IF, or another gut problem, or small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, or pancreatitis.

It's called the Schilling Test.

The only problem is that it needs radioactive cobalt, which isn't made any more. If we could persuade the government to pay for its production then most of us could get a definite diagnosis.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch...

[helvella in reply to fbirder]

Non-production was an unforeseen consequence of the BSE epidemic. Seems something with a bovine source was used in its production.

[humanbean in reply to helvella]

David Smith gets mentioned a few times on this site :

healthinsightuk.org/

Prof. Smith and his research group did research into high-dose B vitamins and the speed of brain shrinkage in people with Mild Cognitive Impairment. It was a very good trial with very good results. But giving people high dose B vitamins isn't commercially profitable so it got unfairly trashed.

healthinsightuk.org/2014/09...

healthinsightuk.org/2015/08...

[Polaris in reply to helvella]

PRofessor A. David Smith is involved with studies in B12 and dementia

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...

Seems, like Sally Pacholok and Dr Stuart, he believes serum B12 test levels are set too low.

[evilellie]

Quite interesting about her fast onset. My GP was pretty adamant that pernicious anaemia couldn't have a (relatively) fast onset, and I must have 'something else' wrong with me as well (this was used as per usual to justify not giving me more frequent injections). Funny though that they couldn't be bothered to find out what the something else was. If there really was something wrong with me that was making me faint etc you would think it would be important to find out.

[fbirder in reply to evilellie]

My PA hit me like a ton of bricks.

I suspect I'd had a problem for many years, but I'd just put it down to getting old.

Then I had a colonoscopy, where I was given nitrous oxide. I suspect that this wiped out the stored B12 that my body had been relying on. From that moment, until treatment began a few months later, I was a wreck. Serum B12 was 85 pmol/L - which is very low.

[evilellie in reply to fbirder]

I think mine was also caused by nitrous oxide use. Though it didn't kick in until about 1 year after the nitrous oxide, when it did I was fainting, unable to stay awake for more than an hour at a time, and hearing my heartbeat in my head about a month after I started feeling bad. I honestly felt like my body was just turning itself off and quite quickly.