Hi I have a L4/L5 degeneration discs and in pain daily. I have numbness in right leg constant and now it's in both legs.

[Brookfield12]

I am having a lot of neck pain and is very uncomfortable and fills like grinding. I have had one injection in spine and nothing else. What can I do next.

[Hidden]

Hello BOB here

What has the Specialist/GP suggested regarding your condition

Thanks

BOB

[Brookfield12 in reply to Hidden]

Not alot as physio just makes it worst. For some reason they say I am too young to have the operation but l am in constant pain everyday. My pain medication is tramadol two in morning then two in evening along with my anilitripline which I take four at night. I have had one injection in my spine but nomore.

[Hidden]

Helllo BOB here

What has caused all of this, and how young are you ??.

Generally if you are in the teens or early twenties they most probably would prefer not to operate as the spine does not fully develop until the late twenties.unless it is a congenital problem.

The medications you are on are for pain control and nuralogical pain, the Amtryplene should be suppressing nerve pain in back and for an adult this medication would be something in the region of 75mg at night. Tramadol 50mg would be up to eight daily, although again this could be dependent of age.

The other types of medications may be NSID s that would reduce swelling.

Possibly if you are having problems with physio, possibly a pain clinic may be an idea, they would suggest the use of TENS and relaxation techniques.

Some how i feel you need to have a diagnosis regarding your problem. would seem from your condition your problems are in the lumber region, so this would not effect your neck.

The lumber region may effect the sciatic nerve, both conditions are at the opposing ends of the spine

Good luck with GP, under the circumstances you will need to follow the GPs advice, as I am not qualified to make these decisions

BOB

[rick1945 in reply to Hidden]

The trouble with taking all of these painkillers is severe constipation,

Brookfield12, it looks like you have Arthritis in the neck that can only be relieved by having an operation to have a new disc inserted,

I am a 72 year old male and have just had a stenosis in my back reduced and now am in 10 times as much pain as I was before the op I had a bad fall twenty two years ago now they decide to operate for the above stenosis, after my op my GP gave me all these painkillers that caused me severe constipation since my operation 16 weeks ago that has just about destroyed my anus with all the straining trying to go to the toilet, my internal piles are now hanging out, try wiping those after going to the toilet, I have since given up all these useless painkillers and am taking LACTULOSE, 30 ml a day this has helped, but if I had known what this spinal reduction had caused I would not have had it as it has left me totally buggered, can't walk,drive lay down, sit, stand, and non of my doctors give two f's,

Good luck with your doctors

[thenunn]

Hi, I have the same and am on gabapentin /co-codomal,and dicoflenic when i cannot cope,which at the present is a lot. No op for me ,i am told it would not bring me sufficient long term benefit i translate that as it's not cost effective lol. I think whether we are granted the op or not is a bit of a postcode lottery really. I do not find the meds really help with my pain ,they just zone me out so i dont notice it and sleep. I can only suggest you keep on at them. good luck and best wishes

[Brookfield12 in reply to thenunn]

I was on diclofenac but that is one thing the physio did get the doctor to change. So I am now on slow release tramdol and anilitripline which don't really work but I'm doing what docs tell me to do. I read other people's story and then read medical and they say if it longer then 6 wks to seek advice and mine has been for 5 years. The doctors make me feel that I am complaining about nothing but I would love them to live my life in constant pain.

[Hidden in reply to thenunn]

I was told there was an op for me but as the sucess rate was only 50% (turn it round and thats 50% failure rate, every other person) then I would have to be more or less paralysed and doubly incontinent before they would consider doing it, as it could definitely make me worse if I was the unlucky one.

I would need to take my time in selecting the surgeon, I know too many first hand disasters ranging from being the unlucky ones to wrong ops being done, then needingmore surgery to correct it.

I'd rather stick with the devil I know than create a new one to live with.

If you do consider surgery make sure you talk about the failures rather than the sucesses. Knowing why they failed will help you understand better where you fit into having an op or not.

[thenunn in reply to Hidden]

zanna thats pretty much what i was told,and what i've found out and i agree ,i would rather have the pain than a failed op.

[Milosmum in reply to Hidden]

I would advise anyone to think very carefully before having a spinal fusion op, I had it done and since then the pain just gets worse and worse. I had the op in 1993 they put the metal work in the wrong place which is to risky to take it out and start again as they would have to go in through my stomach this time and that's to risky to do so it stays where it is , they also put a screw through the nerve in my leg, again which they can't take out as it would cause too much damage. So now I'm in constant agony, I can hardly walk even with crutches and have to use either a scooter or wheelchair, and I'm on 65 various tablets each day. So please if you can manage without don't opt for surgery, I've even had sixteen epidurals since the op and now they can't be given anymore as there's so much scar tissue built up there's nowhere else left to inject. I used to be a nurse before all this, now I just feel useless. So good luck with however you choose to go with treatment but just think hard first.

[Hidden in reply to Milosmum]

O wow Milosmum, I'm so sorry as I'm a retired nurse also and found that so many nurse end up with various back problems, picking folks up off floors pushing stretchers etc. but I got shocked by my patients implanted defibrillator device which retired me and I had back surgery which failed... they then wanted to do more and I refused and everything was fine I was down for about 2 years and I was fine for about 8 thn sciatica kicked back in last month with bursitis, trying to dance like the 40 yr olds Just had an MRI and I have a bulging disc with stenosis DDD you name it.. the sciatica is the worse I've ever had with the pins and needles L leg and both feet numb.. got a steroid shot in my hip and it helped soo much but still in pain if I bend or twist etc. No more surgery for me

[superannie in reply to thenunn]

Same was said to me about the op. It involves putting in metal plates and not worth having it done, blah blah. I am not interested in having an op so its not a problem but I agree that it is more down to the costs. My meds are only 30/500mg co drydamol 4x a day, and they are not giving much relief. I am very wary of going onto something stronger so am suffering a lot of pain. Just pace myself and put up with it, thank goodness I have no small children at home and do not work. How other people with very active lives put up with it I will never know.

[Brookfield12 in reply to superannie]

My meds are 2x50mg slow release tramdol in morning and evening 5x10mg amilitripline at night and still in pain. I had to leave my job because of my back which I shouldn't have to do as I am only 41 to young to retire lol.

[Kneesup in reply to Brookfield12]

Hi, Brookfield 12, I know exactley how you feel i also have pain and numbness in both legs and also into my feet my medication is, 1 Fentanyl patch 75mcg/hr, 1 Pregabalin 150 mg in the morning 2 pregabalin in the evening also tramadol when required, i also have a spinal cord stimulator. i think the patch would help you a lot, best wishes Knees-up

[superannie in reply to Brookfield12]

I know, it is so frustrating, I am 57 and cannot believe that I am in this position! Never saw this coming. How do you keep busy?

[Brookfield12 in reply to superannie]

Can't do alot if I have a good day then I do my housework but then suffer for days after its a vicious circle .

[thenunn in reply to superannie]

know what you mean i was medically retired in 2011aged 50 ..trying to do voluntary work but it looks like this may have to go too

[superannie in reply to thenunn]

I am starting to research my family history and attempt to make up a home made book, just for the family. It is an interesting project and keeps my mind of the pain, at the same time can only manage about half an hour at the computer before I " seize up " then I do some work on my knitted toys, also do a lot of reading. Its not getting out and socialising that is getting me down. Stay well. Ann

[thenunn]

i don't think you are alone..i think we all get that feeling about doctors. I just think the nhs has gone down hill so much

[tettridge]

Hi

In the Thirty-five years or so that I have had spine and neck pain I have gone from Paracetamol to Oramorph and am unsure if any of the painkillers do actually work but am to scared to not take them as it is so bad with them.

I have had two spinal decompressions and an op to mend a hole left after the last op. but it has changed slightly as now I am getting the pains I had before the ops. but also have pain from where the tissue has not mended onto the bone properly and find turning my neck is diminished quite a lot.

Sorry but all I can advise is that you hope for the best and plan for the worst.

Take care and kindest regards

Terry

[mich6666]

This might sound a bit stupid but after many months of my doctors and that empty look they give I decided to take matters in my own hands . I booked a holiday to Thailand after researching on the Internet where are the best spine clinics in the world. I had all my tests done my scans, x-rays and 2 spine top doctors I also see a neurosurgeon . When I return to Uk I went on my next hospital appointment armed with the goods. I was put straight on the spine fusion list and had just done my pre ops. I am 48 and healthy. I feel pain management is not a thought I want this whole episode to stop and hopefully go away. So I have to try and hope for the best result...., x tks

[Hidden]

I have exactly the same as you. You get neck pain because the lower spine and the neck communicate with each other.

I went down the alternative route, tried most things. All the compensation pain needs to be peeled away, like onion skins. (compensation pain is what you get when the body tries to protect something - twist your left ankle, you get pain in the right knee and hip because that leg is taking more weight while you hobble about). But if left untreated you can get compensation pain on top of compensation pain. A good alternative therapist will recognise this and work on reducing this before addressing the origin of the pain.

I found a sports physio the best in the end. They understand the pain mechanism and use a variety of treatments to reduce the pain. You may get a reaction pain the next day but this is normal and the spports physio will use this reaction as a guide for the next session.

I don't do pain killers as I prefer to read my pain and treat it in the various ways I've learnt from the alternative therapists.

Hope you find somnethibg that works

[asborne in reply to Hidden]

How right you are about compensation pain as this is causing me many problems . Mainly started as foot /ankle injury in January which eventually caused sciatica and became housebound. Now use 3wheel walker and have trouble with knees and back along with original injury. Was hopeing for solution but rekon Have to put up with condition and rely on Tramadol daily to dull mainly foot bone/nerve pain. Following MRI scan been advised Podiatry, but as foot will not go fully in the upward position...something is preventing it...unable to see how that will help. No one seems to uderstand about compensation effects. Really am fortunate as elderly but WAS very active so will need to move house whilst can manage. Pain doctor said spine injection but refused as it was foot mainly but spine is now involved. Pleased I found this site as is proving very helpful how the spine pain may be treated. Pain dr signed me off possibly due to me wanting foot sorted out. Now am glad I refused spine injection after what other have said. Keep strong, keep on seems the main thing.

[Hidden in reply to asborne]

Please consider a sports physio, they understand pain, its mechanisms and how to treat it. Compensation pain generally results from tight muscles. They use a mix of Bowen, massage, manipulation, heat, some might do accupuncture or accupressure and is usually pain free during the treatment. You might get a day or so of aches after but this is just your muscles relaxing again. A bit like the ache after running.

I didn't believe it could help. It freed up my spine - most of the tiny muscles between the vertebrae were in spasm. My buttocks were also too tight and I continue getting treatment on them. Theres 3 layers of muscle here and its the deepest muscle that gets treated with accupressure and massage.

Before treatment, I could only walk a short while, I couldn't hold my head up when sitting, I had aches and pains everywhere.

I was told that if I hadn't started treatment for the compensation pain, it would eventually lock my body up and paralysis would set in. It really is the body doing what its programmed to do, what it doesn't realise is that telling you that your ankle is injured would be enough, it just slowly piles more and more pain on until it can't anymore.

Even if the treatment takes away some of the pain, it may mean less strong pain killers, which surely would be a bonus.

[Hidden]

I am a bit puzzled as to why lumbar region spinal issues pain would be directly associated with neck problems.... presumably this is additional, and has it been assessed/diagnosed too?

Chiropractic treatment; or a MEDICAL Osteopath (rather rare beings!) perhaps worth looking for.... not NHS of course. I USED to get very good results from Chiropractic treatment, although as things became much more deteriorated, it doesn't achieve much now.

Someone mentioned NSAIDs (which I also take and certainly make a difference), but it is wise to discuss the risks associated with them (heart and kidney damage) ESPECIALLY Diclofenac (Voltarol) which is particularly associated with heart problems. All have some risk of side effects of gastritis (stomach) although of the many I have used, Meloxicam has been almost trouble free, although there is no guarantee of that for everyone - the alternative of taking PPI and similar acid-suppressing drugs is NOT something I would willingly accept unless as a last resort due to the long term effect these have nutritionally (they stop food digesting properly, so naturally you don't absorb minerals, and vitamins etc.)

There are certainly a lot more potent Opiate pain killers around, but other than for short term use, tolerance is an issue, although Tramadol itself is NOT easy to come off (Personal experience!).

Even a notionally trivial back procedure (Prolotherapy) made me significantly worse, so I must join in on the side of those who think of back surgery as an absolute last resort!

[Hidden]

Picton,

The neck and lumbar region work together and communicate with each other. If you leave a lumbar injury without treatment, you will get neck pain as the spine tries to stabalise itself by making us hurt at both ends so that we hopefully then take notice and rest. And vice versa of course.

[Brookfield12 in reply to Hidden]

I feel like banging my head against a brick wall I probably get more sense out of the wall lol. I am on medication and went to pain clinic and had a steroid injection in my spine to help with the pain but didn't help so my chronic pain nurse referred me back to the pain doctor and then I had a letter in post to say that I have been discharged from pain clinic. In other words the nhs has lost funding!!. So I am in limbo again and having more pain but u go back to your gp and they do nothing. Don't know what to do next.

[Hidden in reply to Brookfield12]

Try some alternative therapies, they will help relax you a d may reduce the pain. Sometimes you just have to do tjings yhoursrlf. If it works carry on, ask abput how you could do it yourserlf at home. If it doesn't help, try something else. There is a lot of trial and error to find the things that work for you. Get to know your body and how it reacts in situations, learn to read it and then you can prepare your activities within its limitations. I've not seen a GP about my pakn for about 5 yrs because I know they can't help me. I do see them for other things and just jog their memory by asking if there are any new treatments available.

You will feel empowered taking control yourself rather than expecting th NHS to help when they can't. Enjoy the freedom - you know what the worst senario is - more pain. So what you got to loose? Even walking 10-15 mins at a tjkme will help each day. Build up slowly.

I've had my pain 17 yrs and its never the first tjing I think of when I wake up or go to bed.

[sharelle]

Hi there, you have had some really good advice from people on here. I had my L4/5, L5/S1 fused plus other ops subsequently. Once you have surgery it may cause a knock on effect to other areas of the spine, pelvis and hips but it may not. Different drugs work on different areas: some for bone pain, some for muscle and some for nerve pain. Its worth trying to differentiate your different types of pain then taking the best medication for that pain. My problems started when I was 16 (am now 40) and my physio said if I had been to him first he would have given me physio concentrating on my core muscles and glute muscles and perhaps surgery could've been prevented. Therefore I would suggest seeing a physio who specialises in spines and trying pilates, which is focused on core stability. He told me it is something all sportsmen are now being urged to do as they may be the fittest person on the football pitch but if they get injured and they have poor core stability they may have problems recovering.

Hope this helps x

[tettridge]

Hi Again

I have tried all sorts over the years and one of the best that worked for a while was Acupuncture but after a while even that stopped working, I have had so many tests as Southampton is a University city and they love their Guinea pigs and for a long time I was one and with all the experimental stuff they tried none of it worked although I did have some bad experiences among them I am not sure I would like any more surgery now as it seems to be a temporary answer and it comes back with a vengeance.

One of the best things when I was able to (pre-Neck operations and pneumonia x3) was running, not jogging but full on running for a couple of hundred yards, walk a bit and then another burst, I used to do this and I must admit it was good getting the body moving, that would have been over thirty years ago.

These days I am unable to do a fast walk and that would leave me breathless and exhausted.

Take care, good luck and kindest regards

Terry

[ms-pupcat]

I have been in chronic pain for 13 years now I have tried everything mis- diagnosis was a big factor in my condition I was on tramadol and amytriplene before my surgery and unable to walk. According to what I have read the quicker the problem is diagnosed and dealt with the better the prognosis I ended up having an operation as I had a herniated disc and another disc shaved back it was four years and having to go private that led me to this and was only found when my back had been opened up but it had affected the discs further down as said earlier on there is a knock on effect. Degenerative disc disease. My Consultant who did that Op said that I would probably need fusion later on which he was right upon. After the first Op I did get some relief but as soon as I tried part-time work it soon deteriorated and I was back to square one as the lower discs were now pressing on the nerves there is also the effect of calcification where the body grows new bone on the vertabrae and this can affect where the nerves go down had this as well it grows at different rates thus you can get natural fusion! I was so bent over by the effects of my discs in terrible pain and on morphine I had fusion surgery three years ago and my posture is greatly improved but my pain is n't but this is more to do with some of the factors already mentioned and if I had not had the operation I would have little quality of life. I am on morphine but if I had met my surgeon when I had first had my accident I think the outcome would be different but I feel surgery was worth it as my movement is much free-er it is the nature of the injury you have. Don't feel a failure if you do wake up in pain and you can't get a grip on it I just accept it as part of life if I need to rest I do I stopped fighting for appearances sake. If pain management works for you then you are lucky but for some of us even pacing ourselves does not make much difference I felt a total failure. It does help to talk to other sufferers Chronic Pain is a condition in itself hope this helps someone xxx

[Hidden in reply to ms-pupcat]

Unfortunately there's no guarantees with surgery, and it needs very careful consideration before going down that route. For me, it would be the very last option left to me.

I think surgeons are more honest now, even they don't know how its going to affect you afterwards.

Life is full of choices, and we have to find a way of living with these choices if things don't work out as expected.

[mick3]

Hi, sorry to say I have had the operations and the last one to have L5 laminectomy has left me being a full time wheelchair user so it does happen so think carefully good luck Mick

[ms-pupcat]

I have no regrets about my surgery because being doubled over in my middle thirties was no joke I can walk with my head up now I just accept the pain for what it is and I am very thankful to my surgeon!

[Brookfield12 in reply to ms-pupcat]

I was bent over for about 6 months and the surgeon I saw won't give me the operation because apparently i am to young (41) and later on it would cause other problems. But to been honest I would love to be able to be out of pain if only for a little while. The funding for pain clinics in my area they don't have which is really frustrating. I can't afford to go private because due to my back I had to leave my job and I am a single parent on benefits which I really hate and want to get back to work if I can.

[iggy88 in reply to Brookfield12]

Hi, I just had my surgery on August 8th. Wow, immediately upon waking up the back and leg pain was GONE! I also suffer from degenerative disc disease and had a herniated disc and a protruded disc. The surgeon was great and knew the minute I walked in his office I had enough pain in my back and I had made up my mind to go for the surgery. I just wanted to know if he would do it. I'm in my 60's though and don't know about the problems it would cause with a younger person. Bob is probably close to right on but I agree with him, as I'm not a doctor either, check with your GP and be completely up front with him/her about your concerns right from the get go. Good luck!

Linda

[Hidden]

Hello Bob here

When you have operations to fuse the spine, if you are to young you really can have problems the fused spine can become brittle and the area that has been operated on can become unstable. This as can be seen in some patients after a few years, or months will cause even more problems in later life life, as the spine as we get older becomes less flexible, this in turn will make other joints around the spine and hips out of alignment and this in turn just makes matters worse. Even trapped nerves begin to cause further nuro conditions and puts the body out of balance.

If you are too young, say in forties, fifties, the number of times you can have an operation like this is not infinite the problem is the chance of the operation lasting throughout old age can be suspect as anyone who has had the operation will tell you according to patients in the Pain Clinics

If the procedure is left say into your sixties the cost of procedure needing to be done again can become hypothetical.

and will last till you turn up your toes.

All I can advise personally is discuss with GP he will have all the answers for you. I am not a doctor

All the best

BOB

[joe69]

Hey Brookfield12...

Now, it will take me too long to give you my symptoms.....

You are more than welcome to look at my page, am in a similar vote to you, with L4/5 degenerative discs, on whoch do cause me the same problems as you...

Today, I was at my gp again about these dam spasms/tremors, on which they have now come to the end of the road with them, not much more we can do from here...

Take care

Joe

[mlsm]

Hi I have my surgery on the 10th of February for myself On th l5 l4 disk unfortunately the facet injections did nothing and all the pain medication did was make me sleep.my right leg from the knee down felt like it was broken and my body was hyper sensitive to cold so I was constantly in pain. when I woke up my leg pain was gone as if it never existed I have six weeks of recovery to look forward to but I am already walking much better I only have a little back pain to deal with and overall thank goodness for the surgeon I found. unfortunately if the shots are not working and your disk and it is completely herniated with absolutely no moisture left in it surgery is your choice but I highly recommend good luck with your pain and I hope you recover soon.

[Kerryjess]

Hi Brookfield. You have received a lot of advice, both positive and negative regarding surgery. I agree that it should be regarded as a last resort. I have been a chronic pain sufferer for over 30 years, mostly in my lumbar region. I was repeatedly told that an operation was out of the question and I tried all the usual avenues to get relief, both medication and physical therapies. I ended up 18 months ago having decompression surgery with 3discs fused, rods and plates inserted. The surgeon said that on top of the degenerative disc disease I had spondylolisthesis where there is slippage in the spine. He was upfront with me and said it would not take away all the pain in my back but would help my posture and relieve the sciatica in my leg once the nerves were not compromised.

He was right! I have no leg pain, but am very stiff in the lumbar region which is predictable when 3discs are fused. I still need medication and get injections into the trigger points in my lumbar area. My problem is complicated by the fact of having fibromyalgia and osteoarthritis in my knees. I still need a walking stick and use a rollator when outside because of balance issues and problems with my feet.

My advice is to think carefully. Do your own research and then only you can make up your mind whether or not to proceed with surgery. If you do, again ask for personal recommendations from people in your area, go to any appointments armed with loads of questions and do not be scared to ask them. A good surgeon will appreciate the fact that you are taking responsibility for your health and are concerned about a good outcome. If the surgeon is dismissive of your concerns, DO NOT trust yourself to him!

Pain management has to become a fact of life when you suffer from chronic pain. Only those who are in your shoes will truly understand how low you get. Most people, even those in your family and circle of friends will get fed up if you talk about it too much, unfortunately. At least we have forums like this where we can find people who relate to how you are struggling and can give advice as to possible solutions or other means to try.

If you choose to cope with medications, there are possible combinations you could add to what you are already taking, though bear in mind that all will have side effects, whether sleepiness/fuzziness of thought or tummy upsets. ( I take 100mg slow release tramadol x2per day as a maintenance dose but it's increased to 300/400 mg per day if I'm in a flare up. I take Duloxetine and Amytryptiline and Diclofenac as well. The dr at the pain clinic regulates my meds and occasionally I'm put on pain patches if necessary.

Sorry for the long reply. I hope some of this will have been helpful to you. Just remember there are plenty of us who share what you are going through and really "get it"!