how do you read this help please !: This is part of an... - NRAS


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how do you read this help please !

philvaughan profile image

This is part of an ot report to the council does it say I do or do not require over night care. Accommodation to have the potential to facilitate a carer to stay over night if necessary as clients needs can fluctuate potential of separate lounge to accommodate additional sleeping facilities such as a sofa bed. please as many replies would help my cause ty

39 Replies

Can't see a report?

philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to

this is what they wrote report is to have overnight care I require 2 bedrooms would this say I do or don't need care

Well the above says accomodation must be able to put up a carer. This is due to your changing needs. It also says a separate lounge could be used as spare space for carer.

That's how I read it.

philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to

ty please read my new post

My understanding of this that you sometimes need overnight care, but that you don’t need a second bedroom: a separate lounge (eg separate from bedroom or kitchen) with a sofa bed would be adequate for an occasional overnight carer. Hope that helps.

ty read my new [ost

I would read it as 'a sofa bed is needed in the lounge to put up an occasional carer at night'

philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to oldtimer

ty read my new post

If the information written in your post is working the report ( you’ve just summarised it for post) then it would seem to be suggesting that your accommodation should have the potential to have a cater stay overnight , depending on your needs.

Are you seeking alternative accommodation also?


philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to Eiram50

ty see my new post

ive had care from my wife for about 7 years we split in august and I became homeless and made a new claim for esa they replaced my carers allowance with severe disability premium I was given temp acc in a two bedroom flat but was refused care after 1900 rules of temp acc unless I get carers allowance or a letter from my gp stating I require overnight care which he refused to do and said that was down to social services after 5 months of arguing I finally get this report If I have an over night carer I must by law supply a separate bedroom the council suggest I don't need overnight care but all of my medical evidence suggests otherwise as do dwp reports and the fact that I get pip at highest rate for both mobility and daily living I get severe disability premium with my esa I have a blue badge and it gos on now the council want the report re written because it contradicts itself I feel it suggest I require care over night but it says 1 bedroom in law it must be 2 if I get overnight care and I have taken legal advice from c a b and turn to us the official website all suggesting im correct

philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to Eiram50


many thanks people I didn't want to influence any one bye putting too much. im in a temp accommodation have been refused care for the past 5 months the council are looking to re house me if I require overnight care the council must give me a 2 bedroomed property if not I only need 1 this is what the social services o t report says are my needs the think this is wrong and want it re written because it go's on to say I only need I room I have sero positive ra ra/ild copd carpel tunnel amongst many others I get highest rate of pip on both count severe disability premium blue badge medical reports but still not enough thank you all and lets hope I can many more replies

I'm sorry but this is a written extract as a recommendation which has the 'potential' which may be occassionally needed by OT it is a suggestion not a requirement. It is folly to think its an instruction to a local authority housing division. It is saying 1 bedroom plus a sofa surfing type of thing I do not read it as requirement for 2 bedrooms , one of which might be used occassionally. So much else involved as well. Please do not think your able to use nothing more than a suggestion to get anything and in any event a local authority usually will do its own assesment of needs. Be careful. I believe your on a sticky wicket and need proper advice and this is just part of a bigger picture. Homelessness is awful and I do sypmathise but please, please get qualified professional advice.

I think these days you would only be considered to need a second bedroom if you have a permanent carer 24/7. And this text is not saying that is what you need as it points out your needs fluctuate.

How are you care needs met at the moment? As if you have rotating carers that come both day and night that might help your case.

im not currently allowed any care until the make up there mind I have contacted several care agencies and if they supply an over night carer I must supply separate bedroom but im stuck in limbo im currently having lots of flare up with my ra and may well lose my legs in a few months and want to take aholiday abroad while I still can but have been refused saying if I can stay out I don't need my accommodation

I read it as they say you "Might sometimes need a carer to stay overnight

so a living room with enough room for a sofa bed should be considered when offering you accommodation", but most of the time it is safe for you to overnight you only need one bedroom.

Presumably your medical team have given the council the information regarding your overnight care needs?

Why don't you take the letter to the Citizens's Advice Bureau....there might be more relavent information in the rest of the letter, that qualifies what you have written....& they have people there who can point you in the right direction,

cab agree with me

Am I right in thinking you think you should be allocated a 2 bedroom property when the second bedroom might only be used for a carer on an irregular basis.......I don't think that is very likely do you?

Or are you saying you want a spare room for family......if that is the case it would come in a different category of housing.

If someone needs care 24/7, with today's housing shortage they would not normally be allocated a single dwelling, but be house in sheltered one bedroom care/warden assisted accommodation.

If as you say the CAB agree with you, you will have to discuss it with whoever is in charge of allocating properties in your area, so that it can be sorted out, but as crash doll days, there is a huge housing shortage,& it seems it would be better for you to take a one bedroom property, if it was least then you would have a permanent address, & you could maybe get some better health care, with a new GP to over see your general health.

I do think your best move would be to get all your medical information together as quickly as possible, & make an appointment with the person who has the authority to make the final decision on your housing allocation. That way you will know where you stand & can plan accordingly.

you bring up some really relevant points ss agree I need care report of 27 12 18 but not allowed after 1900 house rules they want to move me but cant decide how ill I am and what I need for example they offered me a zimmer frame to help with my balance great I said if I could grip it a wheelchair great if my hans allowed me to use it and so on so in report it say I don't require any aides or adaptions but does suggest a wet room lol so I don't get any care and am too proud to accept it so whilst waiting to be rehouse I start having lots of falls particularly at night when going to the toilet casing injuries which have been noted by the hospital and reported in a letter which the council have a copy my adult son is prepared to help me when I need it he has his own home and wouldn't live with me only staying when I needed it most if that dosent work I would have to forget my pride and accept more help in law I must supply a 2nd bedroom to anybody that dose not live with but stay overnight ad hoc and this is the problem if they accept that I require over night care the must give me 2 bedrooms now they want the report re written because they say it is clear enough my survey says there wrong thank you so much people I really wish I could show you all it unreal thankyou everybody you all have a multitude of problems yourself

I am an adult social worker and my understanding is that councils will only allocate a 2 bedroom property if the person needs 24-7 care and not just occasional. That said, I have only worked for 2 local authorities. There is very limited housing stock and they have to prioritise. I am not claiming it would never happen but it is very unlikely and I think you need to be prepared for this. Also, would it not be better to he in a one bedroom permanent property than temporary accommodation? I don’t think their report is wrong or incorrect, they cannot say you need a 2 bedroom property when they do not assess you as requiring overnight care every night. I understand it doesn’t feel that way to you right now.

ok im in tempory acc as a guest not tenant there are understandable rules no visitors after 1900 no even carers without written consent but I need care social services agreed I needed care and was arranging for me to have a card to arrange my own care but was still not allowed after 1900 in the last 5 months of being here I have had several falls in the night when going to the toilet cracking ribs and damaging my eye all in reports I wish I knew how to show you all the letter from the hospital it it very alarming to read ' this is some of it my medical history from the letter I have much more but I feel this is enough.

This gentleman's past medical history includes terminal lung disease COPD emphysema and pulmonary fibrosis and recent pneumonia history of pr bleed ra with organ involvement peripheral vascular disease he can only walk 20 -50 yards before his sats dop to a dangerous level 88 he also suffers from an underactive thyroid having problems with his balance having had a fall last night it goes on to the arteries in my legs are blocked and I have a brachial pressure of 0.4 in my right leg and 0.6 in my left extremely bad to say the least I have been having bad flare ups which have left me struggling to get out of bed to use the toilet during the night so I phone social services for advice on what I should do next time im stuck if im not allowed a carer the told me to phone 999 I said really to help me to go to the toilet if not then buy yourself some pads for the bed I was disgusted because I am not incontinent and don't wish to lie in my own urine which is why ineed a carer and therfor a second bedroom

in reply to philvaughan

Im sorry if I’m missing something here but could you not accept the 1 bedroom accommodation so you could get out of temporary accommodation and be able to have carers later at night? Your son could then sleep on a sofa bed if needs be ,. Then you would be able to see and have evidence of whether that was enough help. It took me a long time and alot of stress and going out in the middle of the night to get 24/7 carer’s for my fil and he used a bottle at night until we did.

I hope you get sorted soon.

philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to

not in law no and it get more complicated because its likely im about to lose my my legs so they are talking about adaptions and surveys I don't have that time I just need out now so I have no resrtritions

in reply to philvaughan

Philvaughan I often stayed at my father in laws over night when he really needed it, to save me having to go out from my house to assist him. This was on a sofa bed. I think the law you are referring to is for non family member carers needing a room.

You won’t be given a 2 bed property based on something that might not happen. They are assessing you for now and what they are saying is you do not need 24 hr care now.

Most people on here are not agreeing with you as you have said.

I would take what they are offering and go from there. At least it a start.

philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to

I have still not been offered any thing they are accessing me still until then I have not been allowed any care full stop after 1900 to allow me care after 1900 either from a family or care agency I much prove I need overnight care on occasions and this is the result now they want it re written I don't have the time for all of this I have terminal lung disease and have past my sell by date they are suggesting a bungalow with lots of adaptions because I may lose my legs soon a long wait I'm having major flare ups and been getting stuck in bed at night my son is willing to come and assist but is not allowed catch 22 I don't want full time care nor do I want anybody to live with me but due to flare ups and increasing depression I do need help and I've not been allowed it im able to walk25/30 yards before my sats drop to a very low level but I walk about 200 yrds before I have to stop through pain I can drive I manage most of my needs myself but not safely I drop kettle saucepans cant cut up my food most of the time so I eat at my sons 3 nights a week I get by I want to remain as independent as I can with the little time I have left I'm not allowed to stop out overnight I wanted to book a holiday over xmas rather than be alone but was refused because of the rules here

in reply to philvaughan

Are you in a care home or sheltered accommodation at present philvaughan? It does seem very odd that there are rules that no one can come in to help you after 7pm and you aren’t allowed to go on holiday.

Hopefully they will finish assessing you soon and you can move in.

philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to

an x office building turned into flats but we are guests we can be removed within 2 hours if we break rules I came here in Aug. after a rough break up with my wife was having suicidal thoughts and asked for my son to be able to stay overnight which was refused I was constantly refused up until I refused to leave the council office afew weeks ago when I got a letter saying I was now allowed overnight care after they spoke to social services 29 12 18 subject to I T report this was it report and it gets worse they seem to accept I need over night care on occasions but now they are looking at adapting a place for me due to possibly loosing legs this all takes time all I originally asked for was support from my son when I was low and feeling alone I cant bear the restrictions here and all that go's on ive had people being sick up my window taking herion I had to stop a young lady from self harming and help another man having a fit I understand the need for rules im at the end of my life at 59 and feel so restricted something as simple as asking for somebody to support me, thank you for you continued support phil

in reply to philvaughan

Gosh Phil that sounds a really awful place for you to be put. No wonder you want out quickly. You shouldn’t be expected to deal with all that when you are so ill yourself. Are there no staff there keeping an eye on everyone? I really hope they can move you somewhere more suitable soon. Best of luck and keep talking to us if you need support.

philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to

many thanks im so frustrated because I do manage by myself most of the time I cant cook but eat at my sons 3 nights a week I buy sandwiches and snacks and the odd take away on the days I cant I ask my son to help I realise I will need more soon but in the meantime I want my independence but more importantly my pride I feel that's all I have left

my conditions that I can prove through medical letters from my gp Maidstone hospital pembury hospital the royal Brompton from professor wells east grinsted etc etc

ra/ild terminal ra sero positive COPD EMPHYSEMA pulmonary fibrosis hypo thyroidism

carpel tunnel syndrome aortoiliacdisease thrombus in aorta pr bleeding club fingers and toes through lack of oxygen my pip and esa status suggest how ill I am ra in 2010 mtx gave me lung disease terminal 2011 sulphasine and steroids pr bleed 2013 leflunomide gave me anorexia 16.9 down to 9 st other drugs all with some side effects 2015 rtx infusions without mtx fantastic for my ra but not lungs ,jan2016 referred to Brompton for I off prognosis ended up being 5 over a year tho have no clear cut conclusion final diagnosis ra/ild probable other in other words ipf ? I have now refused treatment other than steroids who can blame me I've outlived there estimate so as I say I've past my sell by date and am still proud I still smoke weed and try to be positive how I don't know I suffer with me head all the time I don't see any future and I feel people judge me on what the see an independent old fart that walks ok and make you a cup of tea when you come doesn't matter that I might drop kettle and burn myself that's ok the same when I walk 25 yards and my sats drop to below 88 in report from Brompton but I'm ok I'm at breaking point and have had some valuable support just by agree with me whether I get it or not I now I not wrong most of you so far agree so thank you all

Have you ever thought of going in to a residential facility .....where all your needs could be met?

How could you actually manage to look after yourself living independently? I don't think these days councils provide 24 hr carers for people in your position.

However could you cook for yourself if you can't safely walk to the toilet on your own? And what about bathing & keeping a flat clean?

I know very well as we grow older we want to keep our independence, but If I were you I'd have a long talk with your son, & see if he can talk to the right people & arrange something suitable...where you can be looked after,your food cooked for you & you would have company & help 24/7.

I'm sorry, but really think you are only building up to a big disappointment, if you continue to ask for a 2 bedroom property.

It does rather seem that by refusing a 1 bedroom property after 5 months in temporary accommodation, you are kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face. It seems clear from everything I have read here that the social work OT currently doesn’t think you need 24/7 care, therefore the council will not give you 2 bedrooms. Also, they can only base your housing needs on your current circumstances, not on how your health or mobility may deteriorate in future.

Nor will they take account of the benefits that you are on, because that does not explicitly tell them you need overnight care.

My advice would be to take a 1 bed property and get yourself out of the stressful situation of being in temporary accommodation, and where you can at least get care after 7pm, even if it’s not overnight.

If your situation does deteriorate, and you do start to need overnight care, then you can always ask for a transfer to a 2 bed property.

In the meantime, there are ways to overcome the issue with getting up to the toilet in the night - as mentioned in another post, you could use bottles, or ask Social Work to provide a commode - I’m surprised they didn’t offer that.

One last thing - if you haven’t already tried the homeless charity, Shelter, they might be able to help.

I’m afraid I think you’re pushing against something that is only going to lead you to be disappointed.

I was adopted, but know my biological mother. She had sepsis and has had a leg amputated. She’s in a wheelchair an unable to transfer on her own. She has carers four times daily, but never overnight. At night, she has to wear pads unfortunately for continence and then the morning Carer helps her. I don’t imagine you will have 24/7 care so long as you are partially mobile.

I realise this is a horrid position to be in, but I do think you have two options which are the one bed flat, or assisted housing. The latter may suit you better and also you would have some company.

not been given a choice still accessing me its been 5 months and have been refused care after 1900 due to rules in building no visitor no cares full stop after 1900

Hi, it does not say you need two bedrooms. It says sometimes you need overnight care and sometimes you don't and that your carer can sleep on a sofa bed in the lounge.

Best wishes,


philvaughan profile image
philvaughan in reply to pino99


Looks like it's up to you whether you need overnight care or not. Also up to you to provide the facilities so you can accommodate the care person when you need them.

ty my thoughts exactly

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