Cat's claw

[sharon6768]

Just read an article on herbal supplement, cat's claw (uncaria tomentosa) for RA inflammation and the immune system. Wondering if any of you have tried and if it helped at all. Thanks.

[Hidden]

Don't know Sharon as haven't heard of it but anything herbal I would check with rheumatology nurse first as some things don't mix with drugs we take. Take care x

[sharon6768 in reply to Hidden]

Thanks, Kerena. Good idea as I usually think that if it's herbal, it must be okay.

[Hidden in reply to sharon6768]

Yeah me too until specialist nurse went on about st johns wort and something else i can't remember? Who knew eh? X

[Marziano in reply to Hidden]

yes St johns wort is one to watch for a number of medications, not just for RA

[Needforname]

I bought a bunch of this stuff last year. It was incredibly bitter and awful tasting if I remember correctly. Kratom was the only herb that did anything for pain for me. It's a plant from the coffee family which mimics the sensation of opiates, yet is thought to be much safer. Workers in the east have been taking it for centuries to alleviate pain and anxiety.

While it worked surprisingly great for me for a long while, I eventually had to stop taking it due to the stomach ache it was causing. I purchased nearly a thousand dollars worth when the DEA had put a deadline on it's legality a year or so ago. After I made the purchase, the DEA changed their minds on the ban due to overwhelming pressure from the kratom community. I ended up with kilos of this stuff that is still in my refrigerator.

I know this is a bit off topic, but maybe kratom is something you can look into if you're considering herbs for relief. Just do extensive research before trying anything, especially with the meds we are on. Let us know if the cat's claw works for you. Thanks.

[Thegreaterdanes in reply to Needforname]

I just bought a starter sample package of Kratom and it really does help with pain! I found that the yellow and white strains dont help, but the red or mixing red and green have helped. I will definitely be ordering more!

In addition, I make golden paste with several herbs to reduce inflammation. It has helped my dog with Lyme Arthritis tremendously. One day I would love to be able to stop the methotrexate injections.

[Needforname in reply to Thegreaterdanes]

Glad it works for you. It was hugely helpful for me as well, but the stomach discomfort was too much. I've had stomach issues for years though. The reason it seems to bother people's gut is because it's a very hydrophobic substance that has a tendency to stick to the lining of the stomach and intestines I imagine. Making a tea and disposing of the material matter (contained in tea bag) helped alleviate some of the discomfort, but not enough. And the tea route didn't produce a strong enough effect.

That's great to hear the turmeric paste worked for you and your dog. I don't dare feed it to my cat. Actually, I cant find a way to even get him to feed it regardless. I've tried the turmeric paste for a month or so and it didn't help me. Nothing helps me, including the MTX and Symponi Aria infusions I'm currently on. Now on drug #5 with no success. Not sure what to do. Doctors are clueless.

[helixhelix]

Isn't it supposed to boost the immune system? If so then maybe similar to echinacea and St John's Wort which we are advised against by conventional medicine. Basically our immune systems are over active, so the last thing we want to do is stimulate them further. Anyway, always check with your own medical team.

Here's link to an article I posted a mo th ago

healthunlocked.com/nras/pos...

[wishbone in reply to helixhelix]

Interesting you should say that, hh. If someone with RA is not taking immune suppressants, thus have an over active immune system compared to a healthy person. Could it be that the RA person's immune system is more capable of fending off infections than the healthy person's immune system is? I've had to stop taking immune suppressants because of recurring infections. Haven't had a single one since stopping them over 18 months ago. Would probably have had at least 3 during that time when I was taking meds. Seems pretty obvious that the significant drop in the number of infections I now get is due to not having a suppressed immune system caused by the meds I used to take, but I wonder if it's also related to my immune system becoming RA over active again thus making it more efficient at fighting infections than even that of a healthy person? Sort of makes sense to me that it does...then again?........

[Hidden in reply to wishbone]

That's really interesting as i had v good immune system i thought, worked in school, never went down with anything until this b----r last year. If not immuno suppressants, how do you control yours?

[wishbone in reply to Hidden]

I can take hydroxychloroquine, which is a DMARD, but one that has little effect on the immune system..apparently. It does help, but my RA is not well controlled and life can be difficult on times. I'm also concerned that my not well controlled RA could be further damaging my heart and lungs. I'm seeing my rheumy soon and will ask her if it's wise for me to start a low dose DMARD.

Regarding my above post...I'm probably talking a load of codswallop suggesting that someone with RA who can't take immune suppressing meds, may have an immune system that is more efficient, or better at fighting infections than someone with a normal healthy immune system, and it's just a case that an RA compromised immune system is no better or worse at fighting infections than a healthy one, and is simply attacking healthy joints, organs, etc that it shouldn't attack. Obviously there's nothing new about that!

[Hidden in reply to wishbone]

Thanks wishbone, get fed up with all the drugs & side effects myself, just wondered. I don't thinks it's codswallop, i did find post on poor cancer patients interesting but sad (immunotherapy to boost system makes them more likely to contract auto immune diseases like this, Observer). Sometimes it feels like we re all a bunch of drugs guinea pigs to me when they can get excited about an awful side effect like that 😔 I do realise luckier than people who had it years ago; just a little depressing at times. Good luck on whatever you try next, thanks for reply x

[wishbone in reply to Hidden]

Hi Kerena,

It's well known fact that taking immune suppressant meds does make us more prone to getting infections. What I was asking was, is someone, such as myself, who hasn't been able to take immune suppressants because of complications, and has an over active immune system due to RA, is better at fighting infections than a healthy person with a normal uncompromised immune system?

Well, I've just got back home after seeing my rheumy who answered that question by saying that a healthy persons immune system is more capable at fighting infections than someone with an auto immune disease such as RA, whether that person takes immune suppressing medication or not...I had a sneaky feeling that I might be way off the mark suggesting it. Anyway, we've decided that I should start back on a low dose of azathioprime. Not only could this reduce the risk of further damage to my heart and lungs from inflammation, which is my main worry, but my rheumy seemed more concerned about how my joints are deteriorating, especially my hands, the right already being next to useless. Just waiting for immunology to get back to us in case there's an issue with my blood. That said, I've been waiting 6 months already. My rheumy was surprised about that and said she'd be chasing them up.

Problem for me is that I'm caught between a rock and a hard place in that I have a much greater chance of getting a serious infection if I start taking medication, and risk serious damage to my heart and/or lungs, which already have issues, if I don't! As mentioned, my rheumy and I have decided to take the former route. Just hope it's the way to go!........................

Hope you do what's best for you.

[Hidden in reply to wishbone]

Hope so too, what a nightmare for you. This whole disease is rock n hard place i think, constant juggling between side effects of drugs and impact of disease 😒 hope azathioprine works for you.

[wishbone in reply to Hidden]

Hope so to. Thanks Kerena.

If it doesn't work then my rheumy wants me to try a new med called baricitinib (don't ask me how to pronounce that one!) which she would have preferred to start me on as I don't think she is very confident that azathioprine will work for me. Baricitinib is a biologic, so it probably has more of a dampening effect on the immune system than a DMARD like azathioprine and that's something I want to avoid if possible due to the risk of getting an infection. Anyway, I will have to wait and see how things pan out.

Good luck and take care

[Hidden]

Hi

I've started drinking Turmeric tea by Pukka. Acquired taste not for early morning. Claims are good for inflammation in the body. You can make turmeric lemonade too for warmer days. Search on YouTube for ideas as the herbal tablets can have contract - actions. Good luck 😉

[cgregg718 in reply to Hidden]

I make a Golden milk from turmeric paste and love it. It helps me settle down for bed, it’s a warm spicy drink and my RA seems to be doing better. Less stiffness.

[AgedCrone]

Don't touch anything "herbal" until you check with rheumy/pharmacist that it won't react badly with anything you have been prescribed.

Herbal does not mean safe!

[Ruth12345]

Good reading thanks everyone. Hh I clicked on your Gardian article, very interesting, thank you. I noticed that you had put that on here not very long ago. I dont seem to get all the thjngs put on here just a selection, strange. I have ticked all options on bottom of my page. Hay ho.

[Bandido]

I'd like to think that is nickname for something else and absolutely nothing to do with cats

[nymima01 in reply to Bandido]

Lol! Too funny this morning.

[sharon6768 in reply to Bandido]

Apparently it is a bark with thorns that look like a cat's claw.

[Bandido in reply to sharon6768]

That's good news.

[nomoreheels]

As general advice it's always best you check with your Rheumy before considering trying any herbal supplements alongside our traditional meds, the two don't always mix & 'natural' doesn't necessarily mean safe or ok to be taken with our meds.

It's been suggested it may help inflammation in some but there's no evidence it goes any way to helping stop joint damage from getting worse, & that's the main aim isn't it. If you have any liver or kidney problems there's the warning it shouldn't be used. With this in mind, our meds are metabolised either through the liver or kidneys so will cat's claw cause issues there?

I can only find one study (preliminary) with RD patients & that goes back to 2002. That rings alarms bells, if it's safe or helpful wouldn't there have been further trials? Anyway, it was a 52 week double blind trial & the 40 enrolled patients were on either hydroxychloroquine or sulfasalazine. Modest results were found, Arthritis Research UK say lab studies have also found that cat’s claw can stimulate the production of certain hormones called cytokines. We don't want this, they promote inflammation so taking cat's claw with our meds can diminish their usefulness.

I'm sure your Rheumy can explain all about cytokines in RD & the affect cat's claw would have so better to ask him.

One more thing, there's a warning it can also lower BP so those on hypertensive meds (for high BP) shouldn't take cat's claw, also if on anticoagulants (blood thinners) it can increase the risk of bleeding, or diuretics (water tablets) because it does the same job so there's the risk of electrolyte imbalance.

[Hidden in reply to nomoreheels]

Hi Nomoreheels - I would just add to keep in mind that big Pharma doesn't want to do clinical trials on substances they cannot patent. It would just be a waste of money as far as they are concerned, unless they can extract and patent the primary constituent, like aspirin from willow.

[nomoreheels in reply to Hidden]

Don't you think at least a few more trials would have been done since 2002 though Caeryl, even if it was for non-arthritis use? Maybe it's generally considered the money is better used in developing & trialling meds than what may be thought as taking a step backwards, I don't know. That said, as you mention aspirin is derived from willow extract, many others have their origins from nature too so why has cat's claw not been so used, not sure. I'm not a big believer in calling Big Pharma, I'm thankful we have the meds to help us live a near normal life. Doubtless natural alternatives have their use, in those who have troubles with meds, susceptible to side effects particularly (I live with one of those so appreciate it can be difficult) & who aren't taking or choose not to take meds. I've used them myself, arnica being one. I think caution must be taken when used in combination with meds is all & always best to ask our Rheumy's advice just to be doubly sure we're not at risk of a trip to A&E.

Hope you're ok?

[Hidden in reply to nomoreheels]

Hi NMH - I totally agree that interaction checking is critical. I love herbal solutions, and know honestly it is hard to control the actual "dosage". However, they are usually so mild and take so much to be dangerous that most people would never get there. Also there are many constituents in herbs, and those tend to balance each other, where focusing on just one can cause unexpected issues.

I follow the formulas and teachings of Dr. John Raymond Christopher, and there is a story in the school about how the FDA decided that the herb Comfrey (Symphytum officinale) is too dangerous to include in products taken internally because of the pyrrolizidine alkaloids it contains and how dangerous it is for the liver. So, they made him rework all of this formulas excluding comfrey. However, reading the results of why the decision was made (Herballegacy.com/Thesiscontraindications) shows:

“Thus in the case of Comfrey tea if it be assumed that normal methods of infusion could extract just over half the alkaloid that was extracted by 8 hours in a Soxhlet apparatus in the laboratory, each cup of tea could contain 100 micrograms of alkaloid. At this level the consumer could never attain the lethal dose of 300 milligrams/Kg tissue found necessary to produce the acute reaction in rats. Even to consume this quantity it would take a 150 lb. man drinking 4 cups of tea per day a total of 140 years. Furthermore it is known that to produce chronic reactions, sub-lethal doses over a prolonged period are necessary.”

I use Comfrey in a lot of my herbal formulas, and my liver results are excellent. As for Bid Pharma, I'm not sure that they have any motivation to do more trials, for any use, unless they can separate out a specific constituent that they can patent. That being said, there might be something in the future, but of course, the end result would be a synthesized medication.

Just all theories huh?

I am doing pretty well, Thank you for asking. How are you doing?

[nomoreheels in reply to Hidden]

I'm not sure you can generalise can you, say that all are usually mild, but that's not really my concern, it's taking them with meds, resulting in situations such as given here uk.businessinsider.com/supp...

I think I'm probably also wary because of a bad reaction my h had to valerian. He was very busy at work & having trouble sleeping so bought a herbal mix sold to aid sleep. It contained valerian which unbeknownst to us it had settled to the bottom of the container & of course he just put it in the tea infuser as usual. He was so nervous, really everything he's not normally, quite angry too, enough to be really bothered by. He wasn't on any meds at the time, it was before things started going awry, but won't risk anything with his heart do & his meds anymore.

That's good you're doing well, long may it last. I'm doing better now thanks for asking. Thankfully RD is behaving itself, quite how I've avoided a flare I'm unsure but grateful for it otherwise I'd have be in a right old mess!

[Hidden in reply to nomoreheels]

I think maybe I am just lucky. I have not had any issues with any herbs. I'm sorry your husband did. And I DO know enough to check drug interactions before I start a new herb, or when I get put on a new drug... Maybe not everyone checks, huh? Have a great weekend!

[Hidden in reply to nomoreheels]

Just read Bad Pharma article Ben Goldacre, on how only positive testing results, not negative, get through to health care professionals: all a bit 'occam's broom'. It's made me question everything tho' why science should be any different to any other field of human endeavour and a bit flawed, i don't know. Anyway, interesting read nmh, especially on tgn1412 trial that went wrong x

[nomoreheels in reply to Hidden]

Thanks Kerena, I'll have to seek that out.

[Hidden in reply to nomoreheels]

Didn't mean to be critical; rheumatologists just doing best with what they ve got otherwise we d all be cured, if only. It did surprise me when rheumy at patient conference said they just get to pick trials from ones pharma offer; call me naive I'd always imagined all these independent researchers beavering away on our behalf, lol x

[nomoreheels in reply to Hidden]

No, of course, Rheumy's can only do their best with what's available to them, or we hope they do! As I understand it it's 'researchers' who develop trials, who I guess must be from the pharmaceutical companies given they're the ones developing the meds needing to go to trial to prove effectiveness & safety. My h's GP has my h signed up with an agency who collate or match patients to trials for specific conditions & meds, in my h's case diabetic meds, phase 3 trials only. As far as funding goes I would think on the whole pharmaceutical company's are the top of the leaderboard so to speak as they are needing to trial meds they've developed but they are also funded by charities (ARUK being one relative to us) & the Government (health-related research through the MRC & NHIR). Maybe it was that the Rheumy had only been offered trials by pharmaceutical companies do you think, would make sense as they have the major interest?

[Hidden in reply to nomoreheels]

I would imagine so nmh, it must be only pharma companies & some academic establishments i guess, i was just surprised that they approached hospitals and hospital chose ones they thought most viable, rather than other way round e.g. All pharma-led. Good luck to your h, hope he finds a good one. Diabetes not a nice disease either.

[helixhelix in reply to Hidden]

It's worth reading the whole book (Bad Pharma) by him, and another of his called Bad Science. It's interesting stuff that I find more believable than conspiracy theories.

[nymima01 in reply to nomoreheels]

Very informative. TY

[nomoreheels in reply to nymima01]

You're welcome. It's just we need to be aware they don't always mix well together & to seek advice before taking natural products if we're on meds, that's the main thing, that & natural doesn't always mean safe for us.

[Hidden]

Cat's claw comes in a set of vitamins I found and take every day. Once I started them, they helped quite a bit.. I haven't had any interactions but I don't take the usual medications

[Nettac]

Before I was diagnosed (and knew something was going on) I tried cats claw. Made zero difference. Interestingly I also tried ginseng. Not sure if this caused it of course, but I ended up in hospital with massive bruising up my legs. Emergency doc at the time said he thought I had an autoimmune disease and should stop taking ginseng?

Do be careful with herbal stuff, particularly if taking conventional meds as well.