For those interested in the Gut Microbiome--NYT research article

[Lucy11]

There's no disputing that gut microbiome is starting to take a front row seat in research.

Have we 'undiversified' our microbiome by eating the same all year round and with years of industrialized sugar and processed food consumption?

I know that while I always thought I ate very well, I cannot deny that I often eat the same types of food year round. Now, I'm trying to find a way to diversify my foods more but get stuck with so many recommendations of taking out certain groups of food like gluten, dairy, meat, oils....

Is a seasonal, mostly fibrous eating cycle the answer to a more healthy gut and therefore healthy body? Or do you believe this road leads nowhere in conjunction with auto immune disease?

Anyway, food for thought for those who are interested.

mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/...

[AARA]

Hi Lucy,

Thank you for your encouraging and helpful post, plus the interesting and informative link. I am aware of the work of Jeff Leach. More like this when you find it please.

I did my first post last week about how trying to develop a healthier microbiome has had a very positive effect on my sense of well being and given me hope that my future can be better than the years since my health collapsed in 2004 after taking Heliclear Heliclear is a combination of drugs, (two different courses of antibiotics, plus a third drug) taken at the same time aiming to eradicate H Pylori Bacta in the stomach.

Last summer I read Missing Microbes by Martin Blaser, who has been researching this bug for over 30 years and now considers it plays a vital role in controlling the levels of intestinal inflammation in our digestive tract. Others say that it is high levels of intestinal inflammation that are at the root of the rising tide of Chronic Autoimmune Disease crippling the Western World both for the individual and financially crippling our healthcare systems.

It would be wonderful if we can reverse the rise of Chronic illness which has exploded in the last 50 years in the Western World.

My post about the Microbiome has now had over 70 replies and the likes just keep coming. Some on the is forum are clearly interested. Currently I have been off all my meds. for over 20 weeks and counting. It was not that my consultant thought I no longer needed by biological, but due to long standing infections I was told I had to come off the biological as continuing to take it had become just too risky.

Wishing you well.

AARA

[Simba1992]

Thank you Lucy11 for the link and posting. It seems that gut health really is very essential both in sickness and in health but it does often seem very complicated to accomplish this. I do think there is a point in following seasonal variety in foods. When I grew up as a child, this was very much the case and now when living here on the French countryside living mostly on the produce of farmers I feel I'm returning to this. On the other hand if you have an AI condition is variety enough to normalize gut microbiome? Probably not. Then we come to the exhausting trial and error part where every individual seems to have their own story.😳

[helixhelix]

Interesting, thanks. I'm sure that the microbiome will have a big role to play in future, but perhaps in a more sophisticated way than just altering our diet.

We eat seasonally, as basically eat what we grow for much of the year with some locally caught fish. So winter is largely root vegetables but do occasionally crack and buy tomatoes..... And also eat unpasteurised cheese, and have pretty basic housekeeping standards and a chemical free household so I think my gut is nearly as good as it gets in developed world. I'm contemplating splashing out on the British Gut research project so see how my microbiome measures up against others....

Interestingly we had vegan family members visiting for last 10 days, so were eating a completely vegan diet. And of course I flared.... just had cheese & tomatoes on toast for lunch and feel much better. All this is so individual!

[Lucy11 in reply to helixhelix]

Through work I had my microbiome tested. My company paid for it and I initially didn't pay much attention to it. I have a few questions about being compared to their general population base. If our microbiome can change within a few days how often are you meant to test? Also, if it changes seasonally and you test in the summer will your data be checked with someone who tested in winter? Or does that even matter especially if you haven't made major diet changes? I really don't know.

I was tested to be 95-98% healthy. But the diversity of my microbiome is way below others. I also have very low lactobacillus- It has now sparked an interest in me and may have it redone and see if it has changed or remains the same.

[helixhelix in reply to Lucy11]

From what you've said you live well, so odd to have low diversity.. I think you've helped me make up my mind that I will get mine tested - thanks.

[Lucy11 in reply to helixhelix]

I thought so too. For a long time I didn't consume dairy products so it's no real surprise that lactobacillus would be low. I really don't eat a huge variety of foods. I keep it pretty simple so now I'm trying to add more variety.

I do believe if you test at different times of the year you'll receive different results. One girl at work tested several times and had significantly different results each time.

It's really going to get interesting when they start doing clinical trials in humans isolating the role specific bacteria play in diseases like RA.

I'd be curious to hear how your testing goes. Please keep us posted.

[helixhelix in reply to Lucy11]

I have just read an article about the gut tests being quite unreliable. However, I'm going to ignore that and see what I get as curious about the state of my innards. I like to think that I have a rich & varied flora in my gut and imagine it as a microscopic landscape of pretty patterns and colours. However since I take sulphasalazine it might be a dead sludge coloured landscape instead....

[ITYFIALMCTT in reply to helixhelix]

"dead sludge" made me grin

For people in the UK, this has a good reputation: britishgut.org

But, you're in France, iirc - I've no idea if there are similar projects there.

May I ask, was the article about all gut diversity tests or just those offered by some of the more commercial labs? Or was it more about the interpretation of the findings rather than their accuracy?

[helixhelix in reply to ITYFIALMCTT]

My gut is British....so I signed up to British gut and I just have to send it back as fast as possible. The article was merely someone who tried out tests from different labs on same sample and got different results.

But I'm not that bothered about complete accuracy, as just curious to get an idea about general activity levels.

[Matilda7]

Thanks from me too! I made my first batch of sauerkraut a couple of weeks ago to see if increasing my fermented food intake will make a difference to my health...but unfortunately I'm not enjoying eating it very much!

[ITYFIALMCTT in reply to Matilda7]

What do you dislike about the sauerkraut? Texture, taste, salt?

[Matilda7 in reply to ITYFIALMCTT]

Taste....guess it takes a bit of getting used to! I've just downloaded the cleaver guts app for the princely sum of £4.99

cleverguts.com/introducing-...

And haven't yet managed to find all the things that are meant to be there ie

'This App will keep you right up to date with the latest science and research into gut health. The App has been developed by Michael Mosley and his team and contains exclusive videos, podcasts, meal plans, High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) workouts and recipes that will keep your guts in tip top condition.'

Sounds great...anyone else tried it yet?

Have now found the podcasts etc but not impressed...not much on anything I'm interested in. Pity.

[Matilda7 in reply to ITYFIALMCTT]

Also finding it difficult to stop the kraut getting a 'bloom'and tasting 'off'.

[ITYFIALMCTT in reply to Matilda7]

Is it kahm yeast that you mean by that? It's a fair nuisance.

phickle.com/the-wrath-of-kahm/

What were you using as the fermenting vessel?

[Matilda7 in reply to ITYFIALMCTT]

Yes, having read the article, it probably is...thank you! I started off using a large glass jar with a wide neck and have now put it into several smaller jars and added more brine. This morning I put them all in the fridge...they were in the kitchen.

What do you use to weight down the veg? I tried a large cabbage leaf and a smaller jar filled with water but it didn't work very well as veg at the sides of the jar kept popping up.

When I moved to smaller jars I put in the 'circles' that I used to use when making jam, to try and exclude air....but there's nothing to add weight of course.

[ITYFIALMCTT in reply to Matilda7]

If you use something like a Kilner jar it's possible to weigh down the contents by using something like a glass ramekin or a small empty glass jar because the jar takes up a reasonable amount of space - is your jar and neck very wide?

If you tuck the sides of the large cabbage leaf over the contents and down the sides of the jar, this tends to work well.

Are you a member of the FB group, UK Fermenting Friends? They're very good at troubleshooting and helping new members or those new to fermenting.

[Matilda7 in reply to ITYFIALMCTT]

Thanks for these suggestions. What do you do when you transfer to smaller jars in the fridge?

Yes, I've recently joined the FB group.

[ITYFIALMCTT in reply to Matilda7]

Once it's in the fridge for storage - I'd top it up with brine to keep it covered and keep scooping out the floaters whenever I took a serving.

While you're starting out, try cutting the vegetables into a size where it doesn't float so readily? Or, let the vegetables stand for a while and remove floaters before putting it in jars (doesn't stop floaters coming up during fermentation but does reduce them).

[helixhelix in reply to Matilda7]

You might have it somewhere too warm and light? Needs a cool, and even temperature. It's a family favorite, and when I was growing up we had a dark pantry with a stone shelf that it used to live on.

Try tasting after just 4 or 5 days, as milder taste might suit you more. And then build up slowly? But so variable. I'd happily eat sauerkraut for breakfast, but other fermented foods I find repellent!

[ITYFIALMCTT in reply to helixhelix]

I was really surprised by how much I like fermented giardiniera: food.com/recipe/fermented-g...

I like fermented carrots with dill as an easy add-on to meals when I'm not up to much vegetable preparation.

I'm not a fan of all kimchi but others are good.

[Lucy11 in reply to Matilda7]

Have you by any chance tried making Kombucha? I haven't but am keen to try. When I was in Hawaii they sell Kombucha in the grocery stores by the barrel full. One corner of the store looks like a craft brewery pub and you can bring your own container to fill up. It's mad! I don't like sauerkraut or kimchi but I've tried Kombucha and it's not bad. Curious how difficult it is to make on your own and if it tastes ok.

[ITYFIALMCTT in reply to Lucy11]

It's a piece of cake to brew once you have suitable scoby and very flexible (the tea that is brewed and other flavours used for the second ferment).

[Hidden]

You might find this interesting:

nras.org.uk/can-ra-predicti...

Beverley

[Mistydawn in reply to Hidden]

Thank you Beverley. I'd be very interested in participating in any research study on the back of this please.

[Hidden in reply to Mistydawn]

The best place to keep track of any trials going on in the UK is here:

ukctg.nihr.ac.uk/

[Mistydawn]

Thank you for sharing x

[Witness2]

Good to see that NRAS are already onto this as I imagine they hear what's emerging at conferences like OMERACT where researchers and academics present ideas for trials.

Thanks from me too Lucy11.

Interesting to hear that some of you are enjoying the benefits of fermented food - the Keystone approach that AARA mentioned suggested, I thought, that we should avoid them - or perhaps I misunderstood. I'm working my way through it and starting to remember how very time consuming and challenging it is to get started on a new eating regime. I am very torn between reaping the possible rewards of improving my gut health and just remaining apathetic and eating what I like! I guess I'm influenced somewhat by the 10 years I spent dieting carefully without drugs which ended badly - but then again I wasn't being monitored by a doctor which would have checked for disease activity.

Can anyone who's tried the keystone diet tell me what they eat for breakfast? Avocado doesn't fill me up for long and I crave a substitute for bread 😬

[Simba1992 in reply to Witness2]

Hello Witness2,

I just got my Keystone approach and haven't yet had time to read it but I am in fact of the same opinion that understanding the effects of fermenting is essential, not until then can you really take a standpoint.Ray Peat, a skillful and well known biochemist explains why fermenting is not neccessarily recommended. Before I get more science based believable evidence for the contrary, I will keep away from fermented food. Here is an interesting discussion on fermenting and probiotics.

raypeatforum.com/community/...

[Simba1992 in reply to Simba1992]

Read what Keystone Approach had to say about fermenting and it was about the same as Ray Peat. Not recommended.

[helixhelix in reply to Witness2]

I take the low road, so basically avoid the most evil things and otherwise eat what I like - including mouldy blue cheeses. I've been eating sauerkraut since I was weaned, and am still here so doesn't seem to have done me any harm as I guess I can't blame RA on excess cabbage consumption.

[Witness2]

Thanks AARA, Simba and Helixhelix. I'm still reading but noticing how it's having a very positive effect on me psychologically, believing again that maybe there's something I can do to alter the course of my RA. Time will tell.

A colleague suggested quinoa as a bread substitute. Obviously it can't be made into a sandwich but it can provide a protein replacement for bread as a 'filler'. I realise how carbs have been my Go To bad habit when hungry.