A new day, let's see what we have learnt

(I' will reply to anyone who posted on yesterday's thread healthunlocked.com/nras/pos...

But I rather thought a clean start to today might be useful. So what have we learnt?

1 People here are very passionate and take responsibility for the RA

2 NRAS follow official NICE guidelines on diet

3 Non-drug, non-dietary solutions exist to solve RA for some people

4 At least one person has used dietary changes to resolve their RA issues (ie me)

5 That using the paddison program the process took 10 months for me to change from wheelchair to almost freedom from RA

6 that same program is freely available to anyone on this forum

7 these dietary changes involve eating primarily fruit & veg

8 this diet is cheap and easily available

9 that no-one is suggesting give up the drugs without consultation with a doctor

60 Replies

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  • Morning Andy

    Well done opening the day with a summary of what you felt was learned yesterday . I'm not sure I learned what you seem to have decided?

    I'm not at all convinced that anyone's RA is "resolved" through paddiosns, or any dietary regime . I do not doubt for a second that they may greatly help bit to say that they totally "resolve" RA, I cannot agree.

    I also think for many reasons, this programme is not accessible to everyone as you suggest.

    Thank you for attempting to begin the day on a more positive note but I'd be grateful not to be included in your description of what "we" have learnt and as a mature, Intelligent woman, will direct and decide my own learning.

    Have a positive day.

    Marie

  • Marie,

    You are right to focus on "totally resolve". My body is at risk of RA, and that risk will stay with me for the rest of my life. I will need to stay vigilant throughout my years.

    I know I can cause RA issues in my body, for instance a week ago I tried to reintroduce artichokes . It was a bad choice, and I won't try them again for at least a year.

    I also have an arsenal of tools to keep RA at bay. These tools I have found reliable so far, but only time will tell if they stay so. If I have the strength to post on the day before I die (which hopefully is 40 happy years and more away) then I will write my my final report card honestly and hopefully with integrity.

    Cheers Andy

  • Good stuff.

  • Oh thank you Eiram. I am seriously losing the will to live here. To such an extent that I couldn't address all this if I wanted to. I love your incisive approach.

  • Yes. I felt myself responding was approaching the level of energy I would spend managing a mini flare !

    Each to their own- I have absolute respect for that but I also think once a point is made - leave with people to do with as they wish.

    For me, it is done.

    Hope your well.

    Marie

  • postle2 All posts on this forum are optional, so do what I do - if find a subject tiresome just don't bother reading.

  • I take an interest in everything that affects us people with inflammatory arthritis. The debate re. diet etc. is ongoing. Okay, rather too ongoing for me but it's not going to stop just 'cos I find it irksome and I do want to know what's afoot. Allow me that one little squeak, I thought it was rather mild!

  • Equally, I'm not certain it was Wiley the subject that was tiring but possibly the feeling of being directed in what one should be doing?

  • Not sure what "Wiley " was doing in that sentence - apologies!

  • There has been quite a bit of coverage in the papers in last few days about eating the recommended increase to 10 portions of fruit/veg. And what has come out strongly is that this is completely unaffordable for many. Compared to value supermarket food, fresh fruit and vegetables are expensive not cheap, particularly for a family on low income. And the time needed to create an interesting diet based on the limited variety of cheap veg is also impossible for many, let alone cookery skills to make it ok for all the family including kids.

    Often it's hard enough summoning the energy to cook one meal, so any approach that isn't palatable for the whole family is not possible.

    And artichokes! I rest my case......

  • Agreed!

  • Hi helixhelix.

    Thank you for raising the 10 a day. Yes many people find they love oils+salt+sugar available in almost all processed foods. If someone is still buying the same convenience food, alcohol, soft drinks, crisps, biscuits, chocolate, cakes, coffee, tea, sugar. Yes, then adding 10 a day to that becomes an expensive addition.

    In contrast my trip to the supermarket is fruit-veg aisle, whole-foods aisle, checkout.

    Not very exciting perhaps, but its cheap quick - and in my experience RA free.

    Bring the cost of fruit and veg down even more from your local market. Especially as the day draws to an end when they will happily add extra fruit and veg for free. Just make sure you have someone else to help carry the bulging bags!

    And supermarkets mark fruit & veg down every day - just find out what time of day they tend to do it and cash in!

    But you have to look at the total cost of eating & drinking. This includes take-aways, restaurants & pubs. Eating plain veg with glasses of water in a restaurant is as cheap and healthy as it can get. I went out on a Christmas meal. Other people were all charged £25 a head, plus drinks. I was charged £2.50 total. That pricing difference I have repeated at many restaurants & pubs. Okay, everyone else's meals looked pretty, but mine meant I could walk out of the restaurant happy, with a full & healthy tummy - and no RA issues.

    And yes, cooking for yourself takes time and energy. That's worse for people with RA. I remember many dark days trying to cook an evening meal for myself and my better half, when my pain was excruciating such that I could not stand up long enough to do the washing up, never mind cook a meal.

    My cooking skills, as bad as they are, are self taught. It was hard learning how to cook without "convenience foods", without dairy in particular. Yes cooking is indeed a big hurdle. My wife bought me Deliciously Ella's cookbook, but even that is of limited value because, although vegan she loves her chocolate and coconut and olive oils.

  • Andy; I'm unsure whether you mean to present as immflamotory and judgemental but what I do feel more sure of, is you seem to have difficulty taking on board and respecting others point of view / experience.

    An example may be that it's been pointed out many times, how difficult your suggestion ( insistence?) re these dietary changes for those on low income etc.

    I refer to below

    "If someone is still buying the same convenience food, alcohol, soft drinks, crisps, biscuits, chocolate, cakes, coffee, tea, sugar. Yes, then adding 10 a day to that becomes an expensive addition."

    As a social worker, I have come across few, of any, single Parent families, low income families etc that live as you describe above?

    Also, to suggest that certain groups of people may have the money, resources and energy to rush to the shops at any specific time to ensure access to fruit and veg that has been reduced in price, just seems full of potential challenges.

    On continuing to argue this way, I'm not sure you do your argument any favours.

    As I've said before, it's great that you feel the way you do And I understand and accept your need to share this. However, I don't agree with the way you do this and increasingly, I find your comments immflamatory and if honest, quite condescending.

    I think everyone's heard you make your point and out of respect for others feelings, it's maybe time to let it go?

    Marie

  • Marie,

    I know about low income families. My own rather large family (in Yorkshire) is hardly a shining example of high income. I know about the challenges of making ends meet. True, I am out of that trap for the moment, but don't ever judge me by saying that I don't know about it, because I do.

    I also know the challenges of someone with family needs, not to mention special dietary needs when put into context of a family who may have no obvious medical conditions that put dietary restrictions on them. I know of one person struggling on the Paddison program living with three people who love their meat.

    Cheers Andy

  • Andy, thanks for you're response. Can we just be very clear that in within any of my posts, I do not believe that I have passed any judgement on you personally and I do resent the implication that I have?

    I feel I have pointed out difficulties associated with your suggestions rendiet and the resolving of RA as well as statements within these posts that can be construed as possibly immflamatory and judgemental - I have the sense I have not been alone Here I'm feeling this.

    Again, I do not believe that I have judge you or personalised anything I've said but I do few that you now have.

    With respect to your feelings and your own values re what you offer as "long term solutions" and from one who clearly is not "active" enough in "owning" my RA, I now actively choose to no longer communicate on this post.

    It's energy I choose to spend more productively.

    Best wishes and long may your health continue.

    Marie

  • Oh Andy please change the record! You do as you feel is right for you and leave others to do the same. You sound very obsessed with all this! That is unhealthy!

  • Change the record? Recently I went to Milton Keynes to see the Transports (folk opera by Peter Bellamy). New artists redoing the 1977 LP, which is one of or most treasured possessions. One of the best evenings entertainment I have ever been to. Made me dig out my LP - Martin Carthy, Norma Waterson, et al on the original - does it get any better?

  • I fear you don't understand & it's inflamed me. When you can live & eat on the equivalent of £17 or 20€ a week, handed out to you by your parent, then tell me how it's easy. I've been there, even the markets in Spain as cheap as fruit & veg is there it's a bl@@dy struggle. Thankfully the pouring of our money into the business venture paid dividends but it was a struggle on literally none of your own money, relying on handouts & parents paying the bills. Hey, one Christmas my gift was a bar of Lindt 70% chocolate, my h put 5 cents away each week so I had something to open on Christmas Day, I made it last 2 weeks, that's hard up.

  • nomoreheels I am sorry you have had it very tough. I'll try not to spar with you by recounting the hardships some of my rellies have had to live through. Playing the "I can tell a worse story", game will do no-one any good. Life is awful, truly awful for some people, indeed many people! Glad things are easier for you now.

    Can I suggest that if you do not like any of my posts - simply ignore them. You do not have to respond! Learn to move on to other posts that you like. I will not be offended if you do that. Rather I will think well of you in making a good decision.

  • Oh good, I wasn't recounting my experience to 'spar' with you, it's not needed or wanted. Just so you understand it was my experience & can happen in this day & age. That you think I'm playing games by revealing such personal previous circumstances says far more about you than it does me.

    Learn to move onto other posts? I'll choose what I do & don't reply to thank you, I don't need your permission. Others have called you condesending, maybe your efforts would be better placed working on that before you being offended if I respond to your posts.

  • Plain veg and glasses of water??????????????? Why bother going to a restaurant?????

  • If there is something on menu that I can safely eat, I will have it that's for sure. But I like going to pubs & restaurants because I enjoy the company of friends and family in a relaxed environment. I would rather go out for the evening and not eat rather than cause a possibly excruciating arthritic reaction. I always carry a snack just in case there is absolutely nothing to choose from.

    Sometimes I have taken my own food along and the chef has reheated it and presented it to me. Reheating is done at no cost whatsoever. These are damned enjoyable evenings, surely that's a good thing.

    Sometimes the chef has prepared a meal, starters, mains & puds just for me and & dietary needs. This is usually after emailing and calling to discuss my diet. On those evenings I am generally totally ecstatic.

    As my health improves sometimes I eat something from the menu that is not totally on-diet. That night I go to bed and wait for the arthritic reaction, if any.

    If no reaction, then I note it and add this to my test regime to clarify if that is an area where my health is becoming more tolerant.

    Any reaction, from experience, starts probably around 3am. My last reaction started as pain on top of my left foot. I immediately knew to place my other heel over the pain and push down on the pain and slide the pain towards the toe. It works! One of the dietary tools in my toolbox is to empty my bowels as quickly as possible after such an incident. Another is good cardio exercise to get the bowels moving. With these and other tools, my health is good now so that a reaction reliably burns out in 24 hours.

    By keeping on top of such reactions I know that a flare will not compound on top of another flare.

    With these and other strategies I can go to any pub, any restaurant and enjoy life!

  • Oh Andy, what a miserable existence. Makes me appreciate we have choices though, that there are others worse off. Plenty we can choose from any decent restaurant's menu, heck I enjoy the odd portion of fish & chips with no repercussions, having some tomorrow, that's what my h fancies to eat after being away.

    What a faff having to call & arrange cooking of your personal menu too, if this is what eating a specific plan does to your body then I think we're far better off on meds & you've to live like this the rest of your life, assuming there are no yet unknown long term ill effects on your system. Am I right that you also still take a DMARD too? I admit I had no idea it was so limiting, that it's such a lifestyle change & I'm not sure that what you've to go through just to eat out will be encouraging to others thinking of starting this plan & I believe that it's even more limiting initially? Does it not bother you that something so ordinary like going out to eat, a pleasure in life, could start a flare? I'm sorry but your last para doesn't convince.

  • We all make choices. Yours is meds and any foods you want, fine.

    Mine is foods that make my body healthy. Every day I am amazed by totally unprompted comments such as I had on my way home, not more than 30 minutes ago from a local shopkeeper, "Andy you are looking so healthy these days." I never asked for that comment, but hardly a day goes by without that kind of compliment. If getting compliments is a price I have to pay, I'll accept it with grace.

    And miserable? I have never felt so much energy and zest for life. It took me 63 years to get here, but I have woken up and am grabbing a full and healthy life with every ounce of energy I can muster, and that is a lot more energy than I ever experienced in my life - ever. I get up at around 5am every day rocking and rolling. My mind is clear, I have focus and that is the way it stays until I go to bed.

    On the subject of Fish & Chips, a good friend of mine has gluten-free F&C every Tuesday in Cheltenham. Tuesday is the day they change the fat, so every Tuesday is GF F&C day.

  • what about the batter? That's not gf

  • I love artichokes but can't afford them! Thanks for pointing that out!

  • As far as I know my intolerance of nightshade plants, incl artichokes, is not common.

  • Well said Helix x

  • Leave bulb artichokes on the plant, they become beautiful flowers &, to be perfectly honest, it's the best place for them.

  • done. Many thanks - my motto for 2017 whilst down on my allotment.

  • Enough already andyswarbs!

    I think we received your message & really don't need at list to tell us what you think was achieved.

    As I said before I am very pleased for you that Paddison agrees with you,but please let the rest of us make up our own minds what is helping with our RA........we are intelligent beings who don't need to be bombarded with information on nutrition....if we want to research what will suit us we will do just that.

  • Yes Andy there are many on this site that have benefited from dietary modifications. As I have described I am certainly one of them who is still managing my RA without Ra meds with elimination diet, supplements and LDN. It may be that I am just one of the lucky ones but since these treatment options are not toxic and do not interfere with RA meds they may be worth a try😊They may help you reduce or even get rid of some meds or then not. The frustrating and often painful search for the right RA med combination, as we know, is not always successful eather 😕

  • I too have benefited from changing my lifestyle - diet, exercise, stress levels and so on. My body is able to tolerate taking my RA meds with no side effects and i am generally in remission. But I don't follow any of these dietary protocols, I tried to start with for many months but they did absolutely nothing. Instead I simply focus on living well with daily exercise and eating a varied balanced diet with little/no processed food. So it's not that I don't agree that diet is important, just that these extreme approaches are only for the few not the many. So no need to guilt trip those who choose not to.

  • Definitely right helixhelix . The Paddison program is in some ways one of the ultimate programs when all other solutions fail. There are many solutions out there - whatever works.

  • Hi this has turned into a very long post about what has happened to me. You may want to skip to the last couple of paragraphs if you want to read it at all!

    0 I have had RA since 2008. When I was first diagnosed I like many people had no clue as to what Rheumatoid Arthritis was and indeed how many other arthritic conditions there are. I discovered that you could have psoriatic arthritis ... my Grandmother and my cousin have Psoriasis. Neither of them have got arthritis. My consultant told me that due to genetics there is the link between different conditions. So this family genetic link mixed up with the other possible triggers that my body reacted to have led to me having Rheumatoid Arthritis. My aunt who was a nurse has never told my cousin about the possibility she could get RA or other related conditions. Ignorance can be bliss. The only other indication of a link was a relative back in the 1950's who was recorded as having gold injections.

    In trying to understand the reasons why I had developed Rheumatoid Arthritis, and wishing to believe that I could cure it without the frankly scarey drugs I was offered. I set out to find alternative treatments. I have to say that at this point the RA was classed as low grade, but with an 18 month baby it had its effects. I bought a book called treating RA the drug free way by Margaret Hills. She had RA and as a result looked for a cure. Changing her diet and using cider vinegar, amongst other things. At this point I believed that following this to the letter would get rid of RA. I was positive and believed it would work. I read about RA, I looked into the conventional medical treatments. I read about the drugs there side effects etc. My consultant supported me in following a natural approach. All this time my symptoms were confined to my hands mostly. He wanted me to start methotrexate, the approach was to stop RA progression you hit it hard with drugs. I read about Methotrexate, I was scared to try it, peoples experiences were different, but here I was stuck between the fear of not following conventional medicines advice and risking a sudden progression in disease, or stick to diet etc and believe I could find a cure without any drug treatment. So the RA didn't change I still had it. Why wasn't it going? What was I doing wrong? I spoke to the Margaret Hills clinic. Various possible reasons were given. But Margaret Hills was 'cured' within a year, why was it different for me.

    I carried on and then suddenly one day I came down with a nasty bug. The RA that had been lurking on a managable level suddenly changed into major pain, stiffness inflammation. I was put on a high dose of steroids for a few days and offered methotrexate. Did I want to take it? No. I knew I had to take it. I felt so ill that I accepted the need to make that choice. After all this time I believed it would be ok. I didn't get passed the second dose of methotrexate. As the consultant said my body didn't like it, it was poisening me.

    So began the road of bad flare ups, steroid treatments, anxiety, depression, trying to manage life,and look after a little girl in the midst of it all. Frustration when the next drug didn't agree with me. Recovery from the effects of this on my body when already fighting RA. A roller coaster ride. Dealing with the knock on effect of me being ill on my daughter my husband. Who can help? How am I today? Does my husband need to take time off again? Will my daughter be upset seeing mummy in bed, explaining why Mummy can't do things. Emotionally, mentally, physically worn out. Still trying to look for a light at the end of the tunnel. Oh yes be positive. How an earth do I organise eating the right things now. How do I get to the shop, cook when I can't even get out of bed. We are just about coping...Just. This is too hard. Actually I've had enough, I'm going to have a chocolate biscuit, glass of wine.I feel depressed defeated. I can't cope. This is how it is. I have done my best. That lady in America didn't title her website RA Warrior for nothing!

    Oh I feel a bit better today I could almost imagine I don't have RA. Wham that bit of light has gone, can't move today. Will they let me take Biologics arn't they the ones that mean you get your life back?

    Enbrel, Humira and another I forget its name. They work! Amazing! BUT I didn't know that that isn't the end of the story. They have other effects. Guess what I get allergic reactions, to them. Enough to have to stop them. Apparently I am one of an exclusive club who is very sensitive to the drugs. Wonderful. That's the thing with autoimmune disease its full of surprises. Just when you think you've found the right diet, therapy, drug treatment and life is going along nicely it can change track and catch you out.

    The immune system is a complicated beast. Sometimes it decides to malfunction. What are the reasons for this? Well they are still trying to figure this out. They haven't yet. Huge steps have been made. Steroid treatment was once thought to be the answer. My GP said that in maybe 50, 100 years time they may have a breakthrough that will produce personal genetic profiles and so medicine can indeed treat us individually.

    So today I am now on Cimzia. Only 3 injections in. I have had some allergic signs. I can take antihistamine but don't know if it will be enough. It is hard to know that it works but maybe I can't take it long term because of allergies. At the moment I am grateful that I have been able to do so much more, not be in pain and not have the crushing fatigue etc. All those extras you don't necessarily get or know about in the beginning! Yes I think about the drugs and what else they could do to me. Yes it is frustrating to know that some people can get on so well with treatments and feel better, when you are struggling. Would I prefer to have found the answer through diet and other ways. Yes.

    What has become clear to me through these years of managing with RA is this:

    RA is tough. Treating it is about management. This is not just about the physical symptoms. It effects people physically, mentally and emotionally. Having a chronic illness like this effects each person in its own unique way. If you don't respond to different treatments whether conventional or alternative that isn't because you haven't tried hard enough, or are unwilling to do the best for yourself. Its because we are all different and each persons capacity to deal with such an overwhelming illness is influenced by multiple factors and coping mechanisms. Some people like Margaret Hills have found that diet and life style changes were enough for them. Others find they get some relief but need other treatments too. You don't just have RA because you smoked, had too much stress, lived the wrong way for too long etc. You get it because some sort of perfect storm of factors occur that change the way your immune system functions.

    NRAS has given me so much from information to support. Each person deals with RA in their own way. There is no blue print of right instructions. We are all coping the best we can, and the way it effects each one of us is unique and can vary. To me this forum allows people to say it how it really is for them. Yes sometimes people may talk about feelings that are hard to take in. That doesn't mean that a day later they may be far more up and positive. That is the whole point of having a forum like this. To talk freely about' where you are at '. To find people who will listen and support you, which isn't always as easy when in the outside world.

  • Thank you Mouseling much appreciated.

  • Wow! Reading through that, I felt I was with you all the time, like a fly on the wall.

    I don't have RA, I have OA. Similar feelings of fatigue, emotional stress, good & bad days. Wearing myself out when I've over done the household chores etc.

    All i really want to do is, have a bloody good night out, well into the early of the morning, having had one or two (cough cough) glasses of decent wine, a lovely meal, with the other half & family & friends.

    DREAMING!!!

    Ah well, never mind. Just have to be a cup of tea, slippers, & the tv 😄

  • Well said mouseling and I genuinely wish you all the best in what reads a very difficult journey .

    Marie

  • What did we learn? In the main...

    1: that some people were unaware of the passion of others around them.

    2: That some people assume (ass-u-me) that just because an individual is not resolving their disease through diet they must be avoiding acting responsibly and 'owning' their own health issues and thus need a thinly veiled 'pull yourself together' talking at to get them onto the approved 'road' to self-cure and an automatic knighthood.

    3: that some people were unaware that dietary change, for some, would mean moving away from eating primarily fruit and veg as that is what they already do with no discernible benefits regarding their RA symptoms and progress.

    4: that some people were unaware that several members of this forum do use diet successfully to change the nature and extent of their condition but don't use their success to berate those who have not found success along the diet road.

    It's a funny thing this learning, isn't it? We can all sit in the same 'class' and yet come away with such uniquely different nuggets of enlightenment!

    Ali

  • Hi ali_h, well said.

  • If I believed that diet cures autoimmune diseases then I should recommend the diet I ate when I was 22. So, I was able to overcome Multiple Sclerosis by smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. 3 Kokanee beers and 3 pieces of pizza. Sometimes I would have a McChicken & fries, but I always made sure to smoke my 20 cigarettes a day. The cigarettes kept the fat off of me. Very important to a 22 year old girl.

    I would never recommend this diet, but my MS did go away while I was on this diet. I haven't had MS in 28 years and I refuse to believe it was my diet that chased it off. I was just lucky it went away. I hope everyones auto immune disease goes away.

  • Also... I remember on TV a woman who ate just crisps for breakfast lunch and dinner day in day out and looked as healthy as anyone. Some people smoke all their lives and do not die of cancer and live to a ripe old age.

    The difference with the dietary approach is that there is scientific research to support it. NRAS rightly says that dietary research is not "gold standard" research, but then not everyone has the unfathomably deep pockets of pharma to establish "gold standard" research. Also to do a double-blind whatever on a white tablet and compare with a placebo that also happens to be shaped and coloured exactly the same is relatively easy to design and execute. Try doing the same with a courgette? Almost impossible.

    So what I am saying there is the deck of cards is stacked heavily against getting "gold standard" research on diet. Not impossible but by golly it is going to cost very serious money, and possibly much more than the same test on tablets.

    My RA did not go away by accident. It went away because I corrected the problems in my gut. It could have been cider vinegar that corrected it. It could have been a packet of cigarettes. But the evidence shows that gut problems are resolved most consistently by steps such as taking a wide range of pro-biotics every day (free with every leafy green vegetable), healing the gut (going very easy on foods for a day or so, such as in a cleanse). And so forth.

    You know full well that if you cut yourself that the body will heal itself and that in a few days or less the skin will show no evidence of any cut whatsoever. We also know that to heal properly you should not leave it covered with sticking plaster. Sticking plasters are essential for short term use, but not for true healing.

    Your gut is part of your very same body and obeys the same rules. Given time and good food - and reducing the sticking plasters when appropriate - it will heal.

  • Sorry, there is no scientific proof to support "gut" theory. "Leaky gut" is a term to confuse people to buy a certain product. Pro biotics do not survive gut acid. " leaky gut" needs to be scientifically proven. Sadly it is not. Please do not misguide people. It's not a nice thing to do.

    Why not submit the Paddison programe to the World Health Organization as a cure? You wont because you know it is a con. Prove me wrong please.

    Why don't you do Clint a favour and help him to win the Nobel Peace Prize for medicine? You know as well as I do that this will never happen....but you are free to prove me wrong.

    Peace to you

  • Do look at recent research. Lots of studies on leaky gut. No longer just an arbitary theory. Gut health fundamental in health an disease since our immune system regulated to 70% from the gut. Without a healthy microbiome many things can go wrong. Since RA meds are hard on our stomach it can help to support gut health through diet.

  • Please tell the truth. Lots of studies on Leaky gut syndrome, Nothing has been proven. What University has proven Leaky Gut? What date? When has the World Health Organizantion verified this theory? Please state what country discovered and proven the leaky Gut. If World Health Organizantion has not verified this theory, then it has not been proven. Please stop spreading lies and falsehoods. It's not a nice thing to do.

  • see my comment below

  • Shame on you for stating leaky gut is true. Again what unitversity? When did WHO recognise it? Dates please.

  • All I asked was where exactly you had a problem with my suggested model.

    You have a theory that gastric acid does a complete job, I think. That's what I want to be clear about. Is that your position?

    When we know that, or some other similar theory, we know where you stand, and where I stand.

    Only then can we look at the research that comes in the middle. How can I present research against your case if you do not clearly present it?

    Have you ever watched Black Adder? I am reminded of the Blue Stone of Galveston scene.

  • I stand in reality. What is proven. It is dangerous and careless to claim "leaky Gut" causes autoimmunity when it has not been proven.

    I am happy that diet is helping you. I truly am. My issue is you claiming "Leaky Gut" is scientifically proven and is the cause of autoimmune. Leaky Gut has not been proven.

    Peace to you

  • peace to you as well.

  • I'd like your comments on

    thedailybeast.com/articles/...

    I don't expect I'll get them, but I thought since it presented both sides of the argument so clearly that I'd give you the opportunity to answer it.

    The final para is interesting, "But that’s a deeply unscientific stance. Evidence does not only come in the form of pharmaceutically-funded drug trials; it also comes from basic science and through careful observation. And those observations should not be dismissed because they do not conform to our current medical dogma. We are simply missing too many opportunities to help people get well."

    Sincerely yours, someone who is getting well.

  • Again, when was Leaky Gut proven? Dates please. What university? Anytime you post your "used car salesman" statements, you should ask yourself what was the year, name of scientist and University that proved Leaky Gut?

  • Would you accept a statement from the NHS website, or is that also run by used car salesmen?

    "While it's true that some conditions and medications can cause a "leaky" gut (what scientists call increased intestinal permeability), there is currently little evidence to support the theory that a porous bowel is the direct cause of any significant, widespread problems."

    Essentially our official government advice is that leaky gut officially exists, and that for instance some medication makes it worse.

    They then go on to support the NRAS/NICE position that the evidence supporting porous bowels causing widespread problems is weak.

    Weak does not mean no evidence, it means it does not meet gold standard required by NICE/NRAS. Weak means if you decide to investigate dietary options, buyer beware. But as I have already stated, the paddison program is freely available to anyone on this forum.

    If you want to read the full article yourself visit

    nhs.uk/conditions/leaky-gut...

  • We all know what IP is. What we do know is that Leaky Gut has not been proven. Leaky Gut is not IP. And YES I do accept what the NHS & NRAS (UK governing body) says about Leaky Gut. It states that Leaky Gut has not been proven.Let's hope the NRAS can prove this theory, but as of today it is just a theory.

    All the best to you. Please PM when it has been proven.

  • This in no way proves Leaky Gut exists. Maybe you don't understand what is the meaning of Scientific Research? Why research is important? A double blind study is needed. And this study has to follow the rules of research held at a reputible University. I hope one day it is, but as of today it has not been proven.

  • suzannedale You have a theory that pro-biotics do not survive gut acid. But where is your proof? I am not talking theory here, I am talking proof. Verified gold standard research! I am really interested, really.

    There used to be a theory that meat & dairy proteins were far too large to enter the blood stream. The fact is they have been shown in time ad time again to be in the blood stream. How did that happen? Call it what you want, I like the term leaky gut.

    Have you ever submitted anything to WHO? Do you know what you are talking about here?

  • No, I do not have a theory that pro biotics do not survive our stomach acid. It is fact. Please prove that it does. WHO is run by the Unitied Nations. Only scientist submit their resuts. Soo why not ask the comedian Clint to get his scientist to submit results to Who?

    Again what university has proven Leaky Gut? Dates please. Prove me wrong. You can't can you? You just spread the lie of Leaky Gut. Shame on you.

  • So, when you say something it is a fact. When someone else says something it is a totally unproven theory. Let's talk about the story of the stomach and (hydrochloric) acid. Please tell me where I am wrong.

    When the acid in the stomach has broken food down sufficiently, small amounts are squirted out of your stomach into your small intestine for further processing. This normally occurs within four hours of eating a meal, but can take six or more hours if your meal has a high fat content.

    For the stomach to break things down it needs enzymes. Where do these enzymes come from? Well one good source is probiotics.

    Moving on. "The small intestine does further processing..." that means the acid in the stomach has not broken everything down. If the stomach is not functioning properly that means it is more likely the small intestine will have undigested proteins.

    Ideally anything that is waste goes out through the bowels.

    But as I have already posted it has been shown that fats from dairy enter the blood stream in people with arthritis. So these fats that enter the mouth have not been fully digested in the stomach, showing the hydrochloric acid has not done a complete job. The lower intestine has not been able to digest these proteins. They have not been passed out through the bowels. So they enter the blood stream.

    I hope the author does not mind: this was just posted on a facebook group an hour ago, fact. "After doing two weeks on the paddison program I have had my bloods done. My ESR reading prior to starting the program was 63. Having done the program my ESR just come back at 23. This is obviously working." I have no connection with the author of this, no idea who he or she is or where they live.

    I am tempted to ask, "how many anecdotes does it take to change a light bulb?"

  • Again, what university proved "leaky gut?" Dates please. What scientist? When will this scientist recieve the Nobel Peace Prize of Medicine.

  • Leaky gut is a marketing term.

    Intestinal permeability is a 'real thing'. There are lots of papers on the subject that can easily be found by using your favourite search engine and looking for scholarly articles.

    What is not yet so clear is the association between IP and autoimmune conditions, but there is a lot of research being done at present.

    It will be years before this research leads to anything clinically beneficial (for us autoimmune'ers'), so in the meantime the best we can do, it seems to me, is do our own reading, make our own minds up about what we are prepared or able to do, and see if it helps. As long as we aren't harming ourselves (or others) in the process by limiting our diets too much (which is where the research comes in), and are not being coerced or 'guilt tripped' into it, what's the harm?

    If it helps, great. If it doesn't - no harm done.

    FWIW I'm having fish and chips for my tea tonight....

    🙂

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