MEAT PROTEIN QUESTION

[Scared-woman]

I know some swear by vegan..and I am sure that works great...but my question is......when it comes to meat protein...why is red meat so frowned on compared to say chicken...fish...pork? Reading about meat forms and how cooked they break down to creatitine....all seem to be in the same range of creatitine...... so what would be the difference as long as you are staying within your protein allowance? Do eggs break down to creatitine?

[Hidden]

Hi, the simplest way to explain this is that if you eat too much shellfish, fish or pork they may be harmful to your kidneys. Red meat is a difficult product for your kidneys to process. There are other more in-depth reasons but that's the simplest. Also, there are two types of pork white and dark. White pork meat can be eaten occasionally but not dark.

A good general rule to follow is, "Everything in moderation." Avoid red meat and only eat white pork, fish, and shellfish from time to time. I'm not a proponent of the vegetarian or vegan meal plan. If that's something you feel better at, go for it. I'll match my numbers for creatinine and GFR following a sensible protein intake. I do eat shellfish, fish and from time to time white pork, but never red meat. When I was diagnosed with CKD my GFR was 32 and my creatinine was 2.1. As of November 4th my GFR was 53 and my creatinine was 1.4.

I follow my nephrologists and RD's advice and suggestions. What works for me, does just that...it works for me.

My protein is limited to 8 oz. per day.

[Scared-woman in reply to Hidden]

Thank you......no not planning on vegan or vegetarian at this point....just looking for info.

[Dixidude39 in reply to Hidden]

I like the answers you and steve680 have written. With an eGFR of 27-29, I only consume meat protein rarely. Mr. Kidney, the reversal of your eGFR is short of phenomenal. Any other factors in your life to account for this miracle? For instance, I'm an active 80 year old. I'm guessing you are younger, and that could be a big factor. Your thoughts?

[Hidden in reply to Dixidude39]

I'm 68 and very active (up until the surgery 5 weeks ago), but I've now been given clearance to begin again, but slowly. I believe that for me a lot of it is attitude. I watch my meal plan, I take all my meds (after checking for issues), I keep my appointments, I stay abreast of health issues and keep myself mentally strong. Many years ago I previewed a film for my students called "I have Tourettes, but Tourettes doesn't have me." To paraphrase, I have CKD but CKD doesn't have me. I refuse to give in to highs and lows regarding my numbers.

I live my life how I want to and don't allow myself to get down. Having chronic illnesses can be a debilitating issue if you let it. I choose not to.

Finally, I realize that not everyone can do this. Everyone can do it to some extent. Do what you can.

[WYOAnne NKF Ambassador in reply to Hidden]

Yes, yes, yes...I firmly believe that attitude is EVERYTHING.....not just with CKD but with LIFE in general. If you look for the bad, it's usually there for the finding.

As Mr_Kidney, learn as much as you can about CKD and your kidneys. Knowledge is powerful and can make everything less frightening.

[Bet117 NKF Ambassador in reply to WYOAnne]

Agreed, WYOAnne!

[Bet117 NKF Ambassador in reply to Hidden]

Well put, Mr. _ Kidney!

As long as you are breathing, find the light in each day and allow it to guide you in living!

[steve680]

The latest research indicates that a limited amount of grass-fed beef or grass-fed lamb is OK to eat. However, if you have CKD it's best to limit all forms of animal protein, as animal protein generates high amounts of acid in the blood and can cause acidosis. I currently take sodium bicarbonate to fix acidosis and try to limit animal protein. Egg whites are a great source of protein and have a high protein to phosphorus ratio. You should also eliminate processed meats from your diet as they are high in sodium and phosphorus. There have been studies that have shown a high correlation between eating large amounts of red meat and End stage Renal Disease, though it isn't clear if that is grass-fed red meat or processed red-meat, and it's not clear exactly how much is A LOT of red meat - once a week, once a day? However, if someone told you that a lot of drinking alcohol causes kidney disease, you would probably figure that the safest path would be best to avoid it all together. Can you enjoy a grass-fed burger once in a while? I would say so. With CKD, I think it's most important to establish HEALTHY HABITS:

1) Eat a MOSTLY vegetarian diet (I don't think you need to go Vegan)

2) Stop smoking (if it applies)

3) Drink alcohol in moderation (stop drinking if you can't stop at 2 drinks)

4) Get 45 minutes of exercise/day

5) Get sufficient sleep and get checked for sleep apnea if you think you have (a lot of people who have CKD also have sleep apnea)

6) Stay hydrated

7) Limit coffee or tea consumption to 2 cups day

8) Eliminate processed foods

9) Eliminate foods high in added salt or sugar

10) Don't overuse or abuse painkillers, sedatives, laxatives or even OTC medications as they can cause kidney damage. Discuss any medications with your nephrologist to make sure they are kidney friendly.

11) Manage stress.

12) Since diabetes and high blood pressure are the #1 and 2 causes of CKD, work with your doctor to get these under control. This will help maintain stable kidney function and may even improve it.

13) See your doctor(s) regularly and don't miss appointments or lab tests. It's best to catch things early.

14) Take all medications as prescribed.

[Zazzel in reply to steve680]

Just a little side note to Steve and Mr K’s wonderful explanation. The reason grass fed red meat is mentioned instead of just red meat is that grass fed has a higher ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6 as well as more vitamins and minerals than cattle that is sedentary and fed grains such as soy and corn. Being that CKD is an inflammatory disease, it’s important to keep our inflammation down. So, if you choose to eat red meat occasionally, spend the extra money and eat grass fed.

[Bassetmommer NKF Ambassador]

Hi Scared,

This is a really good question and I went looking for an answer. The bottom line is that red meat does not process through the same way as other proteins. It takes more to break it down. And it produces more uremic acids and other toxins which are hard on the kidney and the heart.

"Red meat intake may lead to an elevated production of uremic toxins by the gut microbiota, such as trimethylamine n-oxide (TMAO), indoxyl sulfate, and p-cresyl sulfate. These uremic toxins are associated with increased risk for cardiovascular (CV) mortality. Limiting the intake of red meat in patients with chronic kidney disease (CKD) thus may be a good strategy to reduce CV risk, and may slow the progression of kidney disease " ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/292...

I wise person once told me to look at teeth in animals. Those who are supposed to eat more meat have more sharp pointed teeth for tearing flesh. Think tiger, dogs, cats and so on. Those who are supposed to eat grains and grass have more flat grinding teeth. Think cow. We have more grinding less sharp....

[steve680 in reply to Bassetmommer]

Could it be that humans (homo sapiens) have flat teeth instead of sharp teeth is because 1) We don't kill animals with our mouths 2) We use tools to butcher the meat 3) We use utensils, eg. steak knife and fork, to cut the meat into chewable pieces? The latest theory on evolution is that we evolved from chimpanzees which are primarily vegetarian and chimps don't use sophisticated tools to kill, butcher and eat meat. Three percent of the average chimp diet comes from meat. Perhaps we should go back to eating like chimps? I hear that chimps consider monkey meat a delicacy.

[Oldearkie_83 in reply to steve680]

Sounds yummy! Wet that rascal down good before you skin it. That helps to keep a lot of hair off the meat. How about jellied monkey brains? If you can get it, domestic rabbit is an even healthier meat than chicken.

[horsie63 in reply to steve680]

I wondered about when in our evolution we evolved from eating meat (cave dwellers) and was it during the change to hunter/gathers and then to growing crops that the change occurred? It's rather fascinating the science of evolution.

[dkljj2020]

Animal protein is acid and difficult for kidney to process. Plant protein is alkaline and has little affect on kidney negatively. I switched to an all vegetable protein diet 2 months ago and my numbers improved significantly. Especially my creatine. jrnjournal.org/article/S105... This link is to a scientifc journal article that explains why. It is very hard to understand, but if you really read and try you will get the basic idea.

[horsie63 in reply to dkljj2020]

If your nephrons and the like were damaged due to HBP would a plant based diet help with more than just holding stable? That's my number one question for the nephr I see on June 7. That and the referral to an RD.