Salt: Apparently it is (or was, as of... - Low-Carb High-Fat...

Low-Carb High-Fat (LCHF)

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Salt

TheAwfulToad profile image
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23 Replies

Apparently it is (or was, as of yesterday) National Salt Awareness Week, organised by some worthies known as 'Action On Salt' (actiononsalt.org.uk/), with the hashtag ''#eatlessalt'.

If nothing else, the existence of such things probably tells you all you need to know about our unhealthy relationship with food and the tsunami of pseudoscience that carries it all along. Anyway: Salt. Why are people obsessed with eating less of it, and should we take any notice? Have a look at Action on Salt's claims:

"The current target is to reduce salt intake to an average of 6g a day for adults and even less for children, from the current average of 8.1g a day. This reduction will have a large impact on reducing strokes by approximately 22% and heart attacks by 16% saving 17,000 lives in the UK as well as other health benefits for the population."

Is there really any justification for this?

As this excellent article explains...

journals.lww.com/nutritiont...

... your body will adapt readily to a wide range of sodium intake, because that's what it's designed to do. It just excretes what it doesn't need, but it'll have real trouble magicking salt out of nowhere, and has to do quite drastic things to compensate for a lack of dietary salt. The risk curve shown at the bottom of the article is unsurprising, given the underlying physiology.

To the extent that there might be any meaningful 'recommended level', it's somewhere between 3-5g/day (equivalent to 7.5-12g salt) based on a neat definition of 'nutrient requirements'. By some mysterious coincidence (mysterious, that is, if you're a nutritionist) this is more-or-less the intake that people naturally tend towards, left to their own devices.

The takeaway point is this:

"In a recent Cochrane analysis of nearly 170 randomized controlled trials, Graudal et al found not a single example of a study with a blood pressure effect from sodium intake reduction in normotensive individuals. There were no studies of health benefits accruing to the reduction of salt intakes of healthy adults to levels below those prevailing in Europe and North America (~3450 mg/d; 150 mmol/d).

...Blood pressure reduction is a reasonable proxy for health outcomes in hypertensive individuals on high sodium intakes, but it simply does not track health outcomes in normotensive individuals at average or below average sodium intakes."

In other words, people who are put on low-salt diets are at risk of stroke for reasons largely unrelated to salt intake ... and the medical establishment has no interest in addressing those reasons.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that we are all eating too much salt. Where is it coming from? Here's the answer for Americans, at least:

webmd.com/hypertension-high...

"Only 10% of [salt] comes from our shakers. An estimated 77% comes from sodium in processed or restaurant foods:

Yeast breads

Chicken and mixed chicken dinners

Pizza

Pasta dishes

Cold cuts

Grains contribute 37% of our daily sodium. These foods include grain-based frozen meals and soups, breads, and pizza (which is mostly salty bread).

Meats, including poultry and fish, contribute 28% of our daily sodium.

Vegetables contribute more than 12% of our daily sodium. This seems surprising, but potato chips and french fries are vegetables. And canned vegetables, vegetable soups, and vegetable sauces tend to be loaded with sodium."

Now, we of the LCHF persuasion eat few of these things (I have no idea what a 'mixed chicken dinner' is, but I'm guessing it means KFC with fries and Coke, or similar). We probably eat less meat than the average American (280g/day). We don't touch 'yeast breads', pizza, pasta, or anything else with grains in them. I doubt many of you eat canned soups or sauces. Processed foods just don't feature on the LCHF menu.

And yet our diet is still considered disastrously unhealthy because of all that salt/fat/cholesterol (move goalposts accordingly). I guess it's another one of those 'paradoxes'.

How about that claim about saving lives? There's no reference given to back up that claim, and frankly anything that claims to save a specific number of lives is BS almost by definition. What do we mean by 'saving lives'? How do we accurately predict what would happen in a hypothetical scenario? And then there's this, which I posted a while back:

healthunlocked.com/lchf-die...

Which noted that older people with high cholesterol simply don't have strokes. So rather than getting a measly 22% reduction in strokes by putting everyone on a diet of salt-free gruel, how about ensuring that all older people have high cholesterol and eliminating strokes entirely?

It doesn't really work like that, of course. But the observation is fascinating in that it gives some strong pointers for future research which might actually reduce the number of strokes. Predictably enough, there's zero interest in that.

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23 Replies
ChubbieChops profile image
ChubbieChops

So back in the day when we were chasing sabre toothed tigers for dinner and didn't have access to a salt shaker or cheese, I wonder what our daily salt intake was. My blood pressure is quite low and the doc told me to increase my salt intake which is quite difficult to do if you aren't eating crisps because it makes food inedible!

in reply toChubbieChops

Honestly, I don't eat much salt apart from bacon and gammon where it occurs. I'm just probably salty enough, as I don't like a lot of salt either. Apparently, lack of salt can be a contributing factor to restless leg syndrome.

ChubbieChops profile image
ChubbieChops in reply to

Yes, I get more leg cramps now on LCHF but I've discovered I enjoy Bovril!! Seems to help. Don't know if that's a similar effect as restless legs

in reply toChubbieChops

Oh, are you finding you get more leg cramps? I thought it was just me...

Subtle_badger profile image
Subtle_badger in reply to

Not just you.

healthunlocked.com/lchf-die...

It's insane: I tried the soap trick, and have only had a couple of very mild cramps since.

in reply toSubtle_badger

Not really any good for me, as I don't get the cramps in bed so much. I could put a bar of soap under my chair at work...

Subtle_badger profile image
Subtle_badger in reply to

Seriously, just put a bar in your desk drawer.

It must be placebo, so that should work as well as anything.

in reply toSubtle_badger

I'll try it. And tape one to my wellie as favourite cramp moment is taking my wellies off.

ChubbieChops profile image
ChubbieChops in reply to

🤣🤣🤣🤣

ChubbieChops profile image
ChubbieChops in reply toSubtle_badger

That is bonkers!! But certainly worth trying

TheAwfulToad profile image
TheAwfulToadAmbassador in reply toChubbieChops

It drives me mad that doctors genuinely think that BP is all about salt. Yes, your blood pressure changes somewhat depending on your salt intake - your kidneys modify BP (locally and globally) in order to control the filtration rate of various substances, and blood volume is dictated (partly) by the need to maintain a specific sodium concentration. But very low or very high blood pressure is invariably a problem either with the pump or the pipes. Fiddling with blood pressure via drugs or diet completely misses the point. It's like telling a patient with meningitis to go home and take an aspirin for the headache.

ChubbieChops profile image
ChubbieChops in reply toTheAwfulToad

It increasingly seems to me that doctors don't seem to know much about diet and health or is that a sacrilegious thing to say? 🤔

SewMore profile image
SewMore

Makes me wonder whether we need a Sugar awareness LIFE instead of just a Salt week 😊

Subtle_badger profile image
Subtle_badger

Back when I cared about salt, and still ate processed food, I compared the amount of salt in a slice of Waitrose high tin white loaf (the sort that are baked in store, or at least presented as if it was) and my processed food obsession - a single 25g packet of Walkers sweet chilli crisps. The bread tastes mild, the crisps salty, of course. Do you want to guess which has .45g of salt per serve, and which has .35g?

ChubbieChops profile image
ChubbieChops in reply toSubtle_badger

I'm guessing the bread from your riddle! It needs something to give it flavour

in reply toSubtle_badger

I put one level teaspoon in my home made loaf. Dunno what that is in grammes, or what it would come out at per slice.

Subtle_badger profile image
Subtle_badger in reply to

I actually looked it up. The recipe I learnt to bake from would produce about the same level of sodium per slice. So the bread is fine.

That means the crisps are kind of brilliant, to taste so salty with so little actual salt.

Too bad salt is the least of the issue with them.

TheAwfulToad profile image
TheAwfulToadAmbassador in reply toSubtle_badger

Interesting! I googled it and it turns out most crisps are ~0.4g/packet (35g), while bread is 0.4-0.9g/100g (Waitrose consider a serving to be 50g, apparently). So crisps are definitely higher per gram, but considering the USDA tells everyone to eat 6 servings of 'grain based' foods (ie., bread) per day, at 29g/serving, they're still getting the salt equivalent of 2-4 bags of crisps from that source. And yet ... crisps bad, bread wonderful, even though they're both just starch (and salt). Bloody nutritionists. I swear half their problem boils down to a lack of basic math skills.

UK recommendations for bread (and typical UK consumption) are slightly lower than the UK, but still ...

MikePollard profile image
MikePollard

It's the same nonsense as '10,000 steps a day' or '5 a day'. Both with no science behind the claims whatsoever.

And don't get me started on LDL; again, just one more 'everyone knows...'

in reply toMikePollard

10,000 steps a day is just to give a more target-driven society something to aim for to get them moving, and the fact is, many of us DO need to move a lot more. Far more people today have sedentary jobs/lifestyles than did 40 years ago. That's what's being addressed, there. And the science does back up the fact that being as sedentary as so many of us are isn't great for our bodies. We ARE moving less and we ARE eating more. I worked at a school and was astounded at how much kids have in their lunchboxes today. I had one round of sarnies, a piece of fruit and a penguin. Now it's three rounds, a bag of crisps, a mars bar, and apple which never gets eaten, a sugar-loaded juice box, processed cheese ...' Society of abundance. And those same kids won't be going out and running around after school, they'll be going home to sit in front of a computer.

Same with 5 a day. When we know that many people have no veg or even fruit at all for days/weeks on end, something is better than nothing. I read a shocking statistic that for some the most veg they EVER eat is with their Christmas dinner. This sort of thing is an attempt to address the problem from the point of view of the person who lives on chips and pizza. You come up with a figure - do-able, easy to understand. Not four pages of scientific reasoning the majority who need it won't read. The science is there. It's just been vastly simplified. Baby steps.

TheAwfulToad profile image
TheAwfulToadAmbassador in reply toMikePollard

I wouldn't mind so much if they just said "don't eat so much processed junk", as the second link in my rant reasonably suggests. But they always have to do that reductionist thing. Perhaps they think it makes them sound like scientists. It's the salt! It's the cholesterol! It's the fat! No, guys, it's none of those. It's just the fact that the product is crap. It isn't food.

But they can't say that, because junk food brings in so much tax revenue.

Subtle_badger profile image
Subtle_badger

This is interesting

karger.com/Article/Abstract....

"..clinical practice guidelines regarding hemodialysis recommend salt restriction [..]Conclusion: Low salt intake, but not high salt intake, was associated with all-cause and cardiovascular mortality"

And the daily intake of salt that has the lowest mortality rates amongst the dialysis patients studied? 9g! Not only more than the 6g recommended in that article, but more then 8.1g it's estimated Brits consume each day.

TheAwfulToad profile image
TheAwfulToadAmbassador

I suppose not unexpected, since dialysis removes a whole lot of stuff that it shouldn't, whereas your kidney will reabsorb sodium - it's the existence of that process that makes dietary salt recommendations fundamentally nonsensical.

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