Nobody seems to know what the questions are - let alone the answers.
"Junk food" is bad - but does "junk food" include all processed food - including cheese?
"Whole Food" includes whole modern grains, which, in my opinion, are best avoided.
The question, I think, is not vegan or carnivore, but, from the Low-Carbohydrate, High-Fat (LCHF) perspective, ¿What proportion of our energy should we get from fat?
Red meat is not ideal, and, for LCHF, fatty meat or oily fish has benefits - and organ meat is, I think underrated - ask an Eskimo (Inuit).
A vegan diet can work if you make sure that you get enough of all the essential nutrients.
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S11m
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I think junk food refers to "ultra-processed" foods, which have substantial added ingredients and processes involved to produce them, while things like cheese are only lightly processed to preserve shelf life in a natural way.
There is a weird polarisation at the moment - LCHF means you're keto (keto often conflated with the carnivore diet), while WFPB means you have to be low fat. Most people would be more comfortable in the middle of that spectrum when it comes to fat content.
Yes, but a lot of advocates on WFPB also call it LFHC (low fat high carb), and seem to recommend limiting fat to 10% of caloric intake. That limits nuts, seeds and avocados too.
Your needs for your gallbladder are a perfect example of why one-size-fits-all dietary advice isn't great. If it works for you, it's great.
Hi S11m , this is easy to me, junk food is nutritionally poor/deficient and high in calories. And cheese and butter are natural whole foods.
Whole foods are just that natural unadulterated and unrefined so full of their natural goodness, however you are also right as we have a modern dwarf wheat that is tough as old boots to grow and is high in gluten so a strong and most valuable wheat.
As for vegans vegetarians and those an LCHF diet this is down to personal needs choices and ethics. I'm a coeliac so I have to eat gluten free and I make other choices like eating natural wholesome foods so we have to find what works for us.
I certainly don't class cheese as a 'junk food' - I think it's a tasty addition to a meal - and I especially enjoy a 'cheese plate' at the end of a meal sometimes. I also very much enjoy wholegrains as part of my meal choices. I enjoy both meat dishes, fish dishes and also vegetarian dishes - I try to vary my meals and like to eat moderate amounts - I prefer to include all food macronutrients - i.e. proteins, carbohydrates and fats, wherever possible.
I like to include spices and flavours - especially things like paprika, ginger, curry spices, coriander... I realise I'm not necessarily answering your questions here - but it was nice to think about food for a while, and I enjoy my meals.
I also don't have a gall bladder, but I find that I can tolerate eating some fats, and I tend to use olive oil, and butter as my preferred fats. I love eating nuts - there are so many different kinds of nuts, and they are very flavourful.
I always freeze my nuts once they are open, and they are great straight from the freezer - they don't need to be de-frosted - try it, and see what you think - honestly, freezing nuts is GREAT.
I think cheese is technically just a fermented milk - they separate the curds from the whey and introduce a yeast that ferments the curds into cheese. It's an old process that''s been used since before food processing /junk food properly existed
Nuts go rancid over time, even in sealed in bags. they always have done, nothing new, but manufacturers are a bit more alert these days. My granny used to keep nuts way too long & I can still taste rancid nuts as a childhood memory...
As mentioned, "processed" is generally shorthand for "ultra-processed".
My test for junk food is this:
(a) Could this product have been made 200 years ago?
(b) If it had been, would anyone have paid good money for it?
If the answer to both question is "no", it probably isn't something we should be eating (at least not on a regular basis).
I'm not just being a Luddite here - recent historical experience suggests that humans just don't cope well with novel foods such as solvent-extracted oils ("healthy polyunsaturated oils"), highly-refined starches (breakfast cereals, cheap cakes, etc) or synthetic chemical additives.
As for the LCHF-vs-WFPB argument, it seems to me that the argument only exists in the first place because LCHF is so frequently framed as being something it isn't. LCHF is WFPB. The core of a low-carb diet is non-starchy vegetables. But since we avoid starches, then by default we have to eat fat (some of it from vegetable sources). The fact that we remain healthy despite "all that fat" annoys the low-fat zealots no end, so LCHF has to be portrayed as a vegetable-free bacon-fest in order to discredit it.
As for organ meat ... I think it's time for a steak-and-kidney pie. Haven't had one for ages.
Paleo also suffers from this misconception. It's seen to be the same as a keto/carnivore diet, when in reality it's pretty much WFPB that excludes legumes (which I'm not sure why) and includes meat. Worlds away from carnivore and too high carb for keto.
There's a lot of overlap between most healthy diets. I think it's silly that people argue over which one is "the best". It seems to be quite hard to actually mess yourself up by eating the wrong things.
The basic problem is an unholy confluence of slick advertising, misdirected government money, and foolish advice from self-appointed experts pushing people towards the worst possible diet. Almost anything else is an improvement - including pure-vegan and pure-carnivore, even though I'd say both of those are on the limits of human tolerance.
I was curious about the bean thing and had to look it up! Apparently it's an issue with antinutrients, but since Leguminosae is a vast family that occurs all over the globe, and a lot of them are both tasty and nutritious, it's inconceivable that primitive man didn't eat them sometimes. In any case, almost all plants contain antinutrients and toxins (which is one reason I think it unlikely that vegan diet is uber-healthy).
AFAIK paleo allows carbs in more-or-less the same amounts as maintenance LCHF, on the basis that nature doesn't actually provide starches in large quantities (except at certain times of year).
Hi TheAwfulToad I think that our ancestors knew how to neutralise minimise anti nutrients like quinoa produces saponins and washing gets rid of that. And the Inca's knew this 3000 years ago.
I agree 100% about slick advertising being used to sell a product for a profit with no regard for the consumers health...☹️
I would say it includes more carbs, as you eat lots of sweet potatoes, root veg, fruits, dried fruit, cassava flour and some maple syrup. Some people may choose to limit them I suppose, but I certainly didn't when I was doing a paleo-style intollerance diet.
I am a social historian by educational background & want to slip in a thought not to idealise the past and the diet of the past. Those good old Georgian days (200 years ago). Poor people (ie most people) had a very carb rich diet because it was cheap. Potatoes were a staple In Northern Europe - the mass exodus to the US from Ireland in the 1840s was a response to the potato famine. Potatoes failed & they had nothing else to eat. There was no question of reaching for quinoa or freekah instead. Even when you had enough potatoes, you got rickets from lack of protein, and died young - partly from diseases that public sanitation & antibiotics deal with, and partly because you were so malnourished you had no immunity. Free school milk was introduced in 1911 because too many of the recruits for the Boer Wars (now called the South African wars) were malnourished. The changes to farming in the second half of the 20th century to produce reliable wheat strains etc, have reduced the quality of food perhaps, but have also massively reduced the cost of food & made it possible for many more people to be fed. My conclusion is to be VERY thankful I do not live in 1820, to steer clear of potatoes & shop bread, to make things from scratch at home as much as I can, eat cauliflower (it’s nicer roasted than boiled btw).
Oh, I'm not idealising historical diets - and certainly not the (British) diet of 1820. The Georgians/Victorians basically invented junk food. However the world is bigger than Britain, and history extends further back than 200 years. Pretty much everything that could possibly be eaten has been eaten, and of course many historical diets included a lot of carbs. But nature really doesn't provide a lot in the way of carbs, unless you do certain things to subvert nature - and that can often end in catastrophe. Carbs have never been inherently cheap, but it has often been a matter of political expendiency to make them cheap.
I spend a lot of time in a country where people subsist on rice, sugar, and garbage. They do this not because it's cheap, but because they (a) enjoy it (b) don't understand that it's the cause of the sky-high diabetes rate and (c) don't realise how expensive it is. The government encourages all farmers to grow rice, which virtually guarantees rural poverty and malnutrition. People turn up their noses at vegetables - even though they grow abundantly - because they think they'll die without rice.
While the economic and political factors behind the Irish famine are well-documented, I wonder what the psychological factors were? Potatoes do yield heavily, but so do lots of other things. My guess is that peasants relied on potatoes for the same reason Africans rely on cassava: land insecurity. You put a potato in the ground and you'll get a crop; if you're kicked off your land and have to go elsewhere, you can still put a potato in the ground and get a crop. More profitable forms of agriculture demand multi-year planning.
Thank you, I have heard of it before but didn’t relate the initials to it. We really do enjoy liver it is so tasty and it is very inexpensive, which I am sure would change if it became the best food you could possibly eat 😂😂😂
Organ meat aka offal is under-appreciated and therefore cheap - so why do they not use it as a cheap source of protein in processed food? - or do they?
On the list of ingredients, is beef beef, whether it is steak or offal?
My sister in law was a fantastic cook, she cooked beef heart and you would think it’s was steak. I’m sure quite an amount of offal goes into processed foods.
A bovine does not become a cow until it has had a calf! Most beef comes from bullocks, less than 18 months old... I think beefburger mince might come from cull cow - a cow too old to get pregnant again or produce much milk.
I also had liver, lovely. I don’t feel in the least bad and I follow a mainly whole food, plant based diet. The trick is to keep the red meat to an occasional small portion and to think of the vegetables first. I feel very strongly that if we eat meat we should think animal welfare as well as our own and if we can afford it, be mindful of the origin and eat organic.
”There is no clear definition of a what constitutes a whole-foods, plant-based diet (WFPB diet). The WFPB diet is not necessarily a set diet — it’s more of a lifestyle.
This is because plant-based diets can vary greatly depending on the extent to which a person includes animal products in their diet.
Nonetheless, the basic principles of a whole-foods, plant-based diet are as follows:
. . • Pays special attention to food quality, with many proponents of the WFPB diet promoting locally sourced, organic food whenever possible.
. . • For these reasons, this diet is often confused with vegan or vegetarian diets ( healthline.com/nutrition/ve... ). Yet although similar in some ways, these diets are not the same.
People who follow vegan diets abstain from consuming any animal products, including dairy, meat, poultry, seafood, eggs and honey. Vegetarians exclude all meat and poultry from their diets, but some vegetarians eat eggs, seafood or dairy.
The WFPB diet, on the other hand, is more flexible. Followers eat mostly plants, but animal products aren’t off limits.
While one person following a WFPB diet may eat no animal products, another may eat small amounts of eggs, poultry, seafood, meat or dairy.
.
SUMMARY: The whole-foods, plant-based diet emphasizes plant-based foods while minimizing animal products and processed items."
That is very informative. I enjoy meat, fish and dairy but not in large quantities, my meal is mostly vegetables. So maybe my diet is a little on the WFPB side, although I eat nuts and will add a few lentils. Beans and chickpeas bloat me.
We tailor the overarching food ‘philosophy’ (whatever that philosophy/ ‘label’ is) to suit our unique dietary health needs. 👍👍
[We have to exercise our own (gawd-given) common sense ⚖️ . . . 👍👍 ]
We have to understand (experientially learn 👩🎓 along the way) what "rules" (from the ‘philosophy’) work for us ✅ , which rules to bend ⤴️ , which to break ❎ , & which to ignore 🚫 because they don’t apply to us. (‘The Cider House Rules’: google.com/search?as_q=&as_... 🤔 😯 😄 ).
.
Maybe think of (view) these ‘philosophies’ as guidelines/ roadmaps 🗺 — not fixed, unwavering ‘strictures’ that demand do-or-die obedience/ adherence/ compliance to each & every ‘rule’ — each & every minute, nuanced detail? 🤔💭
Perhaps much depends upon our individual situations/ circumstances? 🤔
If we’ve serious health issues 🤕 ♿️ , we learn what requires ‘strict adherence’; if we’ve no health issues 🤗 , we may feel more comfortable ‘dabbling’/ experimenting 👩🔬 with a variety of ‘dietary philosophies’ to discover what suits us? 🤔
.
. . . If longevity 👵 🧓 👴 is our overarching priority, maybe we view 🧐 various dietary philosophies through that lens 👓 ?
. . . If disease management 😵 🥴 🤢 is our priority, we may view 🧐 the philosophies through that lens 👓 ?
. . . If speedy weight loss 🏃♀️💀 is our priority, we might view 🧐 philosophies through that 👓 ?
Whatever our individual goals 🥅 (priorities) are, that may influence/ sway/ steer us towards various dietary ‘philosophies’ because of what those dietary philosophies claim they do for us? 🤔
Think 🤔 💭 we figure out over time what works well for us (& what doesn’t). It just takes time 🕰 📆 🗓 .
In meantime, a lot of noise 🔉🔊🔊 & chatter 🗣💬💬 pulls us in various directions ⬆️ ↗️ ➡️ contributing to confusion 😧 , distress 😰 , cognitive dissonance ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogni... ) 🤯 . . . 🤪
Maybe we just continue trying 😣 to align with our internal compass 🧭 & follow 👣 wherever it leads us? 🤔 🤷♀️ ☺️
"There’s no denying that public interest in health and nutrition has grown considerably. But many are still unsure what makes up a whole food, plant-based diet (WFPB). Are you one of them? Do you ever feel steeped in competing information on topics like these? Well, you certainly aren’t alone.
A WFPB diet doesn’t include any meat, poultry, fish, dairy, or eggs. It’s not, however, the same as a vegan diet, which is defined only by what it eliminates. A WFPB diet is defined also by what it emphasizes: a large variety of whole foods.
The term “whole” in WFPB describes foods that are minimally processed. This includes as many whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and legumes as you want. It also includes, in moderation: nuts, seeds, avocados, natural sweeteners, and certain soy or wheat products that don’t contain added fat (e.g., tofu).
. . . The term “whole” in WFPB describes foods that are minimally processed.
Heavily processed foods, on the other hand, are not included in a WFPB diet. This means avoiding highly refined grain products (e.g., white rice, white flour), foods containing added sugars or artificial sweeteners (e.g., confectioners sugar, high fructose corn syrup), and foods containing added fat. Yes, even olive oil.
And that’s it, in less than 10 sentences. You need little else.
You don’t need a calculator to count calories or carbs. There’s no need to avoid cooked foods. Convenience isn’t your enemy. You’re allowed frozen fruits and vegetables, as well as their canned counterparts (just make sure to find low-sodium options). Blandness is not a prerequisite. You’re encouraged to experiment with as many spices as you’d like. And finally, contrary to popular belief, a WFPB diet won’t break your budget. Many of your trusty staples (think beans and potatoes) are among the most affordable foods in the grocery store. This diet doesn’t require specialty items hidden in the health food section. It requires no pails of agave or carts of cashews.
Many eventually give up the “diet” label, in favor of “lifestyle.” Perhaps that’s because our popular notion of dieting has become so warped and confusing. It implies a struggle, frames each meal as a challenge to overcome. A WFPB lifestyle is different. It’s not a short-term punishment charged by guilt. It’s simply a return to whole foods, rich flavors, and natural health."
[The green 💚, orange 🧡, & red ❤️ image toward bottom of page ( nutritionstudies.org/what-i... ) is a quick, easy reference, Lesley1234567. 👍👍 ]
"For a more comprehensive list of foods and explanation, check out our Whole Food, Plant-Based Diet Guide ( nutritionstudies.org/whole-... ).
"A whole-foods, plant-based diet is based on the following principles:
. . • Whole food describes natural foods that are not heavily processed. That means whole, unrefined, or minimally refined ingredients.
. . • Plant-based means food that comes from plants and doesn’t contain animal ingredients such as meat, milk, eggs, or honey.
A whole-foods, plant-based diet lets you meet your nutritional needs by only eating natural, minimally-processed foods where none of the ingredients come from animals."
[The image graphic on that page illustrate what’s included: fruits, veggies, tubers, whole grains, legumes.]
"Your Whole-Food, Plant-Based Diet—The Foods You’ll Love
Here’s a quick overview of the major food categories you’ll enjoy on a plant-based diet, with examples:
. . • Fruits: any type of fruit including apples, bananas, grapes, strawberries, citrus fruits, etc.
. . • Vegetables: plenty of veggies including peppers, corn, avocados, lettuce, spinach, kale, peas, collards, etc.
. . • Tubers: root vegetables like potatoes, carrots, parsnips, sweet potatoes, beets, etc.
. . • Whole grains: grains, cereals, and other starches in their whole form, such as quinoa, brown rice, millet, whole wheat, oats, barley, etc. Even popcorn is a whole grain.
. . • Legumes: beans of any kind, plus lentils, pulses, and similar ingredients.
There are plenty of other foods you can also enjoy— including nuts, seeds, tofu, tempeh, whole-grain flour and breads, and plant-based milks. However, we recommend eating these foods in moderation, because they are more calorie-dense and can contribute to weight gain."
If we’ve something that works for us — something that fits our dietary health needs/ circumstances, suits our personal guidelines/ beliefs — what’s to ‘feel guilty’ about? 🤔 🤷♀️
[If we’re bothered, annoyed, troubled… by guilty feelings about something (anything), isn’t that something we’d eventually stop 🛑 doing if it actually (deeply) troubled us? 🤔 🤷♂️ ]
In the words of Bobby McFerrin "Don’t Worry, Be Happy”( vimeo.com/35208015 ). 🤗 🙏 🍀 🌺 🌞
There was a very helpful video doing the rounds a few years ago which was simple and easy to follow
Eat fresh whenever possible and cook from scratch
If a drink/packet/tin/frozen food has more than 5 listed ingredients - avoid
If any listed ingredient is not recognisable as a food - avoid
We (LWD) recently had a talk by the lovely Emma Ellice-Flint from Emma’s Nutrition - she has some great ideas for simple/quick recipes and a no-nonsense approach to nutrition - whatever works for you and everyone will need something different.
I've heard this advice before - I don't think there's a need to avoid foods with more than 5 ingredients - that would rule out some good foods (e.g. curry, soups) that just rely on herbs and spices to get the flavour.
Hi we all have our own opinion but we really do not know what is being added. My favourite soup was tomato then overnight I couldn’t tolerate it they may have changed the recipe and it just didn’t agree with me. And I agree soups do need herbs and spices same as curries but I would prefer to add my own. Then I know what’s going into my food, alongside the pesticides 😂😂😂
I think they do have an obligation to list everything added, due to allergies, although sometimes there can be unintended cross contamination. I also don't think they need to list things like hydrogen/nitrogen gas used to help preserve the foods in the packaging, but that's commonly used on fresh veg and microwave rice as well, so you don't quite escape them by cooking at home either.
I wonder what they changed to suddenly make you ill though!
I buy organic when possible and I will only buy British and I always check it’s not something which is only packed in Britain either. I shop at a quality food hall which helps. I have a great dislike for supermarkets, I don’t believe they are any cheaper than a food hall or independent retailers.
I think we know exactly what the questions are. What foods if consumed regularly will lead to a long and healthy life?
Every time we put food or drink in our mouth it is a choice. We all roughly consume the same amounts each and every day. So if you put bad food then you are missing an opportunity for good food. Good or bad, bad or good.
Except it is not a black and white. It is a sliding scale. And some people need to avoid certain foods, eg dairly / gluten intolerance.
So if someone ate an almost wholly whole food plant based diet and a very little meat (once per week?) then, ignoring the ethical issues, that should lead to a healthy long life in ine with the Blue Zones.
You think a low-carb diet is good for you. Well at least you are thinking about food choices. Also you are probably avoiding junk food which is better than the average SAD lifestyle.
Unlike you I think whole foods should be consumed with gusto and in quantity at each and every meal. Science is unequivacal that consuming whole foods such as legumes will reduce the risk of cancer. Whereas WHO have classified sausages, ham, bacon etc as being highly carcinogenic, especially when put on to a BBQ.
Eskimos are hardly great role models for good health & long life. Their cardio outcomes in particular are no better than the SAD diet.
You wrote that you promote veganism because you are "doing it for the animals", or do you now suggest that we should eat meat once a week?
Most of us try to ensure that our diet includes all the nutrients we need... but we have zero requirement for carbohydrates, and, if we eat a "good, conventional diet" we do not need to worry much about the details - but I take a magnesium supplement for cramp.
¿What nutrients do we need?
You were unaware that we need to eat limiting amino acids - so, presumably, you did not know what a vegan needs to eat to get them?
"Science is unequivocal that consuming whole foods such as legumes will reduce the risk of cancer." Yes, as long as "whole foods" does not include grains.
How much protein is there in the average biscuit-meal and pork sausage?
Who funded the "research" that decreed that Eskimos ... cardio outcomes in particular are no better than the SAD diet?
I am definitely not advocating eating meat once a week. Especially as to where animal ethics are concerned.
However there is, as yet, no large scale society that has not eaten a little meat/dairy/fish. The Blue Zones come pretty close but even they ate a little meat, of the order of a couple of ounces a week perhaps. So there is no evidence, as yet that conclusively states a wholly vegan diet is right. There is a lot of evidence to support that direction, but final conclusive evidence is yet to arise. The evidence around vegetable based diets is entirely positive. The evidence around meats (excluding that promoted by the meat industry!!) is pretty negative. Get that up to a societal level - and we'll have to wait for a 100 years or more.
On the eskimo front here's one source ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... which states "increasing amounts of saturated fat in the Eskimo diet are related to CVD risk." If you want me to find others please let me know.
Not sure why you are asking about protein levels in sausages. I have never heard of a single case of protein deficiency. Cancer yes, I have some in my family. Diabetes & high blood pressure yes, I have plenty in my family. But protein deficiency is very very rare in my experience. Do you know of people with protein deficiency?
As to grains and cancer. Can I refer you to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/861... which states "Nevertheless there is a striking consistency in reduced risk for colorectal and gastric cancers associated with intake of whole grain, also found in isolated studies of endometrial cancer and coronary heart disease." That seems pretty positive about the consumption of whole grains. This is not a study, because there aren't many studies. It is a literature review coming up with the best possible advice to date. That's 1995 . So perhaps you have some newer studies showing negative outcomes?
I take anything on Bright Side with a pinch of salt (they do not even mention limiting amino acids, quinoa or lentils), but, this might be of interest:
Content on HealthUnlocked does not replace the relationship between you and doctors or other healthcare professionals nor the advice you receive from them.
Never delay seeking advice or dialling emergency services because of something that you have read on HealthUnlocked.
Mark Hyman: The Problems with Nutrition Science
Is lab grown meat the future? 
