What limits are there to what a plant based diet can cure?

[andyswarbs]

As anyone who reads my posts knows I am a strong advocate of a whole-food plant based diet (and indeed lifestyle). In my own body I have learnt that it can heal, and fundamentally my body is no different to any other human body. As part of that healing process I have researched and researched and have become totally amazed about the power of what a whole food plant based diet can help with health-wise.

But there are limits.

The first limit is personal motivation. This has to come from within. Inspiration for me came from watching the film Fat, Sick & Nearly Dead.

But I was not convinced until, in the depths of my deepest phase of arthritic pain and inflammation I drank just water for two days followed by cucumber & celery juice for a further two days. In that space of four days I was utterly convinced about the power of food. What convinced me? An almost complete lack of pain. And as soon as I started adding foods back - back came the pain. This personal experiment I have found repeated without exception in other people who also have/had arthritis and tried the same route.

That gave me motivation.

The second limit is support. I was advising one woman who lived with a husband and two teenage sons. The three menfolk loved their meat and I heard many stories of the woman being teased if not taunted in her attempts at every meal to eat what I consider a potential route to health. If you do not have support of the people around you then any recovery has an uphill challenge.

The Blue Zone research also focuses on the powers of social support for good health, though in that context it is talking also about the wider community around you.

The third strand is good regular cardio exercise. When you are in deep pain and immobility (as I was) then exercise is unthinkable. But using the power of plants I recovered to the point of being able to drive to a my local hot yoga studio (YogaVenue in Oxford, UK). Having gone once I ended up going back daily. The transformation in my body has been phenomenal. That's the description people at the studio use to describe the change in me.

After that some illnesses (and we are talking chronic illness rather than acute) do not respond well. Obviously if you have had an operation that has cut out a part of your body due to cancer then repair is impossible. But I was told by my doctor and so many others, "diet does not work" that I have got to the point ignoring such advice.

At the very least if you are ill then truly powerful healthy food can only do you good. Given such pre-condition then the human body has an amazing power of recovery. Just two days ago I spent 30 minutes on a train journey listening to a woman tell me her story. (I kept totally quiet about my background and story - honestly!) This woman had fought and continued to fight cancer successfully using diet for the last seven years. Her words, not mine.

Yes, plant power will help reduce obesity, and obesity is linked to so many chronic illnesses, including diabetes.

But there are limits. Sometimes specialist help is needed. Just going "vegan" would not have cured my arthritis. Nor would just going plant-based. Remember my body was polluted with a cocktail of powerful drugs over many years. So we have to address those challenges as well, never mind find a route to recovery (something I think of as akin to walking a tightrope.)

And there seem to be illnesses it seems no diet is going provide recovery from. Alzheimers seems to be one. There is research showing plant-power might be able to halt or at the very least slow down the progression in some patients, but no research showing reversion. nutritionfacts.org/2017/12/...

[Activity2004 Administrator]

This is very informative and interesting to read. Thank you for sharing this with everyone, andyswarbs !😀👍

[TheAwfulToad]

Your story is an interesting one, andy. I would encourage anyone with the kind of intractable symptoms you experience to experiment with their diet.

I honestly think the medical profession is in the grip of some sort of collective madness. These things happen now and then, when intelligent people get bizarre ideas into their heads and reinforce them within a closed echo chamber. The current obsession with immensely powerful drugs that cause more harm than good, and the neglect of simple dietary solutions, is absolutely fearsome. The man in the street still looks up to doctors as God-like authority figures who know everything, which means they can indulge their own wrong-headed thinking without any corrective force pushing them gently back to reality.

[Hidden in reply to TheAwfulToad]

'The man in the street still looks up to doctors as God-like authority figures who know everything, which means they can indulge their own wrong-headed thinking without any corrective force pushing them gently back to reality."

I wish there was one of those government petitions that force MPs to look at this longstanding problem in NHS healthcare. Their conduct has to be subject to some sort of open scrutiny, and I hope eventually patients would be protected legally. Currently, there is none (our legal protection whilst being a patient on NHS) whilst "they" got loads and loads (of legal protection). Even good doctors could make some human mistakes, but they would/might be open to making changes. The most uninterested ones (who are too busy to consider their own wrong ways) simply do not care. They stick to what they are told to do over the past 30-40 years+ regardless of patients safety and sometimes, they are downright negligent and their careers are still intact and thriving on NHS. So far as I could see, nothing is being done except having a hub like this where people could read and discuss.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to Hidden]

I suppose like any profession there are good doctors and bad doctors. There are undoubtedly some who just toe the party line until they can retire. My mum has lots of stories from her days as a ward sister!

I get the impression that doctors in general (and the good ones in particular) are heartily sick of the way the NHS is managed. As an organisation it seems to have completely lost sight of its fundamental purpose, and is now more concerned with targets and politically-correct nonsense: you can't tell people they're fat because they eat too many cakes, because that's judgmental ... the fact that it's true is beside the point.

GPs in particular are caught in a catch-22 situation. They're overloaded with patients coming in with heart disease, obesity and pre-diabetes, and all they can do is send them away with a handful of pills that won't work. Ideally, these patients need to spend a month away in a drying-out clinic, getting weaned off the things that make them fat and ill, and learning how to cook and feed themselves. GPs would then find themselves facing far fewer intractable problems. But how on earth would you do that with a third of the British population?

[suramo Star in reply to TheAwfulToad]

>> Ideally, these patients need to spend a month away in a drying-out clinic, getting weaned off the things that make them fat and ill, and learning how to cook and feed themselves.

I fully agree but difficult to manage.

@hidden.Today the medical practice is run by pharmas.The doctors and people too look for solace In drugs.Doctors want to scribble few medicines and patients too are happy. Everyone has found a comfort zone and it's very difficult to work out of that comfort zone.Any advices other than drugs have very low acceptance. Very sad.

[andyswarbs]

I certainly agree that just being vegetarian is not good protection. In my own case I put my lifetime love of cheese as a major cause of my arthritis. Similarly dairy is associated in research with many chronic illnesses.

Just going vegan for ethical reasons is a danger because some of these people will focus their diet on processed foods rather than transitioning to the healthy end of the lifestyle.

That said there is clear large scale, large timescale research in the adventist study 2 showing healthier outcomes for vegans compared with vegetarians, omnivores etc. That study alone puts significant statistical merit on the side of vegans. This study is interesting also because most of the adventist cohort follow healthy lifestyles by definition. So these are vegans for health reasons, omnivores for health reasons etc. There are few Standard American Diet people in the study.

Much past research into veganism and health has had limited cohorts of vegans compared with omnivores, vegetarian etc and thus have been poor on reliable statistical significance. As the new wave of vegan uptake grows more reliable evidence will emerge as years roll by, whichever way the axe falls.

[andyswarbs]

On your final point about vegan not being a cure for anything, the clinical work of Caldwell Esseltyn is worth looking at. Reversal of very bad heart disease with success currently at 100% for people at around 30 years with no medication or operation. Those odds I like.

[Zest]

Hi Andy,

I shall save this post to read over the weekend, when I have a bit more time, as I'll have a look at the link you put too.

Zest

[Redspot]

Very interesting. How did you start?

What did you follow?

Menus?

Thx

[andyswarbs in reply to Redspot]

The serious start to my journey was by following the Paddison Program. As well as being a whole food plant based approach there is comprehensive support of working through the potential nightmare of the full blown elimination process which is necessary for difficult cases, imo. Besides that there is a whole load of support on medication, when to up it, when to reduce it, which ones to reduce first etc.

[andyswarbs in reply to Redspot]

As for menu ideas I try not to go there. There is truth in "everyone is different", just that that game is overplayed in my opinion. We are all human beings, we all require the same basic nutrients and we all need to stay clear of foods that cause problems for us.

So as an example I will never recommend a recipe with tomatoes in it because that is a huge no-no for my body, much as I used to adore (and still do) them. As yet I have not been able to re-introduce tomatoes into my diet with total success. On the other hand they have proved a big problem for me with arthritic reaction that can take me down in serious pain for a few days.

Right now I am following GojiMan on youtube and he has some potentially very useful advice (for me at least). But I need to investigate that before I can recommend it further.

[JAS9 in reply to andyswarbs]

Gojiman is the best. Takes a little getting used to his voice and delivery, which are not polished, but his information is truly important and his motives appear to be pure.

[Hidden]

Andy,

Do you know if your parents/relatives have this same condition as you do?

[andyswarbs in reply to Hidden]

My sister has very bad arthritis and is in a wheelchair and limited to her home. Increasingly she follows my approach, but not sufficiently to have my success.

My mother had inflammation particularly in her legs but I don't think it was ever diagnosed as arthritis. My dad I think was clear.

[suramo Star in reply to andyswarbs]

Try lchf keto diet. Such conditions should reverse in 2-3 months. And that doesn't mean one has to give up vaganism.

[andyswarbs in reply to suramo]

What reverses arthritis is clearing up the gut & the immune system. I think this is 99% of everyone's problem. The challenge is the route to cleaning the gut and immune can be a challenge that most people aren't up to.

I just watched a video where someone said they gave up sugar by avoiding sweets and that did not do anything for them. Well that, whilst a potentially useful start, is no guarantee to see if sugar is or is not a problem for your body. It is a similar approach to banning complex carbs from your body because refined carbs are proving bad for you.

[suramo Star in reply to andyswarbs]

Oa is not immune related. Carbs esp refined and processed ones are responsible for inflammatory wear and tear in the body. Also, many people suffering from immune related arthritis like RA and others have been benefited by lchf esp keto range diet. We should look at the experiences of others with trust. But, only proof is we try ourselves and find out if it's beneficial to us.

[benwl]

Unfortunately there do seem to be a lot of vegan video bloggers making unsupported and extreme claims and sadly that can obscure the very real benefits of the plant based approach.

Such people are looking for 'likes' and 'hits' and the internet does seem to reward those that are extreme (not just within health).

That COPD video is a case in point - it seems that the lady in question did see some benefit, not a cure but some amelioration of symptoms and something I'm sure would be of interest to COPD suffers - but by making overblown claims for 'cures' the whole thing looks disreputable.

However if you skip past the hysterical claims, there is an increasing body of research that supports the idea that the plant based approach is healthier.

[benwl]

Here's a good intro to esselsyns work:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

What I think it's particularly impressive is the X ray pictures showing improvement in the arteries

[Kitten-whiskers Administrator Vegan star]

This is brillant Andy, and I agree completely. Diet has a massive roll. I had chronica illnesses, in which the doctor said could not be cure, well I done it. When ill, food and vitamins are the key and anyone who things this is twoddle might like to watch or read Norman Cousins - Anatomy of an Illness : >

Best wishes

Debs

[andyswarbs in reply to Kitten-whiskers]

Debs, I have just watched Norman. There is no doubt in my mind that without such positive thought we are doomed, individually and collectively. Also that the opposite is true. That is with positive thought we can excel. A hospital should be a place of inspiration, laughter and hope. There is much to be said about overdosing on vitamin C, however my approach is to concentrate on whole foods and where macro and micro nutrients abound.

[Kitten-whiskers Administrator Vegan star in reply to andyswarbs]

I couldn't agree more, it was a shame the doctor (and his friend) never thought it was down to the vitamin C and laughter - I followed this protocol for my Adrenal fatique and it worked wonders : >

[suramo Star]

What you eat is more important. Carbs, fats or / & protein. Eating more carbs in any form can cause obesity and other problems.

"I have read many articles on arthritis and used to read on the arthritis forums..you said yourself that you no longer post on them as they disagree with your method of healing because it dont work that way.". If it's a doctors' forum, one won't get answers. But healthy eating does help / reverse arthritic pain. There are people who have been relieved of incapacitating musculoskeleton pain with the help of going on the keto diet.

[andyswarbs in reply to suramo]

You are right that eating a serious excess carbs, any carbs, can cause obesity. Anyone who eats a serious excess of any foods risks becoming obese.

The body metabolises whole-food carbs beautifully to provide the energy for the body and there is no risk of obesity providing in general they are eating around the right number of calories to support their body.

Non-whole food carbs carry a higher risk but even these can support a healthy body. Check out the work of Dr Kempner who consistently reversed diabetes in patients feeding them on his rice diet which had white rice and even table sugar. Perhaps come back to me when you can explain away his work.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to andyswarbs]

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan.

It is impossible to cure diabetes with a rice diet for the simple reason that a diabetic has no metabolic pathway for carbohydrates. Give a diabetic rice and sugar and they'll be dead in a very short timeframe. If there are reports of any such "cures", the only explanation is fraud. Wouldn't be the first time someone has falsified their results as a route to scientific fame.

The key point here is that scientific results should be reproducible: I can find no work following Kempner to replicate his results. Is that because there's a conspiracy to keep his work hidden? Possibly, but the more likely explanation is that it wouldn't work in theory and would be far too dangerous to try in practice.

Wikipedia describes the 'Rice Diet' as a treatment for kidney disease and hypertension, not diabetes, with no practical application because it's so horrible:

"It came out in a lawsuit in which a former patient sued Dr. Kempner, claiming that he had literally whipped her and other patients to motivate them to stick to the diet."

That quote is from Greger's personal blog.

[benwl in reply to TheAwfulToad]

There are quite a few other studies showing how T2 diabetes can be treated with a high carbohydrate diet . This study for example:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/495550

Here T2 diabetics on a metabolic ward were given a high carbohydrate diet and as a result a number of them were able to discontinue insulin treatment. Why does this work? Because diabetes isn't just about carbohydrate metabolism, its about insulin response. Perhaps cutting down the fat improves insulin response so normal carb metabolism can resume.

Incidently, a Kempner study is referenced on pubmed here ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/135... but the text doesn't seem to be available, so we can't tell if its favourable or not.

[Simba1992 in reply to TheAwfulToad]

Scientific facts about diabetes and sugar.

raypeat.com/articles/articl...

[andyswarbs in reply to TheAwfulToad]

Whipping someone is totally unacceptable, whatever the reason. However that does not negate Dr Kempner's results.

Similarly I totally abhor the use of animals for medical research. But I know that most of the medications I have taken over the years are safer because of that research, albeit in many cases only marginally safer.

[benwl in reply to suramo]

If you eat more calories in any form there is a risk of obesity.

People who follow a plant based diet don't just eat 'more carbs', they also eat much less fat and protein so their total calorie intake is in balance with their energy expenditure.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to benwl]

If you're obese then you eat too many calories. That's a completely unremarkable observation and sheds no light on WHY fat people eat too many calories. A human being is not a bucket for food; it's a self-fuelling machine, and a critical part of its operation is its refuelling algorithm. When that goes wrong, people end up eating too many calories.

Eating less fat and/or protein doesn't cause your body to adjust its calorie balance. If that were true then those people who are avoiding red meat and eating low-fat food would all be healthy and slim, wouldn't they? Since they're almost always fat (and stay fat), that explanation can't possibly be right.

[benwl in reply to TheAwfulToad]

I'm glad you agree that total calories is the major determinant of obesity. Sometimes it's helpful to make statements of the blindingly obvious. It would be a real shame if someone who could benefit from following a plant based diet is put off from doing so because they read on a forum like this that "carbs cause obesity".

You are asking why hypothetical people who give up red meat and are eating low fat food are not silm? Perhaps some of them are slim. Perhaps some of them are eating too many calories. Perhaps some of them are fat from before and they haven't set up a calorie deficit to lose the weight. But these are hypothetical people that you've made up, not subjects in an experiment where we can actually know what they are eating, so we can't draw any conclusions from them.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to benwl]

>> I'm glad you agree that total calories is the major determinant of obesity

I wasn't agreeing.

People who are fat - that is, people who are carrying too much flab but whose bodyweight is not changing - are clearly in calorie balance. Input and output are exactly matched. In other words, they're not eating too many calories. How does your theory explain that situation?

People who are getting fatter are certainly burning fewer calories than they eat. So what? There is nothing implicit in that statement that gives any deep insight into why there is an imbalance, nor does it tell you how you might fix that imbalance. All it really says is: "fat people eat too much", which is pretty unhelpful.

>> "carbs cause obesity"

I don't think anyone here is asserting that. However, one problem is that human bodies seem to have a very limited capacity for using carbohydrate-sourced energy. Specifically, they can't cope with a rapid influx of carbs, and there are several ways to mitigate that problem. A second problem is that humans need fat, and plant-only diets are inevitably low-fat (and deficient in certain sorts of fat) which isn't healthy.

Nor was I suggesting that eating a plant-based diet is a bad thing; in fact I regularly argue in my LCHF posts that most of a healthy diet should be plants. The rest of it should be fat and protein.

>> But these are hypothetical people that you've made up

You were asserting that the cause of appetite failure (we actually agree on that, it seems, as being the proximate cause of obesity) is driven by fat and protein in the diet. Most people have taken on board the standing advice to reduce dietary fat, and some of them are now afraid of animal protein too. Unsurprisingly, the Authorities are extremely interested in such people, and there are a large number of studies; the one that springs immediately to mind is the Nurses' Health Study, which has been quite remarkable for the number of "no effect" observations that it's thrown up.

[benwl in reply to TheAwfulToad]

>> Input and output are exactly matched. In other words, they're not eating too many calories. How does your theory explain that situation?

What's there to explain? how they became fat in the first place? Because prior to reaching there current state they were eating more calories than needed. Why they are not getting fatter? I expect as they get fatter their energy use increases so providing their calorie consumption is not too excessive they will reach an equilibirum.

>> People who are getting fatter are certainly burning fewer calories than they eat.

>> So what? There is nothing implicit in that statement that gives any deep insight into why there is an imbalance,

>> nor does it tell you how you might fix that imbalance. All it really says is: "fat people eat too much", which is pretty unhelpful.

Better to say "fat people eat too many calories" - and it does suggest a solution which is to "eat fewer calories".

Why do people eat too many calories?

I favour the obesogenic environment explanation - in western societies most of the available food choices are very high in calories, so thats what people end up eating. I had quick look at the McD website, a large burger and fries comes in at about 1000 calories. That's half the recommended allowance for a woman, in one meal. A cup of whole milk coffee is 200 calories, a blueberry muffin 400 calories. That sort of stuff adds up very quickly.

What the plant based diet gives (and i suspect a lot of keto and paleo style diets do too), is a much lower calorie density. I eat a lot of food, I'm actually munching on red peppers as I type this, but unlike someone whos doing the same with hobnobs, it's unlikely to make me fat.

>> "carbs cause obesity

>> I don't think anyone here is asserting that.

Pleased to hear it, I look forward to you joining me in refuting any person foolish enough to make such a claim on this forum.

>> However, one problem is that human bodies seem to have a very limited capacity for using carbohydrate-sourced energy.

>> Specifically, they can't cope with a rapid influx of carbs, and there are several ways to mitigate that problem.

That may be true if someone is mainlining pure sugar - but i've not seen any evidence that it is an issue with the complex carbs mixed with fibre that is characteristic of a plant based diet.

>> A second problem is that humans need fat,

True but irrelvent since the plant based diet is low fat but not no fat.

>> and plant-only diets are inevitably low-fat which isn't healthy.

So what? Do you have any evidence for the claim that low fat (say 10% of calories) as part of a plant based diet is unhealthy?

>> (and deficient in certain sorts of fat)

That could indeed be an issue on a plant based diet - it may require some attenion to seeking out good fat sources such as flaxseeds.

>> Nor was I suggesting that eating a plant-based diet is a bad thing;

>> in fact I regularly argue in my LCHF posts that most of a healthy diet should be plants.

>> The rest of it should be fat and protein.

I suspect our diets are actually quite similar. I had a good friend visit recently who's following paleo, and we managed to cook a meal together. Most of it was a huge amount of non starchy vegetables - only difference was she had a piece of salmon on top, and I had baked sweet potato.

>> You were asserting that the cause of appetite failure (we actually agree on that, it seems, as being the proximate cause of obesity)

>> is driven by fat and protein in the diet. Most people have taken on board the standing advice to reduce dietary fat,

>> and some of them are now afraid of animal protein too.

>> Unsurprisingly, the Authorities are extremely interested in such people,

and there are a large number of studies;

>> the one that springs immediately to mind is the Nurses' Health Study,

which has been quite remarkable for the number of "no effect" observations that it's thrown up.

I think most people are aware of the advice to reduce dietary fat, but that doesn't mean they are actually doing it successfully. For one thing, they might be missing other parts of the advice to eat more fruit and vegetables and less processed carbs. For the other, a lot of food companies are able and willing to sell them "low fat" solutions that still have quite a lot of calories, either through added sugar, or simply that the fat is still quite high in absolute terms.

[JAS9 in reply to TheAwfulToad]

Vegans are the only group whose BMI is in a healthy range. Obviously, this doesn't mean that ALL vegans are thin; Oreo cookies are technically vegan, after all.

sunwarrior.com/healthhub/ve...

vegan.at/studien

[suramo Star in reply to benwl]

High carb foods are the cause of obesity and not fats and protein. Weight gain also depends on many other factors. Also body metabolism is flexible. BMR may increase or decrease. More calories doesn't always mean weight gain. It's not that simple of an equation.

[benwl in reply to suramo]

Stating that high carb foods are the cause of obesity is a very strong claim. Do you have any references to high quality published research to substantiate that?

Since this is a thread about the plant based diet, consider what happens to people like me who adopt it and get 80% of our calories from carbs. Do we become obese? No. That at least should suggest that there is something wrong with the carbs cause obesity claim.

You are correct that there are many factors involved in weight change. However total calories (and the difference between calories consumed and calories burned) is a very reliable predictor of weight gain or loss. For example I've yet to see a reliable study that demonstrates weight loss without an associated calorie reduction.

[suramo Star in reply to benwl]

There are a number of studies.

1) Look around in the nature. Buffalos, hippos,elephants, cows are all very obese.

2) Plant carbs are complex carbs. They are better than refined / simple carbs.

3) Scientifically, also carbs raise insulin levels. Insulin is an anabolic hormone. It's involved in lipogenesis. So whatever carbs remain unutised gets converted to fats.

Well, those who are eating a plant based diet, need not panick. As a precaution, they should check for sugar spikes.

medium.com/@davidludwigmd/g...

More the carbs and higher the spike, the higher the insulin release and more the lipigenesis.

[benwl in reply to suramo]

>> 1) look around in the nature. Buffalos, hippos,elephants, cows all are very obese

They are not obese - they may be large but that's not the same thing.

In humans, obesity is defined relative to an idea of what an ideal weight is. So it makes no sense to say a cow is obese simply because it is a cow. You'd have to decide what the ideal weight for cows was, then you could say if an individal cow was obese - in effect construct a BMI chart for cows.

But in any case, these are different species so not relevent for humans.

>> 2) plants carbs are complex carbs. They are better than refined / simple carbs.

Very true - thats why the plant based diet excludes simple and refined carbs

>> 3) scientifically also carbs raise insulin levels. Insulin is an anabolic hormone. It's involved in lipogenesis.

Not just carbs raise insulin levels, meat and dairy can too. But an insulin response is nothing to be scared of, its just part of normal carbohydrate metabolism, a signal to the cells to use the glucose.

>> So whatever carbs remain unutised gets converted to fats.

It can happen, if there are a lot unused carbs but it depends on a lot of factors. Carbs that are not needed immediately can get stored as glycogen upto the limit of the bodies glyogen stores, and there is some evidence that the metabolism can increase slightly to burn off are further excess. So its not neccessarily true than an excess must all get converted to fat. In any case, with low glycemic load complex carbs and plenty of fibre on a plant based diet this situation is unlikely to happen.

[suramo Star in reply to benwl]

>>Not just carbs raise insulin levels, meat and dairy can too. But an insulin response is nothing to be scared of.

Fats cause minimal insulin response. Protein far less than carbs. Ultimately it's carbs load that decides the amount of insulin needed.

Healthy fats like coconut oil and ghee / clarified butter which have lots of sct and mct can't be stored in the body are good. I too am a vegetarian, but not vegan. I reduced my weight by 10 kg and reduced my waist 2" after stopping carbs in forms of wheat, grains, rice, potatoes and sugar. I've been eating lots of ghee and coconut oil, along with olive oil. This i have been doing for last 20 months. At present, my 60-70%+ calorie requirements come from fats. I being a type 2 Diabetic, I feel more energetic and healthy with eating a lchf diet. And that too without doing any exercise including walking.

Ultimately, we have to be fit with a normal and healthy human body. Whatever suits our body is fine to eat.

[JAS9 in reply to suramo]

benwl's response to this point wasn't very good (sorry benwl) so here's a much better one (starting at time stamp 18:30): youtu.be/BnHYHjchn6w(Not working as expected?)

[benwl]

Thanks for watching the video. I forgot the x rays were not shown there, they are in the original paper here in pdf form:

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...

Esselstyn himself says in the paper: "Limitations of this study are its modest number of participants and lack of comparable controls."

But as he then points out, given the severity of the condition why not at least offer it to people "Even though many people might find a plant-based diet initially difficult to follow, every patient with the diagnosis of CAD should at least be offered the option of this potentially curative arrest and reversal approach".

I'd like to think that NICE in the UK are aware of these studies, they do recommend lifestyle modification and dietry changes as a heart disease management strategy, although not to the extent of Esselstyn.

[Penel]

It’s not possible to compel people to change their diet, the NHS can only advise on what to eat. Unfortunately it seems that most people in the U.K. eat very little in the way of vegetables at all.

It appears that it may be a useful diet for those people who have already got a diagnosis of CAD, but it’s not a universal cure. There are studies which have demonstrated that olive oil is good for heart health and that oily fish also have health benefits.

[benwl in reply to Penel]

When I compare Esselstyn's paper that demonstrates reversal from heart disease, with the olive oil papers than merely compare olive oil against other oils and show better outcomes I know which diet i want to follow.

[Penel in reply to benwl]

If I had CAD or was at risk of it, I would certainly try Esseltyn’s advice. My local surgery has a program to monitor potential heart problems etc, I don’t have any markers or family history, so I’ll eat as many veg as I can but I won’t be cutting out fat or oil.

[andyswarbs in reply to Penel]

Relying on short term studies is a very dangerous strategy in my opinion. And since most, if not all, of the "beneficial olive oil studies" are short term I would not rely on them alone. Please show me a long term study showing the benefits of olive oil.

[benwl in reply to andyswarbs]

It's not just the fact that these studies are short or long term, it's what the study is comparing the intervention too. For example consider a study that compares people on a standard diet with those on the same diet that supplements with olive oil. If the olive oil group shows better outcomes all we can really say is that olive oil is good IF you are following a standard diet.

It doesnt mean that a plant based diet without added oil might not be even better.

But it certainly muddies the waters, and may be one reason that the health authorities are reluctant to come out and recommend a plant based approach.

[Penel in reply to andyswarbs]

I guess I would point to the population around the Mediterranean as a long term study of the benefits of eating olive oil in conjunction with lots of veg etc.

It’s difficult to isolate a single element of a diet that confers particular benefits. One recent study had a look at the components of olive oil and its effects on health. They also felt that more long term studies were needed.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[Simba1992]

One thing we cannot attest however is that diet does matter. It can have a supportive effect for our metabolism and life functions but it can also jepordize our health when we are not understanding the situation of our own body, it's needs and dysfunctions. Understanding also what is the effect of a certain diet on cell meabolism on a biochemical level is essential before experimenting with diets. Here are some facts about low carb diet that few infact think about when plunging into diets restricting carbs.

functionalps.com/blog/2010/...

[suramo Star in reply to Simba1992]

>>functionalps.com/blog/2010/...

Carbs are energy sources. There are carnivorous people and animals who live healthy life.The article is too scary.Body physiology does change and there is strain on thyroid. That's why one need to check thyroid status before starting low carb diet.

Right glucose is the preferred fuel but ketones are more energy efficient. Body can use that too.Initially body may give some reactions but ultimately low carb diet works.And one need not be in a keto state continuously. One can switch between keto and nonketo states frequently.

[Simba1992 in reply to suramo]

If you are a healthy person, don't think there is any problem. There are many however with chronic illnesses that are looking to find cures in different diets without really knowing how this certain diet works on your body on a cellular level. To be on a too restrictive diet for a long time often spells trouble.

[Penel]

Absolutely agree happycook, but in my case I’ll go for a hunky husband. 😊

[suramo Star]

Is it what your eating now or not eating now thats helps with your health issues.

Yes. Even now it helps.

[andyswarbs]

happycook1, I find dairy and nighshade plants cause arthritic reactions, so I omit them.

I include a range of plants to cool the body including turmeric. Also lots of dark leafy greens help in my fight to keep my omega 3/6 ratio at 2 to 1. This is why oils are omitted, even extra virgin olive which, while high in o3 is not that high compared with o6, and if I glugged a pint a day my o3/6 ratio would just get worse.

[andyswarbs]

No I do not blame anything and everything for my arthritis. Having not eaten either fish or meat for the last 40 years blaming them directly would seem silly. However I do blame my arthritis on dairy which I continued to consume.

Also based on the anecdotes I have read across the web dairy is a trigger that other people have very frequently identified also.

Of course what actually causes an illness in a particular case (including mine) is almost beyond current medical knowledge, and I guess will be true forever. This is why we rely on research to gauge to best approach based on minimising risks.

This is why I think a thorough bottom up elimination process is critical to finding out what foods continue to aggravate arthritis. In my case I was lucky enough to follow the Paddison Program which has arguably the most definitive elimination processes on the planet.

[Simba1992]

Who is on a vega diet?

[Simba1992]

It is a good question to Andy though😉What are his thoughts on the above facts and what does Clint Paddison say. These questions and facts must have come up many times.

[andyswarbs]

I don't view a vegan diet as restrictive. Most people who eat a vegan lifestyle eat a far wider range of foods than an omnivore. I guess my wholefoods cupboard has around 40 or 50 different foods in it for instance. For example I have around 7 or so different flours.

[suramo Star]

Certain food items we used to eat have comprised our health. If we stop eating that food now will improve / strengthen our health. Let me elaborate. Eating wheat causes pot belly,metabolic syndrome, gastric upset etc.Stopping wheat will get us rid of / reverse health. Also adding nuts and certain foods like coloured bell peppers,mushroom, flex seeds etc which we were not used to taking also will strengthen health.

[andyswarbs in reply to suramo]

If what you argue is true then societies that have relied on such foods as their staple diet for generations would see a proliferation of such illnesses. So I simply ask you to name one.

[suramo Star in reply to andyswarbs]

There are many examples where people migrated from their native lands to usa or europe and became diabetic or contracted many lifestyle diseases which were unknown to them while in native . But i don't remember. So change in the diet and lifestyle caused this. Even in usa since the people are eating processed foods they are becoming obese, diabetics and get metabolic syndrome.

[andyswarbs in reply to suramo]

Absolutely right suramo. This shows at the very least that genetics can only be a small part of the problem.

[suramo Star in reply to andyswarbs]

We have to think genes because it runs in families and generations. Also it explains why whole body organs / cells becomes resistant to insulin. Ir is the main cause following bad diet to cause diabetes and other lifestyle diseases.

[andyswarbs]

My own diet is very restrictive. I know what I can eat and if I deviate I risk paying for it over one or more days days with pain.

We differ on the efficacy of omnivore diets. I do not doubt they have a lot of nutrition in them. There is an increasing amount of research into ancestors suggesting a reliance on vegan lifestyles. Take for example that most tortuous career, the gladiator. You can watch the documentary on this at youtube.com/watch?v=12I8GzS...(Not working as expected?)