Is gluten soluble in alcohol?

[pretender]

Is gluten soluble in alcohol? i.e whiskey, gin, rum, vodka, brandy.

[barny]

malt wiskey it is in vodka rum you can have gin brandy and cheaper wiskey check labels on other drinks i always stick to gin realy

[Hidden]

Alcohol being distilled is Gluten free. So assumed it is safe. Hic.

[Lellymay in reply to Hidden]

Sorry, it needs to be distilled at least 3 times, American, Canadian and Scotch whisky affects me but not Irish Whiskey, this is triple distilled. Vodka is really bad if it is grain vodka but potato vodka is ok so you can have spirits but need to be careful.

[pretender]

The question was " is gluten soluble in alcohol", not if it is safe for coeliac's.

(able to be dissolved).

[caitnicheallaigh]

I don't understand the question. Are you asking if soaking gluten containing food in alcohol makes it gluten free?

Spirits even if made from wheat like Vodka are gluten free as the previous answer said because they are distilled.

[pretender in reply to caitnicheallaigh]

Distilled or not "Gluten Free" means "May contain up to 20ppm per kilo of finished product. One litre of alcohol may contain up to 20 ml of gluten.

[MrsPepperpot]

I presume this is an academic question or you have a laboratory style kitchen to experiment in.

I have a recollection from many years ago that plant proteins are soluble in alcohol but not water. Gluten could fall into this group but other questions follow such as what denatures it and would it render it as not gluten. Seems that gluten is not changed by baking, shame.

I think I would search in some scientific journals to get a reliable answer to this question.

[pretender]

Many alcoholic beverages are classed as gluten free but contain fragments/residual gluten. Gluten Free only means it may contain up to 20ppm of gluten per kilo of finished product.

There are few alcoholic beverages that are totally gluten free, these are branded alcohols.

[MrsPepperpot]

We often see ppm in posts and I am concerned about the accuracy and understanding of the term.

PPM means parts per million and needs to be described in like units for measures of dry weight, volume etc.

This is a useful link to a leaflet explaining ppm or ppb and includes

One milligram in a kg is 1

ppm (by mass). One liter (L)

of pure water at 4ºC and 1

standard atmosphere pressure

weighs exactly 1 kg, so 1 mg/L

is 1 ppm. Another way to say

it is a liter of water weighs

1,000 grams or 1 million mil-

ligrams. Therefore, 1 mg in 1

liter is l mg in 1 million mil-

ligrams or 1 part per million.

nesc.wvu.edu/ndwc/articles/...

please beware when making conversions for your self - 20ml per litre (1000ml) would be 20 parts per thousand and could have disastrous consequences. I am a bit hazy about unit names for volumes less than millilitre, I think it is a bit more understandable for weights.

[katethebake in reply to MrsPepperpot]

lovely answer and useful link, thank you!

[pretender]

I would have assumed that with metric weights and measures one kilo is equal to one litre in volumes. 20 ml equals 20 mililitres.

[MrsPepperpot]

Only for water - see above

*One liter (L)

of pure water at 4ºC and 1

standard atmosphere pressure

weighs exactly 1 kg

It is that precise and does not apply to other substances or conditions, and ml is only the abbreviation for millilitre, there are still only 1000 mls in one litre.

I have continued on this point because it is very easy to make errors either just human nature (we all do it) or by not understanding the relationships between different units. For that reason I think that the important fact for most coeliacs and those interested in gluten in the diet is whether a food or drink is safe for them to eat. Since what we are dealing with is usually something we can't see, indeed in something GF, 20mg in 1 litre would give 20ppm(approx). Even in a slice of wheat bread gluten would be so small, if it could be shown isolated on a spoon it would be a shock how little it looks.

We must trust those that are processing our food because we can't see what causes the damage. For those that are learning or facing new challenges with their diet our conversations need to be clear and unambiguous.

[pretender]

So if a litre = 1,000 units and a kilogram = 1,000 units what is the difference. Nothing to do with atmospherics it is based on measured units.

Whether a food or ingredient is safe to eat is really an individual choice and not always correct with advice. I for one a twice diagnosed with one confirmation cannot tolerate gluten of any description or an ingredient in gluten free foods that triggers my formaldehyde allergy.

The best description came I believe from Jerry, take 1,000,00 grains of sand remove 20 and that is the gluten content, liquid or solid, no difference.

Having had the horsemeat scare can we trust the food industry?

[MrsPepperpot]

Actually, a big difference.

Of course, Jerry has given an excellent interpretation - 20 grains of sand from I million grains of sand is 20ppm.

However, would you like a kilogram or a litre of gold? A litre of gold weighs over 19kg. Weight and volume are different measures, and the above ('atmospherics') is the globally accepted standard.

We can make choices but they should be informed. When we are under stress we are more likely to make choices without proper consideration.

[pretender]

The point you are missing is as said 1 litre equals 1,000 mililitres & 1 Kilogram equals 1,000 miligrams. it is the measured unit,

So you tell me how you distinquish the 20ppm in liquid and solids???

[MrsPepperpot]

Simple on one count 1 kilogram is 1 million milligrams - there are 1000 grams in a kilogram.

The state, that is solid, gas and liquid, is not the issue here. Volume is always the space occupied.

The question is how something is measured

Volume is the space occupied - so a litre is 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000millilitres, or a litre is 1million microlitres.

The weight/mass is how heavy something is, physics here. There are 1 million milligrams in one kilogram.

Unfortunately, often there is the assumption that weight and volume are equivalent but this is the case only for the standard conditions with water. If a substance is more or less dense than water it can only ever be an approximation. Back to gold - I would be more than happy with a litre of gold rather than a kilogram.

Answer

20ppm of 1 litre is 20 microlitres

or 20ppm of 1 kilogram is 20 milligrams

[pretender]

Thanks, it is good to still learn.

So if Gluten Free foods/beverages to be called Gluten Free must be 20ppm of finished product we know how much food to eat, 1 Kilo of finished product for 20ppm of gluten, what about alcohols/beverages again to be called gluten free how much would I need to drink to reach the 20ppm of gluten? For example whisky.

[MrsPepperpot]

This is not something I know much about but pure ethanol is colourless and would be distilled away the original mash and presumably not contain gluten. However, I know that whiskey is brown and think that is from using brown (peaty) water to dilute the alcohol and then put in new or old(dirty) wooden barrels to age. The barrels may have been used for storing and gluten containing substance but I think often something like sherry which is from grape. That's what gives it character.

Only the company who make and, I hope, have some kind of quality control can tell you the real answer.

Did peek on this website: - bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/w...

'Ethanol generates acetaldehyde, but when methanol is broken down, a major product is formaldehyde'

Seems that dark spirits can have methanol which breaks down to formaldehyde.

So perhaps in light of your formaldehyde allergy these dark spirits may cause you a problem. Actually, the wood might also give off formaldehyde into the spirit, I know there was a lot of concern with MDF and other composite woods/glues breathing formaldehyde into the air.

You're right, it's good to learn. Good evening.

[pretender]

This does not actually answer the question of how distilled spirits can be measured by 20ppm to be classed as "gluten free" , not that I touch dark spirits anymore since being diagnosed CD (2nd time) The website for health Scotland where this information can be found might make interesting reading for me.

[Hidden]

Sorry guys 5ppm so safe for me.

[pretender in reply to Hidden]

Hi Roscoe, I ask many questions because I do not understand my CD.

Having been removed from the diet (wheat in those days) I joined the Royal Navy in 1965. In 1969/70 I found myself on exercise I believe of the Island of Corrigidor (philipines I believe) where on manoeuvres the aircarrier HMAS Melbourne sailed into the USS Frank. E. Evans slicing it into two. The front section sank and thje stern remained afloat, HMAS Melbourne was repaired in Singapore dockyard. Made in England as I recall was painted on her stern while in Singapore. From there we spent time in Cairns & Mackay where as part of my duties I would cook for a crew of 45 using flour ,eating what I cooked., also go ashore and consume schooners of beer.

Many aspects of my CD do not relate to what I read yet the tests say yes I am a coeliac which is for life.

If you know about this incident you will know I am genuine.

[MrsPepperpot]

I don't really think there is an answer that will fit all spirits. Certainly they are not pure alcohol so must have other ingredients, mostly water.

If manufacturers thought it was an advantage to them they may sample and put values for microcomposition of their product. It would be expensive.

Then there are all the other variables such as mixers and contamination of glass etc.

[pretender in reply to MrsPepperpot]

Most distilled alcoholic beverages are made from grain alcohol, the addatives are there for flavour, ie vodka's and gin's. Residual peptides and gluten fragments may be found in them, it would be very interesting to know how alcohol can be declared as gluten free, sorry Roscoe in the UK 20ppm. How do they reach that conclusion?

A true free of gluten is Smirnoff Vodka with the red label which triple distilled and made from maize,corn.

[MrsPepperpot in reply to pretender]

The wealthy drinks manufacturers will have smart machines to sample their product and analyse it, then tell us minute amounts of stuff in their drinks. In laymans terms believing that gluten is soluble in alcohol and not in water, and that alcoholic drinks are a mixture of water and alcohol it is impossible to guess. Since both water and alcohol are both colourless and most striking in Vodka, especially Smirnoff, there may be implied purity. Smirnoff make their claim and are financially rewarded for the purity of their product.

Now the brown liquors, they are often aged in a 'natural' way to develop their character and to be GF (EU) must have less than 20ppm in one litre. The gluten would be the sum of milligrams of tiny particles of gluten suspended in the liquor and gluten dissolved by the alcohol in the liquor. As we know 20ppm is a minute amount in our minds but not so in our guts.

Going back to the article mentioning congeners and that the coeliac is a sensitive animal, it seems logical that purity is a safer bet to avoid both gluten and other irritant substances. As to claims we have to trust the people putting information on their label.

[Hidden]

Hi Pretender I never for one moment thought you wern't genuine. As for the statement about coeliac for life we all are in the same boat.

I was in Ireland a few years ago and as normal went to many whisky distillers. As usual my question was is it gluten free. Without exceptional all stated yes.

From the coeliac society bible from Australia. "Distilled spirits for people following a gluten free diet. Although spirits may be produced wheat, rye or barley, they undergo a distillation process that ensures protein (gluten) is not carried over to the final product."

Beer, ales, stout are not distilled so therefore are not suitable for a gluten free diet.

I know this is not the answer to your question, but I hope it helps.

[pretender]

Don't forget Roscoe here in Europe "Gluten Free" means maybe up to 20ppm which may cover the carry over of any fragments/proteins etc. it can be worked out for foods how to get 20ppm but still await an answer for liquids. Until such time I know what they are made from so no attempt to find my coeliac limit with consumption.

Still no explanation why the "Safe level" was lowered from 200ppm to 20ppm, many coeliac's just seem to be following the "GF" banner and yet to see one product labelled "very low gluten".

[MrsPepperpot in reply to pretender]

I expect that the guys with the smart machine can get values for gluten dissolved in alcohol.

Difficult bit is how to ask the right person and that they are prepared to give an answer.

[pretender in reply to MrsPepperpot]

From what I understand you can detect gluten in foods as far as 10ppm but there is very little available information how any liquid can be classed as Gluten Free ie 20ppm or less.

I have contacted manufacturers and most will not respond, distillation is no excuse if gluten is in the finished product. This is why my diet I call a coeliac diet which is based on ingredient origin knowledge not the GF indication.

[MrsPepperpot in reply to pretender]

I think it is wise that we know what is in our diet and agree with eating only the ingredients that are naturally gluten free. It's time we believe that it is weird to make foods like something else. Then there would be less shocks, such as, when cow turns into horse.

As for measuring how much of a substance is in something I would love to have the chance to visit a laboratory that undertakes this kind of work. I'm sure it is more sensitive than values we see on products. Something to put on my life 'to do' list.

[pretender]

If this is read then it can be seen that the detection method is suspect also most EFSA opinions are dated 2004, progress has not been made by the Scientific panel in coeliacs interest, purely the manufacturer's:

efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajourn...

[Hidden]

I still like my whisky and villi is coping quite well. Liver well you only live once.

[pretender in reply to Hidden]

I used to enjoy whisky not touched it since second diagnosis though. Having had sweats with wheat and gluten in with no ill effects I am considering turning the clock back to 1962 and see how things pan out. My liver is fine but prefer it on a plate with onions. Enjoy your whisky Roscoe.

[Hidden]

I still like my whisky and villi is coping quite well. Liver well you only live once.

[Mia1057]

I think there is an issue here in Australia gluten free means 3ppm for many of us who are following a GF diet we mean no gluten at all not even 20ppm. So some of the answers you are getting are consistent with those of us who are trying to exclude all gluten from our diets as we are affected even by the 20ppm. For many of us we have excluded any alcohol where the original base was grain based and only where we can be sure that there is no gluten so potato vodka, grape based distillates, etc.

[Hidden]

The answer is No and Yes :

Gluten is commonly held to contain two distinct proteins, glutenin and gliadin.

Glutenin is defined in current textbooks as insoluble in all neutral solvents, but soluble in dilute acid and alkali.

Gliadin is also defined as insoluble in neutral solvents, but is distinguishable from glutenin by its solubility in 60–80 per cent alcohol.

Source: nature.com/nature/journal/v...

There are more complex understandings which are unsuitable for this forum.

Anyone interested should visit friedli.com/research/PhD/gl...