Looks like even the covid vaccination has 2 sides to the story. (Rats. And just yesterday I had my 3rd booster.)

[MBAnderson]

IgG4 Antibodies Induced by Repeated Vaccination May Generate Immune Tolerance to the SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein

May 17

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/372...

Abstract

"Less than a year after the global emergence of the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2, a novel vaccine platform based on mRNA technology was introduced to the market. Globally, around 13.38 billion COVID-19 vaccine doses of diverse platforms have been administered. To date, 72.3% of the total population has been injected at least once with a COVID-19 vaccine. As the immunity provided by these vaccines rapidly wanes, their ability to prevent hospitalization and severe disease in individuals with comorbidities has recently been questioned, and increasing evidence has shown that, as with many other vaccines, they do not produce sterilizing immunity, allowing people to suffer frequent re-infections. Additionally, recent investigations have found abnormally high levels of IgG4 in people who were administered two or more injections of the mRNA vaccines. HIV, Malaria, and Pertussis vaccines have also been reported to induce higher-than-normal IgG4 synthesis. Overall, there are three critical factors determining the class switch to IgG4 antibodies: excessive antigen concentration, repeated vaccination, and the type of vaccine used. It has been suggested that an increase in IgG4 levels could have a protecting role by preventing immune over-activation, similar to that occurring during successful allergen-specific immunotherapy by inhibiting IgE-induced effects. However, emerging evidence suggests that the reported increase in IgG4 levels detected after repeated vaccination with the mRNA vaccines may not be a protective mechanism; rather, it constitutes an immune tolerance mechanism to the spike protein that could promote unopposed SARS-CoV2 infection and replication by suppressing natural antiviral responses. Increased IgG4 synthesis due to repeated mRNA vaccination with high antigen concentrations may also cause autoimmune diseases, and promote cancer growth and autoimmune myocarditis in susceptible individuals."

[MBAnderson]

It seems as though every single thing we/I think is right, there is compelling evidence it is wrong.

[gomelgo in reply to MBAnderson]

It takes humility to admit that. I appreciate you for doing so. It also takes humility to do any kind of science because that is what science IS, a willingness to investigate, in order to be proven wrong. Also, not everything is always "right" or always "wrong". There are gray areas even in science truth and medicine.

[WinnieThePoo in reply to MBAnderson]

I think there is compelling evidence that complicated subjects, beyond true understanding by most outside the field of expertise can be easily misinterpreted.

There are some naughty interpretations of facts in the article you quote, which make me wonder whether there is an agenda. For example

" Specifically, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) in the United Kingdom has reported that from April to mid-November 2021, deaths in unvaccinated people were higher in comparison with vaccinated people who had received a second vaccine dose. However, from the end of November 2021 to December 2022, this situation reverted: deaths were higher in vaccinated people who received a third vaccine dose compared with the unvaccinated"

When you read the spreadsheet, the deaths in question are all deaths, not necessarily covid deaths. Let's just take one of those months. November 2021.

Deaths unvaccinated 2473. 3rd dose or booster at least 21 days ago 11186 (less than 21 days ago 4674, total 3rd dose or booster 15860.)

Scary! You know what? There were more deaths from all causes that month in the USA than there were in Andorra. Just maybe, a group with more people in it, has more deaths than a group with a few people in it. How about we look at age-standardised mortality rate/100000 person-years (ie we compare the number of deaths with the number of people in the group available to die) Unvaccinated 1862.9 (Dec 2021 = 2087.7)

3rd dose <=21 days before 587.1 (Dec 2021 = 1037.8)

3rd dose >21 days before 705.4 (Dec 2021 = 856.4)

Ever vaccinated at all, even if only one dose 1073.8 (Dec2021 = 1130.6)

All that statistic proved was that most people had been vaccinated, so even if you just look at deaths from road traffic accidents, you're going to have more vaccinated people than unvaccinated

Lies, damn lies, and statistics

Which isn't to say that immunology , and covid vaccine strategies are not dynamic and evolving fields, where changes in strategy may be appropriate. But treat with caution any article making such fundamental errors (or deliberate distortions, depending on your perspective)

Try another one

science.org/doi/10.1126/sci...

[MBAnderson in reply to WinnieThePoo]

"All that statistic proved was that most people had been vaccinated, so even if you just look at deaths from road traffic accidents, you're going to have more vaccinated people than unvaccinated." Good catch Richard.

As I say below, "I am sticking with ... Covid boosters as the best science."

the reason is in this video

youtu.be/JgrMzvasrm8(Not working as expected?)

[chartist]

That news makes me glad I avoided them and went the alternative route instead. From my POV, in terms of Covid-19 treatment, the alternatives seem to offer comparable, if not better effects with minimal side effects.

Art

[MBAnderson in reply to chartist]

What was the "alternative route?"

[chartist in reply to MBAnderson]

The alternative route I chose was, melatonin, hesperidin colloidal silver spray and grapefruit seed extract nasal spray. Not as simple as taking an injection, but fairly effective for me with no side effects. I wrote about these on the forum except for hesperidin.

Art

[ssrs in reply to chartist]

Thank God, my husband listened to me, since there was so much controversy and confusion with this whole thing. We chose to go with Melatonin, vitamin D3, vitamin c, Zinc, and Quercetin. We also made sure to wash our hands and swab our noses with hydrogen peroxide whenever we went out in public. We never got sick and actually never had to use the PCR test which was proven ineffective anyway. Just my opinion but the less pharmaceuticals we use the better off we are.

[LindaP50]

Way above my comprehension!

[chartist in reply to LindaP50]

LindaP50,

The last two sentences are a pretty good summation of the potential end effects of the vaccines :

' However, emerging evidence suggests that the reported increase in IgG4 levels detected after repeated vaccination with the mRNA vaccines may not be a protective mechanism; rather, it constitutes an immune tolerance mechanism to the spike protein that could promote unopposed SARS-CoV2 infection and replication by suppressing natural antiviral responses. Increased IgG4 synthesis due to repeated mRNA vaccination with high antigen concentrations may also cause autoimmune diseases, and promote cancer growth and autoimmune myocarditis in susceptible individuals.'

In other words, it may actually have the opposite desired effect and actually promote the disease potential of Covid-19 in humans while also potentially increasing your chances for getting cancer, autoimmune diseases as well as autoimmune myocarditis, a dangerous inflammation of the heart. Moreover, autoimmune myocarditis often goes unnoticed and undiagnosed, which means you could be seriously unwell and not even know it. Overall, if correct, this would be a failing grade for the Covid-19 vaccines.

Interestingly, melatonin, besides being helpful for fending off Covid-19 symptoms and increasing survival, may also help with these unwanted side effects of the vaccines.

Art

[LindaP50 in reply to chartist]

Thanks for the interpretation. Much appreciated. Get it now.

Perhaps when the doc suggests again for hubby and me to get the Booster I'll present him/her (primary is a him and neurologist is a her) with this article.

Coincidentally, when I got the 2nd Booster the next day I had Covid. Hubby with PD got the booster and 2 days later got Covid so called the doc and got Paxlovid immediately. He had hardly any symptoms and I was fatigued with mild flu like symptoms for a few days.

Better get some Melatonin.

[chartist in reply to LindaP50]

Melatonin, imo, won't prevent it, but it can make it a lot milder.

Art

[LindaP50 in reply to chartist]

Yup, and Melatonin has other benefits.

[ssrs in reply to chartist]

Art,

I see that they removed your post from 7/13/23 about the 💉, I find that interesting for this page🤔

[MBAnderson in reply to LindaP50]

Not really. It just is saying, "...Repeated Vaccination May Generate Immune Tolerance..." That is, several boosters makes us more susceptible than we would otherwise be.

(it is just one study.)

[Sydney75 in reply to MBAnderson]

I tend to think the same 5% population that really struggled w Covid may develop vaccine induced problems, ie big rise in myocarditis in folks under 40. You are likely fine, idk if boosters are necessary, can't really keep up with covid mutations. Paxlovid very contraindicated for anyone on heart meds.

Astragulas herb is an assitional benefical immune boost.

[MBAnderson in reply to Sydney75]

I am sticking with intermittent fasting and Covid boosters as the best science

[Sydney75 in reply to MBAnderson]

Wish I could get my husband to fast! His parent immigrant Italians and fabulous cooking. He sure loves to eat. I actually lock the cabinets and fridge at night.

[Gioc in reply to MBAnderson]

I've never seen something more anti-scientific than vaccinating a person who recovered from the first covid 19, a PD patient , required by law 6 months after recovery.

So science and anti-science, business politics and propaganda , care and prevention, all these things are mixed as they always have been.

So I no longer believe in anyone, we navigate on sight, that is, on a case-by-case basis.

[LindaP50 in reply to MBAnderson]

Thanks. True, just one study. The Vaccines and Booster shots are why we are still here. A good friend didn't trust the Vaccines and she and hubby who were both "healthy" did not get the Vaccines. Both got very sick and hospitalized. He died, she survived and now has to live with the decision they made and the loss of her loved one. Just horrible.

My hubby is now 83 1/2 and during Covid I more or less kept him in a bubble.

[gomelgo in reply to LindaP50]

Not so black and white from what I understand. The way I heard it was that if you got sick and were hospitalized during the first year or so, you were put on a ventilator as the primary strategy .... which is what actually killed many people.

[redhawk1]

Had my second booster (the most recent rendition of the Covid vaccine) last September. Subsequently, four months later in February contracted Covid for my first time. On the second day after testing positive I started Paxlovid treatment. Within three days most symptoms except nose stuffiness were resolved. According to my Doc most current Covid infections have been less difficult. But, yes, also wondering if it makes sense to get the next Covid shot.

[Isthistheone]

Hi MBA, I deeply appreciate all that you bring to the table. It took me 3 years to find you. I'm convinced I would be in better shape if..... You and PB can take down and take apart the most esoteric subjects ever. Yes esoteric a word I once used in 10th grade composition. It also helped my teacher lived 2 short blocks away -- I wouldn't take any money for shoveling her sidewalk!

Let me get back on track. I don't think I had any complications from any of my COVID shots. I did take Shingles vaccine (1 shot) two years ago, but still got that painful bugger last December. I listened to Dr Faucci, a man who has spent 40 + years studying viruses has to know what's going on!! Vaccines weren't for everyone. It was your choice.

Wherever this discussion goes remember there were enough people sounding the alarm for change. Too bad no one was listening.

I took the medical advice and got vaccinated and was boosterred 3 times. I was high risk 70 years young and a PWP. Worldwide people were dying by the thousands hourly. Ventilators were nowheres to be found. Our medical professionals barely held it together. Our immunolgists said we can't rush vaccination science but we had to.

Have you ever seen a wet market? How they can exist defies mankind's intelligence. Thousands of animals mostly dead are publicly sold under the most unsanitary conditions. All wasted animal parts are tossed. You couldn't make a better breeding ground for bacteria and viruses. Don't forget that there are dozens, maybe hundreds of different land /water species available for purchase and consumption from bats/rats to turtles and everything in between. Accredited studies suggest Wuhan China markets as the epicenter of COVID 19. The World Health Organization (WHO) had sounded the alarm before being muzzled by weak world politicos claiming the evidence wasn't there. Remember those early days, pre Pandemic on the nightly news? The Chinese government, not the Chinese people, were saying there was no containment breach of a virulent virus found in one of their Wutan wet markets. The Chinese government, not the Chinese people, declined any and all assistance. When I saw videos of the 1st responders I knew right away this was serious. They were fully suited no bare skin anywhere, all wore respirators and every one was fully gloved. Their movements were coordinated, this was the A Team.

COVID has killed almost 7 million globally including 1.2 million in the US as reported by WHO. We have the technology to stop the next wet market epidemic. Do we have the will?

[gomelgo in reply to Isthistheone]

Those markets must be shut down. It's an apt description to say that they defy our intelligence. The thing is, it also defies our intelligence to ignore that the lab that was specifically working on SARs diseases was right next door, and couldn't possibly have been the issue .... in China where wet markets are also acceptable.

[Isthistheone in reply to gomelgo]

Hey Mel so right you are. What else was going on there? There's a reason why the Chinese government located their research center in Wutan. The smoking gun, candle stick, wrench and lead pipe have been there for years. The Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 was far deadlier than COVID 19. Lasting about 2 years it killed between 20 -100 million, The deadliest pandemic on record is Black Death, also known as the Bubonic Plague, that raged from 1346-53 killed 50-100 million.

Mel I can't say we dodged a bullet. We still said goodbye to over 7 million. We were lucky we didn't lose more.

[Toad88]

”Just one study,” but it cites 166 references. That’s a pretty comprehensive survey of the literature.

[MBAnderson in reply to Toad88]

But not all 166 studies draw the same conclusion. How many others draw the opposite conclusions?

For example, the 5th reference down (I selected randomly.)

"The effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines in reducing the incidence, hospitalization, and mortality from COVID-19: A systematic review and meta-analysis"

"Conclusion: The results of this meta-analysis indicated that vaccination against COVID-19 with BNT162b2 mRNA, mRNA-1273, and ChAdOx1, and also their combination, was associated with a favorable effectiveness against SARS-CoV2 incidence rate, hospitalization, and mortality rate in the first and second doses in different populations. We suggest that to prevent the severe form of the disease in the future, and, in particular, in the coming epidemic picks, vaccination could be the best strategy to prevent the severe form of the disease."

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/360...

I think the number of studies that support vaccinations far out number those against.

[gomelgo in reply to MBAnderson]

Have you considered the reasons this might be the case? There has been systematic silencing of anyone who messes with anyone's profit margins. ALso, have you considered that some of the data within the other studies may not necessarily agree with the outcomes of those studies?

[Isthistheone in reply to MBAnderson]

Nice review MBA. Everyone knew we were flying so low, that crash and burn odds were at least 50 %. With rare exceptions, COVID shots were not mandatory.

[ElliotGreen in reply to Isthistheone]

There certainly was a heck of a lot of coercion. As I understand it, non-citizens STILL need proof of vaccination to enter the good old USA.

[Gioc in reply to ElliotGreen]

maybe the vaccines aren't ready for the next variant and they defend themselves like this 🙅🏻🤷🏻

Link:

who.int/docs/default-source...

ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-e... to be considered in autumn vaccination campaigns

Timely vaccination ahead of a potential autumn and winter 2023 surge of COVID-19 cases is essential for protecting people from severe COVID-19 and health systems from being overwhelmed.

National authorities in the EU make final decisions on the roll-out of vaccines, including revaccinations, and on type of vaccines recommended, considering factors such as the epidemiological situation, the impact of COVID-19 in different population groups and the emergence of new variants."

adnkronos.com/covid-e-varia...

Imo they realized that vaccines don't keep up with the variants.

[MBAnderson]

I posted this study to illustrate the point that we can find studies in conflict with every aspect of our health.

I continue to believe Covid vaccinations and the boosters are a good thing.

However, I understand and respect the opposite position.

[ElliotGreen in reply to MBAnderson]

The more doses of Covid vaccination that people received, the higher their incidence of Covid infection. This is according to a recent peer-reviewed study of 51,017 people.

Over a six-month period, people who had received three vaccinations were infected with Covid 2.6 times as often as unvaccinated people.

Check out this striking figure (Figure 2) from the paper.

imgur.com/gallery/FbFQfVc

Here is a link to the paper itself.

academic.oup.com/ofid/artic...

Why is this?

One possibility is that mRNA vaccination induces immune tolerance, via the class switch to IgG4 antibodies described in the paper linked to above.

Another possibility is immune imprinting (Original Antigenic Sin), in which the immune system is primed to produce antibodies to an outdated variant, instead of producing antibodies to the current variant.

[Toad88]

Thank you for your response - points well taken.

Incidentally, I am fully vaccinated, attempting intermittent fasting (13 hrs so far), and still wearing a mask in public. I have not had COVID. I'm following the science like you are.

[How can one paper meaningfully use 166 citations, anyway?]

[Sydney75 in reply to Toad88]

Remember that same science cannot determine what is a biological woman.

[MarionP]

Wow. Very important. Needs to follow up with significant investigation efforts in the field.

You deserve a very big thank you!

[Isthistheone in reply to MarionP]

Hi Marion, hope you are doing well. Who gets the big thank you, Sydney or MBA ?

[MBAnderson in reply to Isthistheone]

I think she was being sarcastic. Doesn’t sound like the real her.

[MarionP in reply to MBAnderson]

No that was not sarcasm (but thanks for noticing! Yes, sarcasm is often my reaction to stupidity, which I very often encounter online... I have often been told I do not react well to BS, thus probably a good thing I never went into politics cuz I would have failed for that reason). I just like science so much sometimes I get caught up in the enthusiasm for confirmation by phenomena that in general confirms significant but subtle principles established a long time ago, such as this one which was first demonstrated and established in the late 1970s. For better description see my response above to "is this the one."

But in case anybody did take it that way, as sarcasm, the results talked about in the study were infinitesimally dwarfed in proportion to the immense value of the immunizations to the world. Nobody needs to die or suffer the financial consequences of covid or terrible effects of long covid, nor should economies societies and families be so very much harmed as they have been, I just found it fascinating and going in line with what we know scientifically about mechanisms in general... See my reply to "is this the one".

For instance this is exactly what happens when a fetus is exposed to cannabinoids in utero, and every known addictive process, including the good side (such as "positive" addictions). In other words, very possible.

[Isthistheone in reply to MarionP]

Now that's the Marion I know! You had me worried!

[MarionP in reply to Isthistheone]

Some misanthropic clown named MB Anderson (hi there mba, does this sound more like me?) The principles involved in the point of the article are legitimate scientific possibilities. Many mechanisms and processes, to the point of structural changes as well as functional changes, in human neurobiology include up- and down-regulation via feedback loops. Generally referred to "tolerance" "adaptation," "sensitization/desensitization" and some additional term but somebody making noise interrupted my train of thought. Oh yes, "rebound reaction."

[MBAnderson in reply to MarionP]

Yes, now that's more like your old self, (but it all went over my head.)

"...misanthropic..." You are not projecting, are you? I LUV people.

[MarionP in reply to MBAnderson]

Say you have a long nasal congestion. Use a nasal spray, works astonishingly well, but then it's time to have some more, and you cycle with this say for several days... And then see on the label that maybe it has gone on a bit too much or for a bit too long...a bit too often or for a bit too long... then suddenly, no amount is enough, now it doesn't even work, and what's worse, the congestion is even worse than when you started, really packed in and tremendously suffering, way more miserable than originally even...and now you are stuck and really suffering and it takes a long time to float back to normal, a long time, long long time. That's called a rebound reaction and that's what I'm talking about. And that's also with the article is about.

[Isthistheone in reply to MBAnderson]

You guys are always worth the read. MBA, old self fits much better than mature self. LOL !

[Isthistheone in reply to MarionP]

Marion I didn't mean anything by that comment and i am sorry I offended anyone

[MarionP in reply to Isthistheone]

Offended? Not me I thought it was funny

[Isthistheone in reply to MarionP]

So did I Marion, so did i!

[gomelgo]

Good find! I will be sharing this too. Many of us have suspected this from the start. It's good that it's being published in pubmed. Many have warned of this from the start, including one of the inventors of the technology (!) and been shut down and censored for speaking up. It's a shame that group think is so easy for us humans.

[MarionP in reply to gomelgo]

I wouldn't hit the ceiling jumping around about it. At this point, proportionally, it would be too much like the pack rat dropping a dingy gold coin in exchange for finding a shiny penny. Far better to have a few, potential symptoms of malaise compared to the fairly well-established, reliable symptom of being dead. (There, Anderson, is that more like it?)

Book title, "Clearing the Fog" at least read a few free reviews or listen to the in-depth NPR "Fresh Air" author interview in the last fiew weeks, you can listen to the free podcast.

[kaypeeoh]

Many topics deteriorate into idiocy if they last long enough and I try not to join in. But this statement, ".....may also cause autoimmune diseases, and promote cancer growth and autoimmune myocarditis..." seems to go over the edge. The Tai Chi class at Hartford Health finally quit checking temperatures last week. That suggests it's time to quit whining about IgG4 antibodies.