12 Dopamine Supplements to Boost Your Moo... - Cure Parkinson's
12 Dopamine Supplements to Boost Your Mood -- Healthline
Nicely organized article, thank you for posting it.
I agree. Thanks for posting Marc
Note, if someone is taking L/C in meds, one could overdose on L-dopa with too much Mucuna Pruriens (velvet beans). The same is true with fava beans.
Agree. There are lots of reoccurring discussions on HU about how mix Mucuna with levodopa.
The section on MP was poor, implying some mysterious ability to help PD as effectively as conventional medication. There's no mystery. They both contain exactly the same chemical called levadopa. And the brain doesn't need it to make dopamine. It is capable of conversion into dopamine in the brain (providing it hasn't been converted into dopamine in the body before it gets to the brain
"... as effective..." But, I thought MP acts faster, last longer, and with the lower frequency of dyskinesia??
Since they both contain the same levodopa, do you think it possible that there is some synergy between the 400 other compounds in MP causes it to be more effective (than carbidopa)?
I think it's possible. But i think it also possible that there is an expectation effect from the alternative faithful.
Which reliable clinical trial caused your thought?
American Parkinson Disease Association
apdaparkinson.org/article/m...
The final word; The Science of Parkinson's -- Simon stott
"Interestingly, the low dose of Mucuna pruriens showed similar motor response with fewer dyskinesias than normal L-dopa treatment, while the high dose of Mucuna pruriens provided an even greater improvement in motor features at 90 and 180 minutes, resulting in a longer ON period with less dyskinesias. In addition, the high dose of Mucuna pruriens resulted in less complications when compared with normal L-dopa treatment (both with and without dopa-decarboxylase inhibitors)."
apdaparkinson.org/article/m...
We drew different conclusions from the same apda article (you linked the same article twice, and no link to Simons commentary).
<<Tips and takeaways
Mucuna pruriens is a legume which contains levodopa.
Although, mucuna pruriens can help reduce the motor symptoms of PD like any source of levodopa, the amount of levodopa in a supply of mucuna pruriens is unreliable and unregulated.
As with any “natural” remedy, it is important always to investigate and learn more before deciding if it is right for you. The claims sometimes made about alternative and natural remedies are often not as simple and clear as they seem to be.>>
I found this SOPD article which I skimmed
scienceofparkinsons.com/201...
It's emphasis is on MP as an affordable source of levadopa in 3rd world countries
It contains the following
<<When Guggenheim ingested the Vicia faba beans (also known as the broad bean or fava bean), the L-dopa in the beans was converted into dopamine immediately. This causes gastrointestinal side-effects which results in the feeling of nausea (quite often when folks first start taking Levodopa treatment for Parkinson’s disease they will experience some of these feelings as the right dose is determined). This is why most L-dopa treatments for Parkinson’s disease are a combination of L-dopa and a drug that blocks the enzyme DOPA decarboxylase outside of the brain. These DOPA decarboxylase inhibitors (such as carbidopa) do not cross the blood-brain-barrier, which is a protective film covering the entire brain.
Interesting side note: the name ‘Sinemet’ (a commercially available form of L-dopa and the DOPA decarboxylase inhibitor Carbidopa) is derived from the Latin words sine and ēmittō, meaning “without discharge (or vomit)”>>
If we take the 2004 study, it had 8 participants (9 originally, one dropped out due to nausea on the 30g dose). Steady PD (Isradipine) had 99 participants in the phase 2 trial whose results were so promising that 10's of millions of dollars were spent on steady PDIII - which with 300 participants over 3 years concluded no benefit.
The study summary states 8 patients were "randomised" to receive 200mg L/C AND either 15 or 30g MP. So the equivalent of 500mg L or 1000mg L. Did anyone try as a control comparing 200mg L/C v 1000mg L? The MP doses were calculated to be equivalent to 100mg or 200mg L/C . Over a 3 week period all 8 received all 3 variations as a single dose experiment.
So what have we shown? Large doses of pure levadopa act differently from broadly equivalent doses of C/L (200mg C/L would probably be expected to be the equivalent of 1000mg pure levadopa). It happens that the high dose pure levadopa was sourced from a plant, but there is nothing to contradict the same result with chemically identical manufactured levadopa.
This reply is already too long, but there is no rigorous scientific case for MP being different from medication levadopa. The reported differences are broadly consistent with the known effects of levadopa and decarboxylase inhibitor like carbidopa. That doesnt rule out the possibility that other substances in MP have an effect which is why my answer to your question was "I think its possible". But there are plenty of other possibilities.
Winnie,
Sorry about the wrong link. You found the right S of PD blog.
I have a couple thoughts about your reply.
First, admittedly the data is thin, just like the data for high dose thiamine is thin, but when added to the anecdotes and the negligible risk, apparently, a lot of people feel it's worth a try.
Have you noticed there are two cohorts on this forum? Those who won't act unless there is real scientific data and those more flexible who will try will stuff based on nothing but anecdotes.
'Weak science' adherence depends on where you stand.
Please don't misconstrue this. I agree with your analysis, but I think real scientific data is a lot easier to adhere to when you're a downhill skier, then when tucking in your shirt is an ordeal. When we get far enough along, you'll breathe into a paper bag if somebody tells you it provides them relief.
It explains why some people go to Mexico for stem cell therapy or follow lizards posing as health gurus and drink celery juice.
The quote above is Simon Stott's conclusion from the same study you critiqued - acts faster, last longer, from a lower dose, and with fewer problems.
Marc
The issue with that trial wasn't particularly the small sample size. The trial compared apples and pears. And I think its conclusions may be misinterpreted. In an attempt to compare an over the counter levadopa source with conventional pharmaceutical levadopa medication, it attempted to find an equivalent amount of pure levadopa in MP. The "problem" is that following the breakthrough in the 1960's where it was discovered levadopa could be more effectively delivered to the brain with a decarboxylase inhibitor, pharmaceutical companies only supply levadopa combined with an inhibitor. The effectiveness of that inhibitor will vary from individual to individual but the broad guide is roughly 5 times more of the ingested levadopa makes it to the brain
So the trial compared 200mg C/L - deemed equivalent to 1000mg levadopa, with 500mg levadopa from MP and 1000mg levadopa from MP. 500mg didn't make the grade. 1000mg turned out to be broadly equivalent but acted faster and caused less diskenesia. Interesting. 1000mg levadopa is clearly not directly equivalent to 50/200 LC. And 1000mg sourced from MP will be plus or minus 15%.
The implication drawn is that something else about MP makes a difference. Like drinking orange juice is not the same as popping a Vitamin C pill - even though the ascorbic acid in both is chemically identical. Even if you could find exactly the equivalent amount of vitamin C in a pill, to that in the glass of OJ. And it might be. It might have an effect on digestion and absorption.
BUT - it begs the obvious question as the next phase in research. What happens when we compare 50/250CL with 1000mg levadopa - and leave out the MP
The danger is that some people draw the conclusion that the levadopa in MP is in some way different to the levadopa in 50/200 CL. Chemically -not in dosage. That "natural" levadopa is safer. That conclusion IS drawn by many and is potentially dangerous. As evidenced by the MP supplements at 100% levadopa. If you extract pure levadopa from MP, if it is genuinely 100% and not some marketing fraud, it is 100% the same as the stuff in a C/L pill and will have 100% the same side effects in an equivalent dose.
I took 2 MP tablets this morning. They are a non-prescription source of low dosage levadopa therapy. It is not possible to buy 120mg pharmaceutical levadopa tablets. But I don't think the levadopa I am taking is different.
Simons "conclusion" was a reasonable precis of the limited available evidence of evaluating levadopa from MP. I think his articles key point was
<<Are any cheap alternatives available?
For many of the nations in the developing world, even the generic, off-patent drugs would be too expensive. Luckily, however, there are natural solutions which could be provided for little cost.>>
His "conclusion" should be read in the context of MP providing a cheaper alternative to pharma levadopa, rather than as a preferred, safer, risk free, "natural" option.
I think this is the important extract from his article, which re-makes my point
<<Can I take my prescribed L-dopa treatment AND mucuna pruriens?
Ok, so this is where I have to be careful. I could get myself in trouble here as I am not a clinician, and I should not be giving any advice on this site. In addition, there is very little research addressing this question (certainly no long term studies). So, with that said: If I had PD I would definitely NOT be supplementing my normal L-dopa treatment regime with any supplements that contain mucuna pruriens extract (certainly not without discussing it with my clinician first).
This is for one simple reason: high levels of L-dopa (in the lab at least) does bring on abnormal involuntary movements (or dyskinesias) a lot quicker than low levels of L-dopa.
Supplementation of normal L-dopa treatment regimes with mucuna pruriens could significantly increase the level of L-dopa that the body is receiving, raising the risk of developing side effects like dyskinesias. While the short term benefits may be pleasing, the long term picture could be more troublesome as a result of this approach.>>
Thanks for the thorough reply. Good explanation. I agree with it all.
I have made the point probably a dozen times that levodopa from MP is not better than levodopa from C/L, thereby making the levodopa the least important part of the plant and that I do not understand why people would want to combine the two because the dose is so often unknowable.
The only other point I make is that people in more advanced stages are less hung up on legitimate data as a criteria for trying various therapies. If there is a chance something might provide relief, and the risk are tolerable, legitimate data is of little interest to me.
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