Thiamine versus Manitol

[ion_ion]

Which of these is better? B1 helped me a lot but I never tried manitol. Is manitol helping reducing the tremor? What other symptoms improves?

[danfitz]

This is not an either/or circumstance. Thiamine and mannitol have different, but complimentary effects. Both can, and probably should be taken together.

[Xenos in reply to danfitz]

I do think the same. I am taking mannitol at the CliniCrowd recommended dose for me (10 g / day ), along with thiamine hcl injection - trying in the latter case to find out the right dose.

[JANVAN in reply to Xenos]

Hi Xenos !! And how are you doing ?? Symptom relief ??

I am now recovering after a heavy infusion yesterday to get ritt of the toxins...

Because that also plays a part in the disease......

The doctor gave me a double dose Alpha-Lipon-acid, because of the good reaction on

the last infusion......but that now was definitely to much.......vomiting ,dizziness, the whole circus......Nevertheless slept very well and now just a bit tired (and of course the

"always there" stiffness on the right site).......

[Xenos in reply to JANVAN]

Hi Janvan

Mannitol did not bring me spectacular relief. I still take it because the seminal paper by Dr Segal shows that it could stop toxic alpha-synuclein being produced, hence stopping the disease in its tracks. Only time will tell.

Thiamine is a different story. It looks as if I was overdosing (at 2x100 mg injections per week). Dr Costantini suggested me to first wash out during 2 weeks and then to have only 3 injections per month.

[AmyLindy in reply to Xenos]

How many tsp/d of Mannitol? 3 tsp=1 Tblsp ; so roughly a TB/d of Mannitol?

[Xenos in reply to AmyLindy]

I use a precision scale, and take mannitol in either coffee or applesauce.

[AmyLindy in reply to Xenos]

I take 4 gm/d Thiamin tablet form. If it comes as injectable, I wonder what that amounts to and what dosage u take as injectable ? Who is prescribing it? TY

[Hidden in reply to AmyLindy]

AmyLindy,

On the thiamine FAQ page, Look at Q&A #1. It will answer your questions.

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

Dr. Costantini uses the intramuscular injection as his standard procedure. In Viterbo he only uses pills or capsules as an alternative to the IM injections which are done twice a week (usually).

Art

[AmyLindy in reply to Hidden]

I’ve just begun injecting Glutathione so if B1 is effective at the right doses orally, I’ll stick to that. Glad to know of Dr C’s option for injection and dosage. Y’all are super with the research articles GIO, Sunovox , Art...

[Xenos in reply to AmyLindy]

It depends on the patient. 2x100mg injections is the norm.

One of my close friends is also my GP and he trusts me. He first checked if high dosage of B1 was hazardous, and gave me the prescription for the vials.

The 500 mg pills are non-prescription drugs.

[sunvox in reply to AmyLindy]

There was a study conducted in 2012 that looked into this question. The study concluded that oral thiamine hcl could achieve the same serum levels as injections, but the study also noted that other research has been less conclusive:

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Pharmacokinetics of High-dose Oral Thiamine Hydrochloride in Healthy Subjects

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"Thiamine hydrochloride has been estimated to have a bioavailability between 3.7% and 5.3% [21,30]. However, it is not clear that these thiamine derivatives are needed. First, tissue uptake is highly variable across different tissues and different derivatives [12]. Second, oral thiamine hydrochloride when given over a 1-week period produce blood levels that approach those obtained by intramuscular and intravenous administration."

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dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/...

[Gioc in reply to sunvox]

This is the study Joe?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/335...

[sunvox in reply to Gioc]

No that's not the one Gio. If the link I provided isn't working try this one:

dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/1...

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the article has the title I posted above:

Pharmacokinetics of High-dose Oral Thiamine Hydrochloride in Healthy Subjects

[Gioc in reply to sunvox]

yes, but this is referred to as

"Second, oral thiamine hydrochloride when given over a 1-week period produces blood levels that approach those obtained by intramuscular and intravenous administration [31,32].

In the first study [31] we talk about 250 mg of oral daily thiamine against the same dose ie 250 mg of thiamine daily, intramuscular injection, both for 5 days. I do 2 injections of 100mg a week and occasionally jump a week without side effects for three years and I take them in Germany without a prescription.

“31. Baines M, Bligh JG, Madden JS: Tissue thiamin levels of hospitalized alcoholics before and after oral or parenteral vitamins. Alcohol Alcohol 1988, 23: 49-52.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/335...

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“32. Royer-Morrot MJ, Zhiri A, Paille F, Royer RJ: Plasma thiamine concentrations after intramuscular and oral multiple dosage regimens in healthy men. Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1992, 42: 219- "

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/161...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/335...

[sunvox in reply to Gioc]

Morning Gio-

I'm unclear what point your are trying to make? Are you saying intra-muscular injections reach higher levels of thiamine in the blood?

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If that is true I would say that the studies you quote are incomplete not to mention they are from 1988 and '92. More importantly the recent study I linked showed the same results. The main difference is that the recent study to which I linked showed that by taking a higher oral dose it is possible to achieve the same blood thiamine levels of a lower intra-muscular dose. I think it would be obvious that gram for gram an intra-muscular injection will raise thiamine levels in the blood faster and higher, but that was not the point of the study. Amongst other conclusions the study showed oral thiamine can achieve the same levels as intra-muscular; one simply needs to take a higher dose orally daily rather than intra-muscularly less than daily.

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If that was not your point, my apologies.

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Joe

[Hidden in reply to sunvox]

Joe and Gio

It’s important to differentiate IV from intramuscular injections.

Also there appears to be quite a few buffer stores in the system and two cellular transport processes simple diffusion and selective active transport

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

The situation changes with “high doses”, most studies are on lower doses. There appears to be a cutover at an oral dose of 1500 milligrams

[Gioc in reply to Hidden]

Hi Retry

This research contains many interesting references on oral doses.

It seems to me that you had also published it.

I never used I.V. injections.

[Gioc in reply to Hidden]

As you see I am on another problem: I no longer wonder if Thiamine works because at the moment I have no doubts,

but will last forever without collateral damage. I'm pretty quiet after three years.

Gio

[Gioc in reply to sunvox]

Hi Joe , I apologise for being unclear.

The searches that I quote can be found at point [31] and [32] at the end in the search references that you quoted in the pdf version in your previous post.

PAG.8 and PAG.9.

dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/...

They are quoted as a reference and it was the only point that I found that speaks of injections of thiamine.

I went to read these points just to see what kind of injections and what doses were referred to because I was interested in using them.

Thank you because it was very helpful for me to understand that 2 injections per week of 100 mg is not really a very high dose compared to 250 mg of thiamine injections per day, every day as described in these researches.

Gio

[Hidden in reply to Gioc]

Gio

The issue with oral dosing is that Thiamine doesn’t stay in the plasma for long. Presumably there is an acceptable limit. So it has to be removed into blood cells, liver and brain

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Contd the kidneys excrete it and some appears in the sweat...

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

The key issue is this... How fast does an IM dose move out into the blood? Clearly fairly slowly and presumably in balance with the take up from the blood. IM therefore behaves more like continuous low dose oral.....

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

All the above assumes that the deficiency has been made up by the initial shock dose . This initial dose gate crashes the uptake processes until the buffers are full and then the excess is excreted and homeostasis is restored

[Gioc in reply to Hidden]

hi Retry

That is very interesting , good considerations.

After various injections and use of thiamine I have tried in time also the Solgar tablets, but nothing works so pleasantly well as an intramuscular injection.

Even the administration is much easier and more practical, although it would not seem. It's a pity that we need a medical prescription in Italy too.

In my pratical opinion, trying to simulate the effect of injections with oral administration may present some problems, how you said, but it work also.

Gio

[Gioc in reply to Hidden]

I Retry,

What you say here seems very real to me, because I noticed that with the pills I had a peak dose that gave me a remarkable excitability in the light, ie the headlights blinded me, while with the injections I did not have this disorder. My wife who uses the same thing for an eye problem and is therefore more sensitive had to stop taking the pills and go to the I.M. for the same reason.

Gio

[20fatcats]

Both are very good. The mannitol I have been taking the longest and virtually 90 % improvement in tremor though i didnt have a real bad tremor. Was just right hand . The b1 has been great. My pull test is normal now!