Does reducing blood sugar help?

[Research123]

I am wondering what happens if cll patients just eat foods that cut out sugar spikes? Does that help? I see lots of studies showing that fasting is generally helpful fighting cancer, as is cutting out sugar. So what about with CLL? I know some pple are into fasting here and others not- I was thinking of trying a continuous glucose monitor to see how different food affect me. All thoughts welcome!

[Newdawn Administrator]

Hi Research, I see you’ve been diagnosed with CLL possibly from 2019 and your bio says you’ve adopted a low sugar/fasting diet. What has your personal experience of this approach shown you so far in terms of your CLL progression?

I can only share my personal experience as someone who developed type 2 diabetes two years after my CLL dx. I immediately set to moderating dramatically my carb intake (forget sugar because all carbs convert to glucose). I took my low diabetic level out of pre-diabetic range, ate by the glucose meter (tested many times a day) and lost weight. Did it halt the progression of my CLL? Not at all I’m afraid although I can’t be sure if it slowed it. Certainly helped my general health overall but my immunoglobulins continued to decrease and my lymphocyte levels continued to march on unabated.

Fasting is a separate issue and I’ve certainly read of the general beneficial effects of the approach. However, not specifically in relation to CLL. I prefer to eat smaller and more regularly to keep my blood sugar stable. I’m no saint however and the glucose meter is a cruel master.

My advice is to moderate your carbs for your overall general health because CLL is easier to deal with without other co-morbidities. Glucose monitoring is tedious enough when you have to do it but it can be very illuminating and teach us our own personal tolerances. We don’t need sugar but at Easter with the shops heaving with tempting goodies, it’s hard convincing our bodies of that fact! 😉

Good luck!

Newdawn

[Sepsur in reply to Newdawn]

hear hear

[Research123 in reply to Newdawn]

My lymphaecyte count has gone up from 28 to 88 in the nearly 5 years. Can't believe if it carries on it'll be that long before treatment is recommended. Not sure how that rate of progress is. I did find a healthier diet though kept me feeling more energetic, so if nothing else

[SofiaDeo in reply to Research123]

Please read up a bit more on things that indicate you are closer to needing treatment. Your lymphocyte count literally has nothing to do with a decision to treat or not. Note in the following, there is NOTHING about a lymphocyte number that is recommended to treat. "How quickly that number is changing", yes. But the number itself, no.

"Active disease should be clearly documented to initiate therapy. At least 1 of the following criteria should be met.

Evidence of progressive marrow failure as manifested by the development of, or worsening of, anemia and/or thrombocytopenia. Cutoff levels of Hb <10 g/dL or platelet counts <100 × 109/L are generally regarded as indication for treatment. However, in some patients, platelet counts <100 × 109/L may remain stable over a long period; this situation does not automatically require therapeutic intervention.

Massive (ie, ≥6 cm below the left costal margin) or progressive or symptomatic splenomegaly.

Massive nodes (ie, ≥10 cm in longest diameter) or progressive or symptomatic lymphadenopathy.

Progressive lymphocytosis with an increase of ≥50% over a 2-month period, or lymphocyte doubling time (LDT) <6 months. LDT can be obtained by linear regression extrapolation of absolute lymphocyte counts obtained at intervals of 2 weeks over an observation period of 2 to 3 months; patients with initial blood lymphocyte counts <30 × 109/L may require a longer observation period to determine the LDT. Factors contributing to lymphocytosis other than CLL (eg, infections, steroid administration) should be excluded.

Autoimmune complications including anemia or thrombocytopenia poorly responsive to corticosteroids.

Symptomatic or functional extranodal involvement (eg, skin, kidney, lung, spine).

Disease-related symptoms as defined by any of the following:

Unintentional weight loss ≥10% within the previous 6 months.

Significant fatigue (ie, ECOG performance scale 2 or worse; cannot work or unable to perform usual activities).

Fevers ≥100.5°F or 38.0°C for 2 or more weeks without evidence of infection.

Night sweats for ≥1 month without evidence of infection."

ashpublications.org/blood/a...

[AussieNeil Partner Administrator]

Given there is Solid evidence that sugar does not drive CLL progression.

healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

Why would you expect cutting down on carbohydrates, including sugar, would change the CLL progression rate?

That's not to dismiss other health benefits from improving our diets.

Neil

[Research123 in reply to AussieNeil]

Thanks Neil. I do think I am perhaps a little more energetic and consequently healthier in other ways with less sugar. Perhaps it can help indirectly?

[GettinThruIt in reply to AussieNeil]

Is there anything in your view to the philosophy that says you can starve cancer through water fasting ?

[AussieNeil Partner Administrator in reply to GettinThruIt]

I would consider that the potential risks of extended calorie and micronutrient deficiency associated with water fastening, particularly given the common gastro-intestinal issues associated with treatment, would make this a rather risky procedure. I'm also not aware of any evidence for this with CLL. Don't forget that treatment involves remodelling of nodes, spleen and bone marrow as the tumour is removed, requiring energy and micronutrients.

Neil

[GettinThruIt in reply to AussieNeil]

Thanks so much - I’m curious if you’ve seen the documentary called the science of fasting ?

[AussieNeil Partner Administrator in reply to GettinThruIt]

I haven't seen it, but I'm aware that there are studies showing that fasting may provide health benefits in some circumstances. What's of most interest to this community though, is whether fasting could be of benefit when we have CLL. For that, we are still awaiting convincing evidence.

[GettinThruIt in reply to AussieNeil]

I see. I saw it a long time ago, it was pretty interesting. Their basic premise was that all cells need fuel and by water fasting for 40 days the body essentially resets itself. So there was a clinic in Russia where people went for supervised fasting and at the end of the doc they sent all their data to USC medical in LA for corroboration and the American scientists confirmed the results. They listed a lot of maladies that showed improvement tho I don’t recall them and specifically CLL. It’s an interesting concept I thought tho I hear your point about fasting data and CLL.

[SofiaDeo in reply to GettinThruIt]

I would think 40 days of water only would severely affect cardiac and skeletal muscle adversely. That's a long time to go in negative nitrogen balance. I wonder if this "supervised fasting" was more of a time limited during the day.

I've seen people pulled from that show Survivor well before 40 days due to severe loss of body mass. However, they were also expending calories at a high rate, not simply doing a meditative fast.

[Skyshark]

No doubt you have found a general text on cancer that says cancer feeds on sugar. CLL cells are very different to other cancers, unlike other cancers they don't use sugars, they like fats, lipids. PET scan sugar uptake value is used to distinguish between CLL with low SUV and Richters with high SUV (will also find solid tumours as they like sugar).

[LeoPa in reply to Skyshark]

Which kind of lipids they like? Because if they like triglycerides then we have to note that high triglyceride levels are a consequence of high carbohydrates consumption. On top of that high carbohydrate consumption means that blood sugar has to be utilized for energy, first because high blood sugar levels are toxic and thus the body has to burn off the sugar first, and this means that circulating lipids in the blood remain in the blood longer, during which time they can oxidize easily (if they are polyunsaturated, but not if they are saturated) and can glycate easily too and thus CLL cells can feed on them longer. By the way this prolonged time they spend in the bloodstream oxidizing and glycating is the mother of problems with the cardiovascular system. Think plaques ,high blood pressure , strokes heart attacks etc. You see, it's complicated and the devil is in the details.

[Research123 in reply to LeoPa]

That's interesting - sounds like less sugar is probably a good thing then

[LeoPa in reply to Research123]

Less carbohydrates. That includes starchy vegetables, grains and fruits (everything that contains glucose fructose or starch). It's a good thing. But whether it helps with CLL I can not be sure.

[GMa27]

Unfortunately no diet effects our type of cancer. Wish it were that easy. My Hematologist said enjoy life, no dieting especially Keto, don't punish myself by eliminating foods I like. My Dad had CLL for 30 years, he felt great, never needed treatment and ate anything he wanted. He lived for buffets and lived till 94. I love fast food and in general am not a good example of a healthy eater. Was on W&W 12 years & now 6 years into remission. Feel fine, no fatigue etc. I don't recommend my food choices & I think moderation is good advice. But if eliminating sugar helped us, I would have been told that by all my specialists & followed that. Because I don't tolerate breakfast or any food before noon- just always been like that, I do happen to fast. I have a snack around 11 pm and for at least 12-14 hours- I do not eat. Not sure what benefit it has but I feel fine.

[Research123 in reply to GMa27]

What treatment did you have? Sounds like it worked well!

[GMa27 in reply to Research123]

I had 3 rounds of FCR chemo. Was very uneventful and did it's job. 💪🙏

[Research123 in reply to GMa27]

Well whatever works. There seem to be lots of non chemo treatments more recently but the chemo does seem to have generated some total cures as far as I'm aware although I think it's a bit harsher?. Anyway glad you're still in remission which is terrific. Am still watching and waiting but the numbers still go up

[GMa27 in reply to Research123]

Wasn't harsh for me. Seems drugs like Ibrutinib for example can have so many side effects daily for years. I know there are lots of other BTK inhibitors & meds. But the thought of a pill for the rest of my life that can possibly bring brittle nails, bruises- petichea, muscle pain, A fib, etc was not what I wanted. Ibrutinib was the second recommendation if I didn't want chemo. I am glad there are so many choices out there. More & more as the years go by.

[LeoPa]

It helps with a lot of things (if you have other problems too) but the jury is still out on whether it helps with CLL. I personally believe that it does but don't ask me for proof 😁.

[LeoPa]

I see in your bio that you are a vegan eating no sugar. What do you eat? Do you avoid starchy vegetables? Because starch gets converted into glucose right away. Think potato, sweet potato, squash , beets, carrots,grains etc. and if we consume no carbs then we have to consume most of our daily energy from fats. That is very difficult to do on a vegan diet without developing nutrient deficiencies. Supposedly it can be done but one has to be an Einstein like genius to pull it off.

[Research123 in reply to LeoPa]

I do try to avoid potatoes, sweet potatoes but didn't know carrots were in the same category. I do eat a lot of peanuts, without which there'd be nothing of me left. And try to avoid bread but not always successfully....I'm no Einstein following this, more Mr Bean.....

[LeoPa in reply to Research123]

I like peanuts too. Especially roasted, salted 😁. The problem with them is the high oxalate content. They are legumes, People with kidney problems can have a problem with peanuts. I like almonds and cashew nuts even more, but they have the same problem. I used to get diarrhea eating too many raw cashews in one sitting. Some antinutrients, such as phytic acid, lectins, tannins, saponins, amylase inhibitors, and protease inhibitors, can reduce the availability of nutrients in cashews. I don't touch them anymore. Probably nobody ever got fat or metabolically ill by eating too many carrots, so they shouldn't be a problem. As a rule of thumb, if after cooking it gets sweetish, it's starchy. If it turns into sweety upon chewing (like white bread) it's starchy.

[SofiaDeo in reply to Research123]

I think it's more the starches in the "white foods" are the ones to be avoided. They don't have the fiber and phytochemicals brightly colored foods like carrots do. Sweet potatoes are lower glycemic index than standard white potatoes. Sourdough or bread made with einkorn is generally considered healthier.

It's not so much "you must avoid all of these things" as, it's generally better to eat healthier unprocessed stuff. Everyone is different, what works for one won't be as ideal for others. If you are vegan, you need brightly colored things to get various nutrients that otherwise would be in an egg yolk, and you need what are technically white, starchier things like quinoa to get all your essential amino acids, in the correct ratios, to make proteins.

If you aren't familiar with Frances Moore Lappé's Diet For A Small Planet, check it out. I complement amino acids when I can, to get the most protein nutrition from what I am eating.

[Research123 in reply to SofiaDeo]

Thank you I'll look up that book. I guess all food is processed one way or another like when I blend my soup, but all those chemicals they add can't be too healthy

[SofiaDeo in reply to Research123]

No, blending your own soup is not "processing." I'm referring to *manufacturing* processes in food preparation. Plain frozen veggies are virtually unprocessed, they are washed, trimmed, & frozen. A commercial bread may have stabilizers, preservatives, dough conditioners, "natural flavor." Extra chemicals that don't naturally exist in foodstuffs.

I can buy a sourdough bread "Izzio" made in state that contains wheat flour, water, sea salt, sourdough culture, enzymes. That's very different than buying "Wonder Bread" with 29 ingredients, including more high fructose corn syrup than yeast, and preservative calcium proprionate. I can't easily purchase the ingredients of Wonder Bread at the store even if I wanted to, but the sourdough I make myself isn't much different than Izzio.

[kablea]

We must not forget that sufficient exercise means the body handles sugar far more efficiently. It is not just about diet. If you deplete your glycogen levels on a regular basis then the body craves to replace this with carbs. Exercise also offers so many other benefits.

[Research123 in reply to kablea]

Yes good point. Do walk every day although am not sure how much 7000 steps counts at 55......

[Pin57]

Kablea’s reply zeros in on what likely is more important than finding the right diet n that’s … exercising.

From readings and studies (I know I should cite one)…. I’ll just summarize the finding and it’s incorporating forms of exercising more in one’s life (n could be as simple as taking more or longer walks, etc) that may improve one’s cancer situation. AussieNeil and others on this forum have noted this many times in other posts/replies.

Not to throw water on your less sugar idea (which is typically a great thing to do for better overall health) but as others have replied it’s not a CLL killer like one might hope for.

So if you can, seek to exercise (both aerobically and strength wise) more if you are not already doing that.

Good luck forward with your CLL situation.