For those of you in W & W -- strong olive oil?

[Vlaminck]

Came across this article. Don't know if someone has already posted but if not, think might be of interest to those in W&W. It is a trial study from this year showing apparently definite benefit from nearly 3 T of high polyphenol olive oil daily for those in W&W. Olive oil doesn't come broken down by polyphenol in the store to match the study, but I went on "Olive Lovers.com" where I buy my olive oil, and ordered bottles of two of the highest polyphenol content oils they sell and just started taking today (there is a strong bite to it). Don't know if it'll show any change, but seems worth the try.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/351...

[seelel]

The problem with studies like these is that all measurements are only taken from blood samples. As we know, the primary habitation of CLL cells is the lymphatic system where they have protective environments. CLL cells in the peripheral blood is a very small percentage of the full CLL load.

The phenomenon of measuring reduced lymphocytes in the blood may simply be the CLL cells returning to safe harbour in the lymph nodes and the spleen. I'm not sure that this is a relevant study as it's reach is limited.

[Vlaminck in reply to seelel]

Interesting perspective. I will give some thought to this idea that, if your lymphocyte numbers are going down, it is not necessarily progress because the CLL cells may just be returning to lymphs, if I understood you correctly. I am not convinced that the results of this study are irrelevant but maybe I will be when I learn more. In meantime, I will be taking my olive oil--have visit coming up in a month. Curious.

[seelel in reply to Vlaminck]

I would always agree that it is good to remain curious.

I have never been treated over the past 16 years since diagnosis, and on and off have done clinical trials with a cohort of 1. Foods are fuel, and the right fuel in the machine is essential for its smooth operation. So I'm a stickler for an intelligent diet that recognises hundreds of thousands of years of evolution rather than what simply looks good or has taste appeal. I expect a healthy body may help moderate CLL cell proliferation, but probably not accumulation. But I could be wrong.

Food has its own mode of influence on our overall internal climate, but I doubt that there is a food that targets CLL cells in the way pharmaceutical products do. Movement is also essential to prevent stagnancy in the lymphatic system. Blood is circulated by its own dedicated pump, but the lymph requires movement.

I have found fasting to be the most effective method of reducing lymphocyte numbers in the blood. After a 7 to 10 day water only fast, I have found the lymphocytes to drop between 25 and 30%. What we don't know however, is whether they are killed off and re-accumulate over 6 months, or whether they find temporary safe haven and nutrition in the lymph nodes.

The bottom line for me is that my ALC plateaued a few years back at between 35.0 and 40.0. So I continue with living a healthy lifestyle and an annual fast in the hope that they are factors in managing the CLL.

Unfortunately, I doubt that there will ever be comprehensive studies done on the effect of diet or fasting on CLL because they are too difficult to set up and measure.

Good luck with the oil.......

[Edalv in reply to seelel]

Interesting experience regarding the 7-10 water fasting. I have been practicing intermittent fasting 15-16 hours daily, and my lymphocytes count has dropped about 20% in the last 2 1/2 years. At first, I wasn’t sure it was the result of the fasting, but it was too much of a coincidence. In the process I lost about 20 pounds. Since I am still in W&W, I didn’t have to worry about issues with CLL medication… Regarding the EVOO, it’s a simple and low risk intervention…

[AussieNeil Partner Administrator in reply to Vlaminck]

Sorry to further dampen your enthusiasm, but I get suspicious when I see statements like this in a study paper:-

During the DI2, a decrease in the white blood cell and lymphocyte count was observed (p ≤0.05), comparing 3 months before the intervention and 6 months after it. After 3 and 6 months of DI2, an increase (p ≤0.05) was observed in the apoptotic markers ccK18 and Apo1-Fas, and also in the cell cycle negative regulator p21, and also a decrease in the antiapoptotic protein Survivin, and in the cellular proliferation marker Cyclin D.

There are two problems with this statement and how the authors have decided to share their results.

1) Why oh why report a decrease in the white blood cell and lymphocyte count and only show the far less accurate measure of the WBC count (figure 3), when you have the lymphocyte count results? The plots only show a reduction for a few of the participants in any case, and as seelel notes, IF the improvement is in the lymphocyte count, we don't know whether the lymphocytes moved to the nodes or the overall tumour did reduce. We know that with CLL, some people can see notable reductions in any case. It's fairly well known that while it's usual for the ALC to grown exponentially, the ALC flattens and even reverses for some with CLL.

2) When you state the p-value used in an analysis "(p ≤0.05)", it's usual to report a confidence interval (CI) e.g. [95% CI, 0.79–1.66]. Why omit them?

Neil

[CLLerinOz Administrator in reply to AussieNeil]

Hi Neil,

This research rang a bell with me because I thought I'd read about it earlier this year. I went looking and found the article I'd read which explains that this research was funded by the World Olive Centre for Health (WOCH).

"The Pilot Study was a collaboration between Dr. Prokopios Magiatis and Dr. Eleni Melliou from the National and Kapodistrian University of Athens and WOCH, Dr. Andrea Paola Rojas from the Univ. of Peloponnese, Dr. Kodonis at Hospital of Lakonía, Dr. Nomikos from the Harokopio Univ. and their research team A. Ioannidis, I. Dimopoulos, G. Kosmidis, M. Katsa."

"WOCH funded this study from income entirely derived from membership fees and from analyzing phenolic concentrations in olive oil using quantitative Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (qNMR) and private donations."

worldolivecenter.com/en/leu...

"The mission of the non-profit organization WOCH is to provide certification for olive oil with a health claim, training of producers and targeted research on the emergence of the health protecting and therapeutic properties of all olive products, having as ultimate target the increase of their economic value"

worldolivecenter.com/en/our...

[AussieNeil Partner Administrator in reply to CLLerinOz]

It's a pity the study authors stated in theirConflict of interest statement

The authors declare that the research was conducted in the absence of any commercial or financial relationships that could be construed as a potential conflict of interest.

Compare this with the conflict of interest statement for the ibrutinib vs acalabrutinib comparison trial, which goes on for pages and includes the declaration of research funding sources.

Acalabrutinib Versus Ibrutinib in Previously Treated Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia: Results of the First Randomized Phase III Trial

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/343...

Neil

[Vlaminck in reply to AussieNeil]

Sorry, but I don't regret attaching the article for folks to see, though great to have someone as yourself to exam and point out flaws I had overlooked. Did think your response to the second article a bit harsh given that I made clear it was not about CLL but about olive oil and cancer generally.

[AussieNeil Partner Administrator in reply to Vlaminck]

Sorry, but I'm in a lot of pain from shingles. Posting about the research into olive oil components and CLL has provided an educational opportunity to highlight how bias might influence how study results are selectively used to portray a more positive outcome than the data warrants.

With respect to your second referenced paper, I'll admit I didn't look into the paper. With the higher incidence of secondary cancer with CLL, perhaps there is some value into increasing our consumption of olive oil, but there are so many theories out there, which do you believe? Will it make a difference when we have CLL? We'd need a more focused study I think before deciding to change our diet. Look at how much discussion into sourcing the right oil your post generated.

Neil

[mrsjsmith in reply to AussieNeil]

Neil,

So sorry to hear about your shingles. It can be very painful and uncomfortable. I hope it doesn’t last too long.

Yes that article had me reading the back of the labels on my olive oil as well.

Regards

Colette

[Vlaminck in reply to AussieNeil]

I am so sorry you are in the pain of shingles! May it pass soon. Take care.

[Yalokin]

I just looked at the best in the world - 2854mg/kg polyolefins - 250 ml bottle - 155 euros.

[Yalokin]

Sorry World Record Harvest 2021-8500mg/kg-500ml-€465.

[Yalokin]

For the plebeians-1362mg/kgpolyphenols-31 euro/l-good price, but there is no free shipping worldwide. For the expensive ones there is.

Oleocanthal and oleacein - respectively 86/101 mg/l.

The best with a certificate - 135 euros/l with a content of 1391/322 mg/kg with free shipping worldwide!!!

That is, with a content that covers what they used in the study (even better). The delivery includes a total of 10 liters of olive oil.

It's not that much (for those who can afford it).

This amount is for 8 months, i.e. roughly 165 euros per month.

I also found it for 71 euros/l with free delivery from a batch of 6 liters with a content that is close to the required - 478/272 mg/kg. That is, it comes out to 86 euros per month with a certificate.

[Vlaminck in reply to Yalokin]

Wow -- can you give the name and the merchant? Would like to check it out. The highest I could find from Olive Oil Lovers wasabout 650 mg polyphenol

[Yalokin in reply to Vlaminck]

I will answer you personally, so that it does not become an advertisement. I have no interest in this. I am clean as a tear...

[Vlaminck in reply to Yalokin]

Thank you. Would love it and appreciate your research. Understand about the advertisement caution. And wonderful you are doing so well.

[Yalokin in reply to Vlaminck]

They may also have a store in New York, which doesn't really matter because they ship worldwide, but the reviews in the USA I've read are excellent, although people are getting treatment for another occasion.

[Vlaminck in reply to Yalokin]

Not in NYC, tho visit off and on.

[CORONOVIRUS in reply to Yalokin]

Could please send me the name, as well? I am in the US, in W & W, and vegetarian. Thank you so very much.

[steve_canada in reply to Yalokin]

Hello Yalokin can you send me the brand please ?

[Reinhard in reply to Yalokin]

Dear Yalokin

would you be so kind and give me the contact of the last supplier mentioned in your post.

Many thanks

Reinhard from Austria

[Identiy]

Is that mg/litre or mg/100ml?

[Yalokin in reply to Identiy]

mg/kg to be exact

[Ashikaga]

I saw this research paper when it came out and was intrigued. My friend, who does research and writes medical papers, kindly read it through for me. He dampened my enthusiasm by pointing out the many limitations of the research but agreed that a mediterranean diet, or similar varied health-conscious diet, along with an active lifestyle would likely be the best recipe. Don't rely on just the high phenolic olive oil.

[Vlaminck]

You are right, of course, eat well, etc. Cut back on drinking. Try to allow at least 12 hrs fasting. (for me, take green tea extract or turmeric and some other supplements). Yet I would be curious --did he think, though limited, that the study had no value?

[Ashikaga in reply to Vlaminck]

He didn't say that it had no value. He would certainly be interested in a longer study, with more participants, from more countries- not just Greece where olive oil is such an important part of the diet. I understand that the lead researcher is already planning a longer trial. The olive oil used in the research is rare and expensive and not available in your local supermarket or health food shop. You may need to import it yourself depending on where you live.

High phenolic olive oil may be beneficial as part of a varied and healthy diet. But beware of overdoing it- it is high in calories. Also the phenolic content can decline quickly. Keep it in a cool, dark place and once opened use quickly. For longer periods of storage keep it unopened in the fridge where it will solidify- just take it out a few hours before you want to start a new bottle.

[Yalokin]

We are all like drowning men grasping at straws. What to do...fate. This is kind of funny if it wasn't sad though...😣

[Ashikaga in reply to Yalokin]

Yes, you have to keep your sense of humour.

[Vlaminck]

I posted hoping it wasn't a straw to grasp at but maybe to try -- what's the harm in taking this olive oil which I've previously read has many health benefits anyway.

[Vlaminck]

Re the article-- I have read a number of articles over years about how beneficial a tablespoon or so of olive oil is anyway. So, if it this works (legitimately, and not just shuttle to lymphs), terrific! If it only makes you generally a bit more healthy, good too. In other words, the cost benefit seems to favor a why not attitude. I have read nothing indicating that olive oil is harmful (assuning reasonable amounts).

[Ashikaga in reply to Vlaminck]

Yes worth a try. EVOO is a healthy product.However from personal experience I wouldn't set your hopes too high.

I jumped on this research when it came out and started taking it straight away. 3 months later expecting a drop in my lymphocyte count, I found it had shot up by far the biggest jump in my 5 years on W&W. I was gutted and initially blamed it on the high phenolic EVOO as that was the only thing that I had changed during the previous 6 months, though obviously on reflection I cannot know the reason for the jump.

[Vlaminck in reply to Ashikaga]

How disappointing! Below I cite an article reviewing the info to date (2022) on how olive oil in general is inversely related to getting cancer, so I have to think it is generally healthy. As I recall without looking back, seem to rmemeber that the study was for longer than 3 months -- it did show that the same study using low phenolic EVOO had no positive (but no negative) lympho effect, Sorry. Hope it reverses!

[Vlaminck]

Another 2022 article reviewing various studies and results, tending to indicate olive oil inversely related to cancers generally. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[montieth]

Thanks for posting this study. I am open to it especially because of the side effects of other treatments.

[Vlaminck in reply to montieth]

Yes, it's in my "why not" category. But I wouldn't ever use it AS treatment if it's time for treatment. It's specifically geared toward those not yet in treatment.

[AussieNeil Partner Administrator in reply to Vlaminck]

It's not only that the paper is reporting the likelihood of cancer prevention (not slowing the growth of cancers), but the second paper you referenced only reports studies for solid tumours. I couldn't see a single reference to a study on any leukaemia or lymphoma.

Neil

[Vlaminck]

You missed the context. It was not proffered as an article about olive oil and CLL but rather one of many articles on olive oil and cancer generally.

[country76]

Was that Tsp or Tbsp?