This post is partly inspired by a recent posting about masks in supermarkets.
It unfortunately won't show me in a particularly good light but I feel a need to get things off my chest.
The UK governments have recently introduced legislation making wearing of face coverings compulsory in certain situations and also making quarantine compulsory if travelling from certain countries.
As far as I can tell, both provisions are being flouted by some (the mask provisions definitely on a pretty widespread scale), and no-one is showing much interest in enforcing them. So it seems, to some extent, there is now a cherry-picking approach in terms of the respect for law. That approach seems to me so self-centered on many levels (i.e putting oneself above the law. not caring about the health and wellbeing of others).
This seems in stark contrast to what happened quite a few years ago when a smoking ban was introduced. As far as I remember, this was respected, with little protest. Something seems to have gone wrong now. The .pandemic seems to have had a detrimental effect on many peoples' mindsets (and I don't intend to exempt myself-see below). Maybe fear of the pandemic- an increased awareness of mortality- has somehow made some people more concerned and focused on themselves, and their own comfort and enjoyment of life. (This doesn't necessarily mean they have ceased to care for their nearest and dearest). Again, I don't intend to exempt myself and I am not suggesting this deterioration in mindset is at all universal.
Well, enough of my pontificating! In my anger at people not wearing masks/face coverings I have approached a few individuals and drew their attention to the fact that they were not complying with the law. However, this degenerated into an unpleasant row with someone in M & S on Friday, that's left a very unpleasant memory. I feel I was (under provocation) unnecessarily aggressive. But trying to be objective it seems that part of my motivation for approaching people may be to release my own increasing feelings of frustration at a very restricted lifestyle. That, I think, is an absolutely invalid motivation, so I've decided that I'm not going to approach random individuals about mask wearing anymore unless I felt my safety was under direct threat (eg from Asda delivery drivers who hardly ever wear masks).
So I am somewhat ashamed of my recent behaviour, but I would stick by my comments in the third and fourth paragraphs above.
Antony
PS I am not intending here to comment on other countries' laws/constitutions which might be entirely different from the UK.
PPS (added 19 August). There have been some interesting and detailed posts added since which discuss the related question of whether masks are effective at stopping the spread of Covid 19. However, I have decided not to comment on them, at least on this thread.
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I hear you, Antony. I think most of us will identify with your "increasing feelings of frustration at a very restricted lifestyle."
Other people's carelessness in not obeying legal requirements on mask wearing and social distancing makes it much worse for us of course, as we know our lives are more at risk.
Also there is no clear end to the risk of Covid... It's hard to feel positive about the future...
It also is relevant to the unpleasant argument I had in M & S where the customer suggested I was afraid, and if I was that afraid there were plenty of supermarkets who could deliver to my doorstep. An irrelevant, patronising remark, but one that successfully touched a very raw nerve with me. It could be the customer sensed my vulnerability and used it to their advantage.
Sadly I agree with you and I have started speaking out as well. I pointed out to 4 women getting on a bus in front of me that they should be wearing masks. But sadly the driver ( also not wearing one, but behind a screen ) didn’t comment. I fear I shall get a slap or abuse if I keep this up. Very difficult as I can understand small shops not having someone at the door, but I hear from a friend that shops in other European countries are refusing customers unless they are wearing masks.
I wish the big supermarkets would post a security guard at the entrance and refuse admission to anybody without a mask (or valid excuse for not wearing one). In addition, they could have a supply of masks to give to those without them.
Not good for business, though!
The other countries are doing the right thing and I've begun to notice some small shops round here with signs saying "no mask, no admission". Hopefully the trend will gather momentum,
I was in Asda early Friday evening to pick up some special eggs (don't ask!) and came away incensed at the numbers of people not wearing masks. It really can make you feel angry because they are being so !*$ selfish.
Jackie, that reminds me of stories my parents told me about growing up in England during WWII. They said, if you didńt have a chicken in your back yard, you didn’t have eggs. Even as recent as the 1990s, my mother still had a chicken coupe in the back yard for her supply of eggs. Obviously, harsh memories growing up through the Blitz Krieg.
So true! We used to keep hens on our veggie patch, 16 at one point, so nice eggs from happy hens was something we got used to. We had to give them to a friend with a smallholding when my CLL meant it wasn't safe for me to clean them out and look after them . But I'm now fussy about the eggs I buy and really appreciate nice ones!
As regards your bus experience-I too felt concern sometimes about violent retaliation. The law is of very limited use without enforcement, and it shouldn't be up to us (i mean the customer) to enforce it.
No delivery drivers have ever worn masks, rarely wear gloves and certain drivers do not event respect your distancing as you stand back from the boxes/crates laid on the ground for them to put the shopping in!
Since day 1 we have had a total of four large plastic crates that any delivery could be placed in and have always pointed to these crates placed across our gate down our drive where we stand inside our porch awaiting a chance to move them inside.
By pure chance we've never had to take a delivery heavy rain
Drivers are not allowed by law to wear masks as it may restrict vision or steam up glasses if wearing them.
This was in the news recently.
Bus drivers should have a screen fitted to protect them from passengers.
Before the last delivery Asda drivers were delivering groceries in plastic shopping bags which were left on the doorstep, which we took inside. That was an Ok arrangement for me.
Last delivery-they left their own crates on the doorstep. The driver kept on coming very close. I then had to unpack the crates myself, which wasn't at all easy for me.
I am going to phone customer services in the hope that a better solution can be found next time round.
I didn't realise drivers are not allowed to wear masks. All the minicab drivers seem to be wearing them. I wonder if I should ask them to take them off, when I take a cab, as I don't want to encourage law-breaking (?!).
Although the issue is rightly concentrated around the selfish who deem not to wear masks, what stood out to me was this sentence which also resonated with Paula;
‘But by trying to be objective it seems that part of my motivation for approaching people may be to release my own increasing feelings of frustration at a very restricted lifestyle’.
That line summed up my feeling perfectly this morning and I too had experiences yesterday that made me realise I’m suffering from the same emotions. This has been a long and scary haul for us immunocompromised with no clear safe end in sight. The whole Covid issue has polarised public opinion and in a different way I realised yesterday that my dismay at the dissenters and deniers was being released as anger and frustration. Quite often fear manifests itself in that way so don’t feel ashamed about your very natural outburst. Ok it may be uncharacteristic of you but these are trying times and some people are simply not trying enough to show care to fellow citizens.
For some people Covid isn’t particularly scary or threatening and they resent the massive interference into their daily lives and rights. We sadly don’t have that luxury but I’ve decided it’s pointless to try and instil societal responsibility into some people. If a polite reminder doesn’t work, nothing will which is why retailers are refusing to let their staff be at risk by tackling non mask wearing customers.
However, I have seen those with security be much more insistent and all should have a strong notice on their store entrance.
I do think we should have greater rights around people approaching our property however but in honesty I’ve always found delivery people to be quite responsible.
I’ve decided to make peace with myself on this because I don’t need the aggravation and I’m sure you don’t either Antony 😊
If I don’t feel safe, I won’t stay and they simply won’t get my business.
Thank you, Newdawn, for a very helpful reply. It, together with other replies, has helped lift the smog of depression that has hung over me ever since the Friday incident.
Generally speaking, this forum (even though I don't contribute very much) is helping to keep me sane (just!) through a trying time with no end in sight-yet.
I am trying to come off anti-depressants at the moment, with my GP's agreement. Whether or not this will succeed, I don't know. But during this transitional period I think it best to avoid confrontations with strangers as much as possible, as I don't have much trust (just at the moment) in my own emotions!
I totally understand what you’re describing Antony and applaud you for sharing these feelings with us. You’ll find many people nodding in shared understanding as they read your words.
Stay away from vexatious people and let them stew in their own selfish stupidity!
I did rather agonise as to whether or not I should share my feelings/thoughts on this. It has turned out so far to be very therapeutic for me, at least.
We CLLers are living on the edge at the moment and it doesn't take much for me to fall off the edge and feel exasperated with selfish people! Generally, that only goes as far as giving them one of my best Paddington Bear stares!
I find it very uncomfortable knowing my very survival depends on others using common sense. Knowing how hopeless folk are out there (UK) in remaining Covid safe - deters me from going out. Perhaps those that choose not to wear a mask - would be content wearing a ventilator tube! I think not!
The benefits of wearing a mask depends on how it is worn, removed from the face and safely disposed of. Meanwhile during the wearing - I guess some protection is occurring.
My son, living on a distant continent, faces troops, police and drones when out and about at the moment, No quarter given, no repeat offending issues.
The thing is - to my mind - IF we all adhered to the guidance - we would get thru this so much quicker.
Re your preceding paragraph: In radio interviews senior police officers have made it clear that the police consider they need the consent of the public to carry out their duties. So very unlikely indeed that we will see the scenarios you describe being played out here. It could be that the doctrine of consent is inhibiting the police here from enforcing the face covering laws-maybe a case of a doctrine being taken too far?
I'm still having to isolate with my wife since early August purely to enable us to visit a hospital later this week.
When they gave me this urgent appointment that had been deferred since start of lock down they stipulated we would not be let into the hospital unless we'd continued to shield.
It's a private hospital via NHS referall to see a consultant surgeon re my neck and arm mobility or lack of.
Next day I have a telephone appointment with another consultant about another problem following next week's trip to another hospital for nerve testing so a busier few days than expected!!
Snap Dave! I have to shield for two separate 14 day periods leading up to cataract operations. I also have to have a Covid test 48hrs before each. This is a private hospital and like yours, are very strict.
The frustration is a very real thing. I have had a major falling out with a close family member who got symptoms and refused to have a covid test! And I am sure many people have conveniently forgotten about the need to isolate the whole family if one member gets symptoms until they get the test. And tests can easily be booked now by simply doing a web form and booking into a drive thru.
Many are complacent. Some young people think they are invulnerable and don’t see why they should try and protect the elderly. (And many of us are NOT elderly!).
And so far we haven’t seen the huge second spike most EU countries are. I think the fact many offices have been slow to open is protecting us as most offices on mainland Europe have been opened for a while.
For all of us though the main thing at the moment is to continue to be very wary if indoors environments. Especially if there is a recycling air conditioning unit. Many offices and shops will have thaf. And that can spread aerosol hugely. So if you must be indoors opening windows and doors, wearing masks and switching off any aircon unit thaf doesn’t draw in fresh air from outside is probably the way to go. But outside we can usually avoid people reasonably well and for added comfort I often wear a mask in case someone gets too close.
Tonight I am being very brave. We are going early evening to a Wagamama! It has outside seating tho. So I feel reasonably safe and the infection rate in the area is low. I hope people respect the social distance in the queue as the restaurant staff assured me they would.....
Thank you for your advice as to what is particularly risky.
I live in an outer London suburb, and I am now beginning to miss central parts of London, where my wife and I used to do some very enjoyable things (e.g go to National Gallery) a lot. Although this is probably very unwise I am toying with the idea of taking a tube into town soon wearing some form of mask. Definitely avoiding rush hour.
However, I am not at all sure this will come to pass, this year.
Re family members. I had a slightly similar experience, One of my brothers recently returned from a foreign country, and, I believe, totally ignored the quarantine (the period has expired now). He seemed quite proud to tell me, but I don't think I hid my disapproval very well!
I am glad to hear of your trip tonight. Hope it stays dry for you. Antony
I wonder if this is a city thing where the younger population dominates and they have been told they are invincible!
I live in a semi rural area with the city 60 miles away and life is very old fashioned and older people dominate.
Only a district hospital but looked after so well.
I’ve seen people on passing buses hook their nose over their masks but shoppers have been excellent.
Also where I live people will tell you straight, no slidey eyes or two faced comments.
At these times it’s about your personal standards. Your personal safety. You must be prepared to dodge away from others and risk assess every environment. Don’t go back if you feel unsafe.
How many masks are hot washed each time or disposed of each time? The new litter near bus stops is masks. Used masks are a dirty hankie hibernating all manner of germs.
The signs here (outer London) are also that there is a greater level of compliance amongst older persons. Possibly also , young men are less inclined to comply than young women (as far as I can tell).
I agree with everything else you say. The last sentence particularly resonates.
I do wonder if it was the earlier statements from the government that masks wouldn’t protect the wearer (apparently there is a certain amount of protection), when what they were actually doing was trying to keep the PPE for the essential health staff.
I think that has been taken on board by the public as an excuse for not going to the bother (and it is a bother) of wearing a mask. And they have not been made aware of difficulties we, in the 'very vulnerable' group, are struggling with.
I think what you say in both paragraphs has some truth in it.
May well be other reasons too: EG: (1) The virus is currently at a very low level in many places so wearing masks may seem unnecessary (2) There may be resistance to wearing masks because we do not have a cultural tradition of wearing masks (compared to some countries in the Far East). (3) No apparent enforcement of the law.
Antony
I take daily walks in a large urban park. Most joggers do not social distance. I get a work out just turning and twisting every direction so that I can quickly get off the walking path to avoid close contact. Do not get me started about the cyclists on the walking path. They silently and quickly get as close to you as possible. Then you get the walkers doing their best to block the path completely. If there are walkers in a group, they will equal distance themselves across the path. I will speak out and politely ask them to social distance. Generally, you get a blank dull look back – I think that it sums up their intellect. The other night two cyclists stopped and said what is your problem? we live together! Wow, where do you start with that statement.
Deep down I think that Darwin is at work. If you are not smart enough to protect against COVID-19, you may not survive.
I am a jogger myself but only jog in pretty deserted places (which conveniently happens to be in my immediate neighbourhood). If I do come across pedestrians I feel the onus is on me to avoid them.
I had an altercation in a car park with an unmasked man who came right up to me as I opened the car door for my dog. Our first outing in months. I politely asked this man to stay further away and he just said "I don't believe in all that". I asked him to respect me as a (masked) vulnerable person and got a blank stare and gesture. We have not been out again.
Thank you. Unfortunately it is impossible to legislate against stupid. Occasionally I find myself wishing I was a police officer and could issue fixed penalty notices... Also to black clad cyclists riding at night with no lights!! That's another story of course.... Maybe it's my age!
Thank you! I'm a little middle aged lady and was quite scared underneath!!
I appreciate your self reflection, and I agree, I think some of these cavalier attitudes come from denial and/or just being fed up with being cooped up.
I too have been angered by the disregard of others. The incidents that have me shaking my head the most occur the corridors of THE HOSPITAL!!! I have had to ask personnel wearing hospital identification tags to put their damn masks on and keep their distance!!!
I share your feelings about people who will not wear masks or face coverings (with the exception of those who are exempt of course). I am ashamed that one of my nieces in particular (I think to goad me as I have made my views known) enjoys boasting on Facebook about getting away with not wearing a mask in shops or making out she is exempt. If you look at the UK gov website, the mask wearing is unenforceable as there is no proof about who can and cannot wear them. Also staff don't have to. I went into my local chemist to collect my prescription (for Acicolvir due to my virus risk) and the staff were not wearing masks. I also found myself standing under an air condition unit which could have been blowing covid virus particles into my eyes for all I knew!
I have decided there is little point in complaining to anyone else about anything these days but just to do as much as possible for self protection and protection for others, even if not reciprocated.
Its very difficult indeed when we are aware that someone we know very well is ignoring the regulations, and furthermore proud of it.
As I said to Adrianuk, my brother seemed very proud of ignoring his quarantine, but I also know of many other people who ignored many aspects of the lockdown, even when it was at its most stringent.
I find it difficult to understand why people feel proud of breaking a law. Perhaps it gives a feeling of escape from the shackles, as it were. Maybe a childish element in it?
Probably, if there had been/was more compliance, the "R" rate would be lower than it is now. We CLLers would now be feeling under less threat.
I've spoken up as well but have had after thoughts because, it's true - you just don't know if people will overreact or how they will respond. Its a situation that causes stress and it's making me cranky. ☹️
Oh boy all this is so familiar. I tend to mumble under my breath.
I’ve heard it said that if we don’t feel safe we should stay at home. That was about going to self catering places and with regards to cleaning the property or leaving it fallow for a day. The indication being that those that can get on with their lives should and those who find it scary or unsafe should stay in to allow the rest of the world get on without a care in the world.
Here I have witnessed flouting in all age groups and compliance in all age groups so I just have to be aware of everything around me. I haven’t yet been in a supermarket so perhaps behind my mask I should have a zip??
Re what is stated in your second paragraph. This is more or less what I was told in my local supermarket (Marks and Spencer). It does seem rather callous to me. Its not reasonable to expect people who are chronically ill to go into indefinite hibernation! But we do need to be cautious.
I am glad I posted on this. Its good to know I am not alone in my thoughts/feelings/actions regarding this.
I cant help feeling that those speaking out are (in doing so) suffering more than those to whom they are speaking. It's emotionally stressful and draining. So is it all worth it?
Totally understand everyone’s frustration. I live in San Diego, CA and for the most part in my small bubble, people are wearing masks. BUT I see the beach packed and no one is distancing or wearing a mask. I will see the random group where 1 person isn’t wearing a mask. Why is this person special thinking she ( in this case) and doesn’t need to wear a mask. Or at the supermarket. Ugh!!!
In the US, masking wearing has totally become politicized and I don’t understand it, other than the fact that our president doesn’t think mask wearing is important. I guess he’s worried about messing up his “lovely“ hair. It’s not political. It’s about everyone’s health and safety.
So I avoid these “idiots” for lack of a better word.
Without wishing to get into US politics (or the politics of any particular country), perhaps some see mask wearing as a sign of weakness, not strength, and also an unjustified curtailment of individual liberty?
Failure to wear masks is one of the few things about the pandemic which is not very political in the US. It is a universal phenomenon - without borders.
- First we have people who feel they are invincible and have no regard for others. You will find these people on every street in the planet. They tend to be young or younger. They also cannot put 2 and 2 together to realize that even if they are invincible, they are endangering us.
- Second are the “entitled”. This is an odd lot of people for sure. These people feel that public health rules are for OTHER people. They feel that they are way too important to get COVID - and so they have no reason to protect themselves.
I look at the first group above - and think that if this was the 1918-19 pandemic - where young people were the ones that died disproportionately, we would have a whole new group of non mask wearers.
The second group is common to any event in society. These are the people that talk loudly in movies-and tend to push others out of their way at events.
It really makes me angry to see so many self-centered people breaking the rules. But when life gets tough, many people show their true colors.
Mask or no mask? This simple ethical approach can help with your pandemic etiquette
- What kind of person do I want to be?
- What are my duties?
- What kind of world do I want to live in?
In summary:
- What would mum say? (Be compassionate.)
- What does my workplace code of conduct say? (It prioritises manaakitanga or care for others.)
- What does the reversability test imply? (That I can show solidarity with, and reduce anxiety for, people at risk, even if I am at less risk.)
- If someone I’m in contact with got sick tomorrow, how would I feel about my behaviour today? (I’d rather not be sorry in hindsight.)
Asking a range of questions from all three ethical angles helps me arrive at an ethically measured decision: that I should be consistently wearing a mask when I go out. And a careful decision is much easier to stick to, even if it means I still get the odd funny look.
Re grocery stores, i'm in usa and see cashiers in markets wearing a clear face shield visor, no mask over mouth or nose. That bothers me but clear visors are apparently within the store rules if employees are allowed to do that.
In general I agree with you. My experiences so far have led me to the conclusion that it's not worth the hassle.
However here in the UK the big supermarkets have told the people working in the shops not to enforce the rules. They are probably concerned that the staff would be at risk of attack. May be commercial considerations, too.
Walmart Canada has enforced mandatory mask, no mask, No entry there is a security guard at the door telling this to people and enforcing it , they provide the masks free at the door.
Walmarts in USA offer you a mask if you do not have one, but will allow you to enter if you reject their free mask. They have decided not to wrestle people to the ground that refuse to wear one. I have yet to see anyone in Walmart without one however.
I think ‘no mask, no entry’ is a good idea, once inside the confrontation and risk on the challenger will be higher.
I think the enforcement by the police is virtually impossible, they are getting their powers controlled all the time, I can’t see them being OKed for drones etc, so we basically have to accept any situation the way the ‘igniters’ choose time behave in the UK.
Somebody compared this with the smoking change some years ago. The difference is with smoking you could see and smell the effects. With COVID-19 it is unseen so give strength to the disbelievers (can’t see it, can’t hurt me).
I wondered about approaching a non-mask wearer (not too close) and then starting coughing under my mask to see how arrogant they were then. Decided not a good idea as I’m only 5’9”. Perhaps if I were 6’2” body builder I might have given it a shot.
The stupidity of some people was brought home to me at the local recycling centre recently (outdoor no masks) when a guy was mouthing off about ‘their’ two metre rule in the open when he was in the pub right next to his mates the night before and he was fine.
I would welcome at least some efforts by the police to enforce the rules. This would serve to encourage others to wear them. After all, the police seemed to have had the resources a few months ago to move people off park benches and stop them sitting on the grass in parks.
Universal enforcement would, of course, be out of the question.
Can we discuss the difference between a potentially helpful mask and one that is just worn as something no more effective than a talisman?
I don’t blame most mask-wearers for not knowing that their mask, or the way they are using it, may actually be contributing to spreading the virus but there are those who should know better.
At the beginning of this pandemic, masks seemed like a reasonable precaution. But now that we have 100% mask compliant countries like Hong Kong and The Philippines seeing major outbreaks it’s become clear that mask mandates don’t work to stop the virus.
How can this be?
Up until COVID-19 became a political issue, neither the WHO nor the CDC said masks were effective against virus spread. Places like Hawaii, where they’ve had some of the strictest mask mandates on the planet, are learning that the masks most of its populace wear, are ineffective. Hawaii has become a COVID hot-spot these days despite everyone complying.
Inevitably we are now hearing pro-maskers say that the reason for increasing cases in these 100% mask-compliant places is because people are not wearing them correctly or are wearing the wrong kind.
Okay, fair enough.
What is definitely known, and has been for decades, is that cloth and cheap “surgical” masks don’t protect the wearer or others against viruses. Simply too much virus can pass through and especially around the edges of these masks or from the mask to the wearer’s hands. This is why epidemiologists wear hazmat suits in labs that study viruses. They are a sealed environment. But the public can’t get that gear so what to do?
For those of the “wear the damn mask persuasion” I must politely ask, do you a.) wear an N95 mask and b.) do you wear/use it correctly?
I only wear an N95 because, while even their efficacy is questionable, it’s the only kind that has any hope to minimize viral load/exposure to a level that could theoretically protect me and those around me.
I say “theoretically” because unfortunately, there are no places on earth where there has been 100% N95 mask use so we don’t really know if even this grade of mask could have stopped the spread even in places like mask-fanatical Hawaii.
Further complicating the issue is that even with 100% N95 compliance, would people wear them correctly?
CROSS-CONTAMINATION
You know what’s worse than no mask?People who touch their masks.
The second you touch your mask you have put the rest of us at higher risk than if you had been wearing no mask at all - this is because you have actually deposited more virus from your hands to the next surface You touch than you would have had you simply exhaled near that same surface.
Experts say cross-contamination from masks -> hands -> surfaces is the biggest issue we face, not normal unmasked exhalation. This is especially the case in well-ventilated areas or outdoors where normal breathing poses virtually no risk to others while on the other hand, contaminating surfaces with your fingers may be.
Simply put, masks harbor bacteria and viruses. These build up to high levels in and on your mask. Touch that mask and then something else and you’ve defeated the entire purpose of the mask-wearing exercise.
Consider this; how many people do you see fidgeting with their masks in the grocery store? You do realize that they are then handling packages, canned goods, produce, etc. all over the store?
When I see someone at the store touch their mask then inspect a box of cereal and replace it back on the shelf, what I really see is someone who just licked their fingers then picked up the box.
Imagine all the people stocking shelves at stores licking their hands constantly while they load the milk cartons into the refrigerated case. Yuck. If they touched their mask, they might as well be coughing directly on the carton.
Touch the mask, spread the virus.
Ironically, had they not been wearing a mask, they would not be spreading contaminates at nearly the same level because concentrations in unfiltered breath are MUCH lower than that from mask to hands to surface.
MOBILE DEVICES.
We already know that mobile phone are some of the filthiest items around. Touch your phone then touch the handle on the frozen food case and voila, you’ve spread the virus. Worse yet, hold your phone up to your mask and you’ve contaminated your phone or vice versa.
BEARDS
How many men do you see wearing masks over a beard? Beards render masks, even the N95 variety, useless. Huge amounts of air pass around the edges of a mask if there is no seal. This is why doctors must be clean shaven.
VENTED MASKS
Do you notice people wearing those N95 masks with the vent? These are also useless for protecting those around that person. The CDC recently warned against wearing vented masks.
DISPOSAL/DISINFECTING
Do you dispose of your paper mask after a few hours of use? (Or disinfect it for 50 minutes at 100° C?). You need to.
HANDLING
Do you remove your mask with the ear straps alone and then put it in a paper bag (not plastic or your pocket)? If not then you’re contaminating it and other things it touches.
How many people wearing masks do you think adhere to these absolutely essential protocols?
“SURGICAL” MASKS
Do your glasses fog up while using your “surgical” mask? If so then you don’t have an adequate seal and the mask is useless. Actually, it’s worse than useless for those beside or behind you because your breath is now blowing out in high velocity jets from the side toward other unsuspecting people rather than gently wafting such as with normal exhalation. Personally, I steer way clear of people wearing cheap “surgical” masks for this reason. They are a menace.
If it’s an N95 with a tight seal against the face and the wearer doesn’t touch the mask or his phone, then maybe masks would have some hope of effectiveness.
SUMMARY
100% mask compliant countries have seen increasing cases and it is very likely that the above issues are why this is the case. This assumes that properly worn N95s could inhibit the spread - which is unproven.
It is for this reason that I don’t shame non-mask wearers because I know they actually pose less risk to me than 99% of the people I see wearing and then constantly adjusting their masks.
The reality is that the typical mask-wearer is a spreader of all kinds of nasty bacteria, even if they don’t have C-19.
Take-aways:
- Potentially millions of virus particles escape the typical cloth or “surgical” mask. If someone is infected, they are spreading even with a mask on.
- Viruses and bacteria build up on masks, especially when they get moist.
- Wear N95 or better masks or not at all.
- Dispose of, or heat-disinfect the N95 mask after it has become moist.
- Don’t ever touch the mask surface and don’t let it touch anything else but the inside of a paper bag while stored.
- Shave your beard so that no whiskers or stubble can affect the seal against your face.
By the way, if you’re inclined to say wearing even a bad mask is better than nothing, that’s false. The experience in mask-compliant places like Hawaii, HK, NZ, Australia, etc. tells us otherwise.
While you make some good points, mask wearing in Australia only became mandatory in Melbourne and and another local government region hotspot on 25th July of this year, a month AFTER the second coronavirus wave. There wasn't high usage of masks beforehand. What stopped the initial coronavirus wave in countries where mask wearing was more common?
Don't assume glass fogging is totally due to a poor mask fit. While it us certainly a big factor, water molecules are smaller than oxygen and carbon dioxide molecules, so still readily pass through masks, or masks would soon become very wet inside.
Neil, while it is true that a water molecule is very small, exhaled breath contains clusters of water molecules which is why your mask eventually gets saturated and experts say to toss it at that point. The fact that masks capture water molecules in your breath is actually the argument FOR masks.
It goes like this; since the virus bonds with clusters of water molecules (clusters which obviously vary in size) then a mask can contain the virus because a mask prevents these clusters of water molecules from passing through.
Immediately we see the problem with the argument. Okay, so you’re saying that the virus is captured in the mask because viruses bind with clusters of water molecules - which can’t pass through the mask. In which case, the warning to not touch your moist mask is quite valid.
If water molecules CAN easily pass through a mask then so can the C-19 molecule (which is much smaller than the pores in most masks worn by the average person.
Either the mask stops water molecules in your breath in which case don’t touch your mask, or the virus contaminated water molecules In your breath pass right through in which case, the mask is useless.
Either way, the only hope is proper masks and proper wearing of the mask.
The Size Distribution of Droplets in the Exhaled Breath of Healthy Human Subjects
"Optical particle counter (OPC) indicated a preponderance of particles less than 1 μ"
(When ill, I would expect larger particles to be expelled through coughing and sneezing. Anyway, I would think our major concern in preventing the spread of SARS-CoV-2 would be from those who are asymptomatic.)
However, from the CDC blog on N95 Respirators and Surgical Masks, we learn that it's not pore size that's significant, In all fibrous filters, three “mechanical” collection mechanisms operate to capture particles: inertial impaction, interception, and diffusion. Inertial impaction and interception are the mechanisms responsible for collecting larger particles, while diffusion is the mechanism responsible for collecting smaller particles. In some fibrous filters constructed from charged fibers, an additional mechanism of electrostatic attraction also operates. ... This is perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of filter performance and bears repeating. Filters do NOT act as sieves.
Note: "Importantly, no documented SARS-CoV-2 outbreaks have been linked to settings in which surgical masks were assiduously used in lieu of N95 masks, which suggests that even if airborne transmission is a considerable contributor to SARS-CoV-2 transmission, surgical masks are likely sufficient to prevent it," the editorialists wrote.
Proper application, wearing and removal of masks is arguably the most important.
Your last referenced article refers to KN95 masks (as opposed to N95 masks) one of which only had 38% efficiency.
This is very topical at the moment because the UK market seems to be flooded with these things-they are being sold on amazon.co.uk and in my local chemists. The Health and Safety Executive issued a warning about these in July. It considered that a substantial number of these so-called KN95s are useless fakes. After reading the HSE info. sheet I returned mine to my local chemist.
You have some valid points BUT you’re also assuming people are wearing masks correctly when many are NOT
it is proven many many times over that mask wearing does a much better job of controlling the spread. It doesn’t protect yourself much but it minimizes people from spreading it.
You obviously still need to wear nitrile gloves and wash hands frequently as well.
Washing hands frequently and wearing mask and gloves should be mandatory for all workers in a retail environment
Masks minimize covid 19 from spreading the disease in public places obviously.
Gloves do nothing my friend, that is, unless the gloves are removed after EVERY interaction with contamination. You can’t spread the virus at any higher level from ungloved hands than from gloved. In fact, it is much more likely that people will wash their hands or use sanitizer if they are ungloved than gloved.
As for the idea that the majority of the masks you see in use help prevent spread, there is zero evidence that this is the case and plenty of evidence that they actual do great harm.
I was interested to read the comment about the Philippines and the compulsory wearing of masks and Dan is correct. I checked this in articles from CNN, Reuters, Bloomberg and the country’s own health service not twitter.
In the phillipines , Possibly In the cities but in the country it’s very unregulated. Crime is high, you can do pretty much anything you want if you have money
@Antony, I have the same problem here on the other side of the pond. I'm not bashful to appeal to their humanity, decency and conscience. I look them right in the eye and tell them I'm a high risk senior with cancer. Then they can't look at me as "the Health Police". or someone wearing a mask to make a political statement. That blunt, honest approach makes it much tougher for them to respond angrily.
Thank you very much for replying. If things are working for you, I don't want to discourage you from continuing.
However, I have decided (partly as a result of helpful feedback on this forum) to try to steer clear of any type of confrontation. Its not that easy, though (I felt tempted today!).
I braved Waitrose the other day. Just outside the entrance was a big burly bloke - your typical no-nonsense bouncer type - politely but rather grimly ushering customers in. I guess he would have the discretion, and no doubt the inclination, to turn away any maskless customer. Every supermarket should have one.
And every store manager should be telling their staff to enforce the law of the land, see gov.uk/government/publicati...
Officially, "Premises where face coverings are required should take reasonable steps to promote compliance with the law", but enforcement will remain weak in line with government messaging.
All the same, government hasn't bothered to change the law making the proprietors of any building responsible for the safety of its users - overriding grounds for complaint.
I had a naughty but rather guilty chuckle to myself the other day when a no nonsense security guard told a chap in front of me in a store to put a mask on. It was a very hot day and the chap replied, ‘I can’t stand wearing it, it’s killing me’. The guard was unmoved and replied ‘maybe so but get it put on, we don’t want you killing others!’
The guy chuntered to himself then reluctantly complied. Something tells me there’s no exceptions or allowances in there! 🤨
I saw somewhere that one person had said - 'if you don't like the mask, you're certainly not going to like a ventilator'. So very true, except it might be someone else that they infected.
With rights come responsibilities: how coronavirus is a pandemic of hypocrisy
It’s after work and you’ve gone to the supermarket to grab some ingredients for dinner. You’re tired, anxious and pretty hungry. Plus you have to put on a mask because a thousand other people are there, and social distancing is hard to enforce at this moment. Now you’re uncomfortable, on top of everything.
We all feel this way sometimes. But we tolerate it because there’s a pandemic and we all have to do our part to keep everyone safe.
Except that one person.
There’s that one person at the front of the line being asked to step out and put on a mask before coming into the shop. And they’re putting on a scene, yelling about their rights to go unmasked, to be able to breathe, to be free of oppression.
“Everyone else can wear a mask if they choose but not I,” says the person. “I have rights and I will be free.”
This is hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy is when we are inconsistent in our morality. We commonly refer to it as “saying one thing and doing another”.
Anti-maskers believe they have rights. But in refusing to wear a mask, they are denying other people the right to live in security.
I think the same issues will arise when we have a Covid vaccine. Just as there are anti-maskers now, I think there will be anti- Covid 19 vaccers in the future. They will come with up with a variety of reasons (including conspiracy theories) to support their decision not to get vaccinated. Some will think they know better than the scientists, because scientists are so often proved to be wrong and are therefore not to be trusted.
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. But I'm now fussy about the eggs I buy and really appreciate nice ones!
Suitable mask for pollutants & pathogens
Wearing a mask!
Easy breathe masks
