Exposure to Glyphosate (Round Up)? An... - CLL Support Assoc...

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Exposure to Glyphosate (Round Up)? Any one believe this could be a factor in developing Non Hodgkins Lymphoma?

In my 20s, 30s, 40s and early 50s, I used Round Up intermittently in my gardens as Round Up was my go to treatment for controlling weeds. In hindsight, not such a good choice. But at the time, I thought this product is great! I just spray it on the weeds and in the next days the weeds die. Easy Peezy.

Just curious if anyone has had exposure to this product, got CLL and their thoughts on this product as related to CLL. I was diagnosed Fall of 2018 at age 64, I have an identical twin who was never exposed or used Round Up and her blood work is normal, no CLL or related blood cancers. Blood cancer does not run in my family.

So I'm curious if anyone else thinks exposure to glyphosate could be a factor in their development of CLL?

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I have been wondering the same thing? I used it all the time as well as ant killer. I admit I probably was not as careful as I could have been about getting it on my hands or wearing a mask. But really who did? So, yeah I think it was a factor but so probably were other environmental factors.

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You could be right, but Just seems like more and more proof with Round Up and to add insult to injury, Monsanto and Bayer knowing for years there was a causal link to blood cancers and not stopping the sale of this product to gardeners and landscapers resulting in a judgement against them for $2B. Makes me not a fan of this product or these companies.

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Last year, a court ruled that glyphosate (Roundup) was responsible for causing a man's Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma and awarded him $289 million. The case was much discussed at the time as finally verifying what many have alleged for years.

reuters.com/article/us-mons...

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My spouse used round-up all around our property for 30 years with no mask face protection and he does not have CLL - but I do.

We are now using an organic pesticide and we had the weeds pulled by hand - I think it’s more likely that I was exposed (as 98 mil people were) to a contaminated polio vaccine in the mid 50’s early 60’s timeframe. This isn’t conjecture it’s a fact and you can read more about it on pubmed.

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Just think it's interesting my identical twin, whose DNA is a 100% match to mine, doesn't have this disease nor my brothers and sisters who all had polio vaccines in the 50s and 60s, none of them used round up. I did.

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If you’re twin is identical she may have a genetic predisposition to the disease but it hasn’t been triggered. The million dollar question is what are the triggers?

That question will keep you up at night.

I had identical twin friends and one became type 1 diabetic in his late 20s and the other 10 years later.

Also, not everyone received the contaminated polio vaccine and I’m sure of those that did receive it, not everyone came down with CLL or some other bone or blood cancer -

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Thanks Stretch, food for thought.

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I had the polio vaccine in the mid 50's, never knew about the contamination. I watched the A-bomb go off in the Nevada desert and my spouse has used round up for years and still does. He doesn't have cancer however I had thyroid cancer and now Cll/Sll.

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I have the same curiosity about the product causing my CLL. I used roundup at home, it was used extensively at my employment as I have mentioned in previous posts. I have been a runner for 30 years where I did most of my training on the roads, specifically on the edges of roads where the road departments sprayed heavily for weeds. I thought it was great for decreasing the chances of ticks on my runs but the degree of saturation must have been extreme since they sprayed weekly for years. Only recently have I noticed they quit using it and returned to mechanical weed removal, maybe last 2 years. Gotta be a reason for that, township insurance liability is my guess. Had been living in a plant nursery mecca where helicopters sprayed so spray drift was a certainty.

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I think it is a possibility especially after Monsanto/Bayer has withdrawn the product from the market for "reformulation".

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I think Chris (Cllcanada) wrote about this.

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He did: healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

"There is no good reason to think that glyphosate causes harm.

There is definitely no evidence that it causes cancer."

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Well...not sure it is harmless, in May 2019 a jury in Oakland, CA awarded a couple $2 billion dollars in a landmark case against Monsanto/Bayer. Monsanto/Bayer has now recalled Roundup from the market. I don't think an award of this magnitude would be based on Roundup being safe if glyphosate causes no harm.

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npr.org/2019/05/13/72305645...

This is an NPR article on the $2Billion jury award and mentions the other two large verdicts as well..

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Don't mistake jury verdicts as scientific evidence of harm:

sciencebasedmedicine.org/th...

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The $2 Billion was awarded not just on the glyphosate, but Monsanto not putting warnings on its weed killer. Also, the adjuvants and surfactants, Monsanto's secret formula, combined with the glyphosate, which causes a sticky residue and an increase in half lives are what is suspected of causing the carcinogens, the one two whammy. Glyphosate-based formulations may contain a number of adjuvants. Surfactants are used in herbicide formulations as wetting agents, to maximize coverage and aid penetration of the herbicide(s) through plant leaves.

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Glyphosate is ubiquitous in the environment, sadly and some professions have much, much higher and regular exposure to it than others, so if the risk is real, it should show up through epidemiology studies. In Australia, councils use it as a means to control weeds in public places. Farmers regularly apply it to crops and here, many farming communities rely on rainwater for drinking and washing because ground water is too saline. Hence these communities would inevitably be exposed to higher levels of ingestion from spray drift ending up on building roofs to be washed into rainwater tanks. Despite this, it still seems to be quite hard to find a causal risk:

motherjones.com/environment...

There are papers like this, from 1996, that do find a higher incidence of Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma in those exposed to glyphosate, but if there is a link, to what extent is it exacerbated by those applying it while not using personal protective equipment and smoking while applying it. I've often observed such behaviour in council workers applying it in Australia. No gloves, gown or mask used while spraying it, then stopping for a smoke break.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8...

Your case is interesting, given you have an identical twin, but given the ubiquitous level of glyphosate in the environment, you can't say that she was never exposed, but just exposed at a presumably lower level than you, particularly if she ate only organically grown produce.

I think that given the difficulty of establishing a stronger association between exposure and developing a Non Hodgkin's Lymphoma such as CLL, if glyphosate - either the active ingredient or the surfactant, etc was responsible, there would be a stronger signal.

Neil

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Thanks Neil It will be interesting to watch as the thousands of cases against Bayer/Monsanto go to trial. The World Health Organization's (WHO) cancer agency is firmly defending its finding that this widely used herbicide is "probably carcinogenic" despite reports cited by US

politicians.

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Very hard to prove direct causation or find a specific link--and I remember the tobacco companies making the exact same point a few decades ago. Also remember Monsanto stifles research and funds friendly academics, cites its own research and--as the court cases you mention proved--hides inconvenient data.

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I would hope that we have learned from our experience with tobacco companies, but even considering those points you make, I don't think we have a preponderance of members that have had increased exposure to glyphosate. Lung cancer in smokers was clearly out of proportion to that for non-smokers. In en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_...

look in particular at the pie chart in the Classification section:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:...

I may not go as far as Chris/CLLcanada in saying that "There is definitely no evidence that it causes cancer.", but if there is an increased risk, it doesn't appear to be particularly significant - certainly not to the extent that members should be concerned about whether their use of glyphosate has contributed to them developing CLL or put their families at risk.

I suspect that a considerable factor in the huge payouts awarded by juries, is due to the way Monsanto vigorously protected and promoted their product and I was surprised that Bayer purchased Monsanto, given the likelihood of such payouts, but let's be a bit more scientific than those juries.

Neil

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Hi MYPS

I am age 60 diagnosed march this year CLL early stage 1, no current symptoms

WBC 20.5. ALC 17

I have a very strong suspicion the cause of my CLL could be down to exposure to weed killer, whilst working in the lawn care industry around 2004/5, due to a leaking knap sack (spraying equipment) resulting in exposing my back getting wet from the liquid.

How long does it take, after exposure to the chemical to manifest in the body.

I also suffered a benign brain tumour in 2005, it is currently an unanswered question, my neurologists is of the opinion its not connected.?????

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The Four Corners program produced by ABC Australia put together a thought-provoking investigation about Monsanto and the health implications of Roundup.

Called the Monsanto Papers it can be found at :

topdocumentaryfilms.com/mon...

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That documentary is well worth viewing. (It's viewable in Europe and I presume the USA too.)

I lived on an Australian farm for two years recently and it was an eye-opener how much spraying is used now, but as the documentary raises towards the end, what do farmers use if glyphosate is restricted? I learned that there are far more dangerous agricultural chemicals and I gather the consensus is that organic farming can't feed the world's population. Non-organic farming really does turn petrochemicals into food, with fuel, fertiliser and sprays all derived from or heavy users of petrochemical feedstock. Prior to spraying becoming the standard way of controlling weeds, soil tilling was used, which resulted in the loss of Australia's already thin top soils. There is no easy answer.

Neil

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ahhh yes Monsanto, the same company that reassured us that agent orange was safe. glyphosate is a brutal chemical.

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There has already been a settlement in court that seems to prove that fact. I am currently being represented by a law group as I am a candidate. I lived on a small farm and used Roundup regularly before diagnosis. Never thought it had any connection until the last few years. If it did cause my NHL then I need to know.

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A settlement in court does not prove anything one way or the other. It's just a reflection that the party taken to court considers that their best outcome option is to settle for an agreed amount, rather than risk paying legal defense fees for an indeterminate amount of time and then possibly ending up paying unknown damages that could tally hundreds of millions of dollars. The place for determining rigorous science is not in the court room. How many lawyers and jurors have science degrees?

Neil

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most of the scientists that have "no skin in the game", feel that glyphosate is a carcinogen.

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References? Specific CLL references?

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I have not seen "specific to cll"....my wording was "carcinogen" The WHO states "probably carcinogenic to humans”. as you are probably aware the WHO are not quick to make statements even close to "probable", several Countries have banned its use.

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I'm very glad you clarified this, because what this entire post is lacking is perspective. If you check out the list of substances classified by the WHO as 'probably carcinogenic to humans' it also includes very hot beverages >65C, but no one is worrying whether drinking hot tea or coffee caused their CLL! Consumption of red meat is also in the same list. Do we sue farmers too?

cancer.org/cancer/cancer-ca...

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Cool off my friend...we all have a level of frustration with what we are dealing with...just relax! We are all trying to head in the right direction.

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Thank you, now we are beginning to quantify the risk and it is small as I anticipated. From your article we have the reported 2018 study of more than 54,000 people who work as licensed pesticide applicators. The team determined that exposure to glyphosate may increase the risk of Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma by as much as 41 percent.

So in other words, if you worked in this or a similar role, your risk of developing a Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma is somewhere between ? and 41% greater than if you weren't working in such an occupation. If, as is usually the case, the risk increases with exposure, for those of us using glyphosate in a domestic situation (presumably that's most of us) we would be hard pressed to be able to assign the cause of our CLL to glyphosate exposure. That's assuming that CLL is included in the NHL types more likely to develop through glyphosate exposure.

Of relevance here is Exposure to benzene, which is classified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) as a Group 1 carcinogen, (which) has been concluded to cause acute myeloid leukemia (AML)...

Benzene is also a suspect lymphomagen based on positive associations with non-Hodgkin lymphoma (NHL) overall or with specific NHL subtypes observed in some occupational cohort and case–control studies, although the strength of the evidence is not as strong as the association with AML. (My emphasis).

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

For CLL, despite the increased use of glyphosate since the mid 2000's, the number of cases in the USA has been trending down since 2010 and has been fairly stable at a rate of roughly between 4 and 5 cases per 100,000 population since 1975!

seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/h...

(You need to check the table for the incidence of CLL prior to 1992.)

Roundup/glyphosate was introduced to the agricultural market in 1974, so given the usual time delay in the development of cancer, particularly a chronic cancer like CLL, if glyphosate is responsible for CLL to any degree, why aren't we seeing an increase in cases?

Neil

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thanks Neil

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For the record, I don't like the way I appear to be coming across as a shill for Monsanto/Bayer. What I am really concerned about is tackling bad science. You can't determine whether or not glyphosate causes cancer through emotional appeal and the legal system is not the means to establish the degree of risk associated with the application of glyphosate and any residues that enter our food chain. The business practices of Monsanto and how they defend their patents are a separate matter.

Neil

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Neil I agree with you that court room is not the place for scientific exploration.

The science is black and white, but doesn’t look into all kinds of areas like how the companies inform the public about risks, possible consequences and cover ups.

That is what court process is for and sometimes we the public find out what some companies knew all along and covered up.

The time will show with Ground up, which I used regularly for years.

Dana

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I used Roundup very sparingly ages ago, mostly hand weeding and have hand weeded solely for about 10 years out of concern for the environment and my family's health as a precautionary measure. I have probably used less than one bottle of Roundup in my entire life.

We are already seeing how Monsanto operated through what's been released in earlier court cases, some of which is covered in the ABC Four Corners documentary. As I said earlier, I'm not as convinced as Chris was that glyphosate can't cause cancer. There is some uncertainty about NHL specifically and CLL is a NHL. However I think that if there was a significant risk, it would be more obvious.

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Hello Aussie

I agree will your approach, there is not a proven link between Roundup and CLL. I spent many years as consultant to law firms, some of which were what I call "train cases". Once a law firm wins a case against "deep pockets", they try the same cases over and over again using same legal briefs. Good example was the tobacco jury awards in USA several years ago, jury award was $365 billion. My US State obtained $3-4 billion of that. The 12 lawyers who prepared case on retainer from AG of my state, were paid $2 billion for their services. The outcry over the pay-out reduced pay-out to $500 million. Only 2-3% of the money received was actually used for anti-smoking adds and etc.

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"In March 2015, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), a research arm of the World Health Organization (WHO) considered the global gold standard for carcinogenicity studies, reclassified glyphosate as a "probable carcinogen" (Class 2A),4,5 based on "limited evidence" showing the weed killer can cause Non-Hodgkin lymphoma and lung cancer in humans, and "convincing evidence" linking it to cancer in animals."

3 of the scientist who did this study also worked with the EPA and stated that the EPA's study that basically backed Bayer/Monsanto was full of inconsistencies. Something triggers these types of Lymphomas. It is not hereditary. Something triggered within my body that cause this to happen. If that happened to be a weed killer agent then so be it. But if proven to be a cause or even a higher risk then that entity should at least pay for our medical cost that we incur from possibly using their product. That is called liability!

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DDay, thank you for this information, more to think about. Maggie

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As I pointed out elsewhere, included in the list of probable causes of cancer which includes glyphosate, are red meat and hot drinks (>65C). It's not a strong association, only probable.

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California juries? Ugh, Trying to create an industry? Folks getting distracted

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Hello MYPS

I have my doubts that intermittent use of Roundup causes CLL. You will see a lot of hype on TV in USA by law firms trying to cash in. The adds speak about Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma. The recent California jury award of $79 million was not for CLL, but a very rare type of NHL and the man was a maintenance grounds keeper who used a lot of Roundup and had multiple open lesions on his skin which made a very visual impact with jury. The more scrupulous law firm adds will target commercial users of Roundup. Years ago some French researchers developed a link between glyphosate and cancer on mice.

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I have experienced the exact same thing. We had a farm and I used RoundUp routinely. There is also no blood cancer in my family. Paula

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Hi MYPS,

I understand your suspicions re Round Up. It's interesting that your identical twin does not have CLL, whereas you do. I think we have to keep open to the possibility that exposure to glyphosate may be a factor in triggering CLL.

However, at the moment it doesn’t seem that the science is there, to prove it one way or another.

Neil makes some good points re the dilemmas farmers face, and that so many things can be carcinogenic, including sunshine, overly hot drinks and red meat.

There are a few exceptions but it's usually impossible to know for sure, what caused individual cases of CLL. A large proportion have genetic causes and there’s nothing we can do about that.

In my own case, it does seem to be genetical, as my uncle and cousin also have it. But no other family members have, so it doesn’t look like a very strong link. Maybe my uncle, cousin and I encountered some extra “trigger” at some point, that set it off.

My husband grew up on a farm, where all his family had a LOT of exposure to Round Up, for many years. None of them had cancer of any sort. His parents both lived till their nineties. His mother is still alive and still using Round Up in her garden.

Monsanto have got such a bad reputation, for valid reasons, that I can understand people thinking the worst of them for everything. Emotions come into it and have a big sway. In time, maybe Glyphosate and/or other chemicals (especially excessive use of them), WILL be shown to trigger CLL, but for now, I don't think we can be sure.

Having said that, hubby and I are both very careful to avoid contact with the Round Up in his mother’s garden… just in case…

Paula

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Paula, I am on the same page as you. Thanks for your great response. Maggie

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Thanks all for weighing in, this is an interesting discussion and for those of us who used Roundup for a period of time it will be interesting to watch the outcomes of the thousands of trials now waiting to be decided against Monsanto/Bayer. My purpose for posing this discussion thread was to hear from all who had experience. The discussions have been very enlightening. We are all exposed to environmental hazards. I just wonder if exposure to Roundup tipped the scale for some of us. Thank you.

My research: The link between Roundup and cancer is not just about glyphosate. Roundup is made up of other ingredients that are toxic in and of themselves, and they also work synergistically to increase the toxicity of glyphosate. Monsanto has known this for many years but still refuses to study the link between cancer and the formulated Roundup product people actually use. Monsanto scientists have concluded that glyphosate is capable of producing genotoxicity both in vivo and in vitro by a mechanism based upon the production of oxidative damage. Oxidative damage to DNA can lead to cancer. These are the landmark cases already decided:

Completed Monsanto Roundup Cancer Trials

1) Johnson v. Monsanto began on 6/18/18 and ended on 8/10/2018 with a $289M verdict, later reduced to $78M. (First ever trial/CA state trial)

2) Hardeman v. Monsanto began on 2/25/2019 and ended on 3/27/2019 with a $80M verdict. (First federal trial)

3) Pilliod et al., v. Monsanto – began on 3/28/2019 and ended on 5/13/2019 with a $2.055 billion verdict. (First CA JCCP trial)

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How will we ever know for sure?

I am convinced from what I have determined to be credible study that there is no doubt that certain agents influence cancers. However, there is so much evidence on either side, and both sides load their statistics in such a way that it is difficult to trust the accuracy of the information.

There are instances of people getting confirmed diagnosis based on minimal chemical exposure over short periods while individuals that are exposed to large amounts of the same chemicals over long periods never show any affect.

Not to support any poor behavior; Yet I know of people who drink and smoke excessively, eat poorly, expose themselves to careless hazardous environments from a young age to beyond 70 and live without apparent consequence. I also know those who from a young age that eat well, exercise regularly and live healthy structured lives, yet they end up with the least probable cancer for their habits, e.g. marathon runners and cyclists with lung cancer.

I think it is more relevant if one can define within reason that there is an individual relationship rather than a corporate probability for a product causing cancer.

JM

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I originally wasted a lot of time trying to pin down a cause for my CLL. Was it because I taught in smoggy Los Angeles in a school tucked in the corner of two major freeways? Was it that cancers run in my family? Could it be because I now live on a farm where Round up is used regularly, or maybe it goes back to Seven Dust and other pesticides considered safe at one time. Maybe it has to do with the flea products i’ve used on pets, or the fact that my father was a chain smoker. I could go on, and did in the past, when newly diagnosed. It got me nowhere. What is, is.

My biggest issue with roundup is that we are killing off out bee population. No bees, no pollination, no food. It’s time for us to get real about climate change, pollution, and the serious distruction we are doing to our planet - not other people, but each of us. What are you doing to make this planet a safe place for future generations? We can’t change the fact that we have CLL, but we can work to make this planet a safe place for future generations.

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I agree with you on what factors tip the scale and the effect on the environment. I do feel these law suits are a wake up call for Monsanto/Bayer and their products impact on humans and the environment. Hopefully Monsanto/Bayer will listen and make changes in their formulations and product information. One big step for the world if they do change.

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***YES! *** I definitely used a lot of Round up for the past 20-25 years. I used to say if I die young consider that I had "RUP", round up poisoning. I have beautiful gardens which my friends call Janwood Gardens after nearby Longwood Gardens. I used it and got it on my skin but I would wash it off afterwards. I presently use it a little bit but I am covered up and have a mask and gloves. Over the years I know that it was used extensively at Longwood Gardens (famous garden in Pennsylvania), because it was considered so safe.

The interesting thing is that I asked the same question of the group a few years ago and I think that no one said they had been heavily exposed to round up. I also notice that today's post only has three of us who say we used it alot. So I would think that most people with CLL are somehow involved with this blog and yet they are not coming forward in any huge numbers saying that they were big gardeners or exposed in other ways.

Now, the other interesting thing is that the TV commercials that I often see on my TV are ads for lawyers who will sue for CLL caused by Round up. Yes - I believe my google history is known to advertisers... So almost daily and sometimes more often I see these commercials. However, recently the wording has changed to "professionally exposed to Round up" so they are only calling on patients who were professional agricultural or landscape workers. I guess someone who worked at "Janwood gardens" is now not considered eligible.

PS it is still being sold at Lowes and Home Depots near me, but not at COSTCO.

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The $2B award was to non professionals, a couple in their 70s who garden at their home.

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Los Angeles just banned it's use.

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I have used roundup for years. I recently diagnosed with CLL. Early stage...doctor is watching blood work.

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Ll So sorry about your diagnosis, this is the link to the website of the latest award for exposure to RoundUp by non professionals (me). This website answered a lot of my questions. baumhedlundlaw.com/toxic-to... Maggie

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