I am writing here because I do not know who to turn to. I had one very visible SA and some faint ones. The faint ones are now very visible and large. So I now have 6 large SA. I can’t go to my GP or start tests again. I spent 6 months last year undergoing tests after tests after tests. I told my husband this morning and while he is always reluctant to acknowledge any of my symptoms he agreed I do have more SA. My last Fibroscan was 4.88 Kia which is higher than 1 year ago. I could repeat my ELF test but I am probably too scared to (9.2 last year). I see myself dying little by little and there is nothing I can do about it. No help just despair until it is too late. Gosh, I wish I had never drunk a drop of alcohol. Those supposedly good times were not worth the trauma I am going through.
Huge Spider Angiomas: I am writing here... - British Liver Trust
Huge Spider Angiomas
Hi and sorry for what you’re going through, I have several SA myself, a few were really visible, but all of them have now become very faint and I swear are even disappearing. My hep doctor wasn’t concerned about them for some reason, although I was as they are associated with portal hypertension which I’m told I do not have so I assume mine were mostly alcohol damage related and the longer I stay abstinent it does seem the weaker they become. Hopefully yours will too, good luck and take care.
thank you Grassroots112 for taking the time to answer me. I saw a prof hep who was not concerned either. But these are now more visible. I have been abstinent for 16 months so I do not understand why my symptoms are more pronounced. The Dr have said I do not have cirrhosis but given the SA I just can’t believe them. And my last FB was higher than last year (4.88 vs 3.33). I know it’s still relatively low but everything points to a deterioration of my health. And apart from having a healthy lifestyle it seems there is nothing else I can do. Just wait for the inevitable.
I was admitted to hospital in March ‘23 with likely decompensated cirrhosis with Jaundice and ascites, I’ve been sober since and now they are stating I likely have moderate fibrosis after my most recent fibroscan returned a 9kpa reading, down from a previous 22.2.
Clean healthy living has saw my health and liver improve massively and while they don’t seem to want to diagnose me, I too think I have cirrhosis, but it’s borderline and I’m more than well compensated (I have my own thoughts on that) hence why I have some symptoms still of cirrhosis, SA being one of them.
That said, we don’t know what long term alcohol damage can do to the body. We know what it can do to the liver, but I’m finding out the long lasting effects of alcoholism on the body can be far worse than on the liver if which by stopping drinking it can repair itself, heal and stay functioning.
For example I have terrible neuropathy in my feet which my doctor has diagnosed as alcoholic neuropathy and said there is no cure and it will likely get worse. Cutting out booze has worked wonders for my liver, but my body is still bearing the scars so to speak with my neuropathy and sometimes aches and pains and muscle wasting.
I believe my SA was both liver and alcohol related and is now mainly a long lasting effect of alcohol damage which does seem to be getting better the longer I stay sober so I’m hoping in a few years time there will be no SA. I had over 5, some very prominent, the two main ones have faded and seem to be disappearing with every week or month.
Hopefully the longer you stay l hook free and eat healthy and get regular exercise yours too will. I no longer consider SA as a massive red flag for cirrhosis in terms of a symptom of cirrhosis, it’s likely a sign of liver damage of course and also alcoholism damage to the body.
It’s a symptom of portal hypertension, but so are varies and other complications, which I don’t have so again my hep doctor is assuming they are alcohol damage related hence why he’s not too concerned about them. I also have what would be described as Terry’s nails and I did have a droopy right enlarged breast which again is a sign of portal hypertension and or cirrhosis, it’s now returning back to normal. Could that have also been alcohol damage related? Who knows, I do know it’s a side effect of taking diuretics too which I was prescribed with for a while when in hospital and after discharge to deal with my ascites.
In short the damage alcohol does to our bodies long term can be huge, varied and may take a great deal of time to recover from, if at all. Good luck and take care.
You are doing brilliantly. You must keep up the amazing work you are doing. Your experience is giving me hope. The prof hep I saw said that SA are not specific to liver damage. But every article I read said they are a symptom of cirrhosis. My Fibroscan score, while still low, has increased since last year. All of this worries me greatly. The prof hep said my tests results are good, that it is unlikely all of them would be false negative but that no one can 100% prove or disprove that I have or haven't got cirrhosis (he won’t do a biopsy as he thinks I do not have cirrhosis, nothing serious with me and he also thinks I won’t believe the redults).. I binged drink for so long, having fun at parties, not realising the damage I was doing to my body. That was idiotic. Now I am paying the price, mentally and physically. Take care
Thank you and believe me so are you if you have managed to cut out drinking for so long and now lead a healthy lifestyle, that alone will not just do wonders for your liver’s health, but your physical and mental health too, despite your current worries.
Its obvious you are very anxious over this and again it’s easier said than done to try and remain calm, but if your doctors are saying you don’t have cirrhosis and a number of tests carried out are negative that puts you into a good position which by remaining sober and carrying on leading a healthy lifestyle should help you remain that way with a positive outlook in regards to your health.
My own SA were obviously liver related, or certainly not helped by having a damaged liver, but the more I learn the more I’m leaning towards them being from the damaged caused by my alcoholism and I’m hoping the longer I go abstinent the damage done to my body will decrease, disappear or never get any worse.
My last liver fibroscan was 9.8 up from a 9, my doctor doesn’t seem concerned and thinks between that and the one before that, it’s probably more accurately at a 9.5 so it likely hasn’t went up. They look for consistency of results and the key for me is keeping it below a ten which I’m confident of doing.
I believe I have a form of cirrhosis because I actually did have jaundice, ascites and other symptoms which hospitalised me. They initially described it as acute liver failure brought on by alcohol hepatitis.
I was drinking myself to death and wouldn’t have lived long had I not went in when I did into hospital. My liver has remodelled itself remarkably well since I stopped the very thing that was attacking it, the alcohol and crap diet and lack of exercise which it can do and if not scarred badly any fibrosis can even be reversed fully as can a fatty liver .
Today my own opinion on where my liver is at is that it’s obviously compensated, but if I could scale compensated cirrhosis from a 1-5 for example I’d say mine is maybe a 1 or 2.
The doctors describe cirrhosis as compensated or decompensated and that’s it which is accurate, but like stages of fibrosis, I believe the two stages of cirrhosis can have stages of their own as well. Borderline cirrhosis for example would be where I’d put my own liver at.
My doctor won’t commit to that and rightly go off what my fibroscan says, my bloods and my US scans which to all intents and purposes reveal a scarred liver (fibrosis is scarring) that is now working “as it should” - his words.
I can’t comment on your own test results or wether you have cirrhosis or not as I’m not a doctor and I’ve learned some people with cirrhosis or with advanced liver disease can have normal bloods and even have MRs and fibroscan results that say otherwise, but I’d honestly listen to what your doctors are saying and try and remain calm based on that and just carry on staying alcohol free, eating a healthy diet and hopefully your SA will disappear one day like mine appearing to be doing. That and it will continue to show you don’t have cirrhosis.
Hi what is sa
Spider Angioma or Spider Nevus which are basically red blood dots with spider legs that vary in size which when pressed will disappear for a few seconds, only to return again, usually found on the upper chest, face, neck arms and back. I had one on my knuckle oddly enough, but most were on my back. Usually associated with portal hypertension and varices and if you have more than a few it could be a sign of liver disease. That said, they are quite common in healthy people even of all age ranges male or female and usually go away or are painless and harmless or so I’m told. I’m learning they can develop in heavy drinkers and alcoholics as well. Mine are/were likely because of liver damage and alcohol damage combined.
Hi, please get some help, would you speak to the British liver trust nurses speaking to them might help you then you might not feel like there is nothing you can do about it, cause they will or try to advice you which may help with the way you are feeling,
My thoughts are with you take care
Thank you Orangutan_lover. I spoke to the nurses in the past. They said that the tests I had showed no cirrhosis and to trust the doctors. I wish I could. Tc
What tests have you had to rule out cirrhosis and what other symptoms did you have or currently have if you don’t mind me asking? I’ve had MRIs, US, fibroscan and blood tests and none have come back conclusive one way or another where they can say yea you have cirrhosis, no you don’t. They now just state moderate fibrosis, but my liver is scarred which I know that is what fibrosis is and not even a biopsy could be accurate enough to say yay or nay.
Basically I’m told to keep doing what I’m doing and they will monitor me every six months for the time being, but that my liver is more than well compensated and my prognosis is excellent.
My first MRI stated extreme fatty liver, enlarged spleen and liver, mild ascites, then I started turning yellow and went into hospital where my bloods were off the charts. GGT in the thousands for example, ALT, AST, ALP the hundreds. Ultra sound scans have revealed jagged edges on my liver but a smooth liver overall that is now normal in size as is my spleen and I haven’t had ascites since nor jaundice. My bloods are all now not just within a normal range but the better side of what’s normal.
One thing that is common with those with cirrhosis is low platelets and I mean sometimes extremely low, below 150 and a higher than normal INR above 1.0/1.1/1,2. Have you had that checked out? Try and remain calm and positive which is easier said than done I know, I freaked out over my SA at first as they only appeared after I quit drinking, but I trust my own doctor when he says he’s not concerned about them, that and my own research that has revealed they could also be alcohol damage related, even age related like so-called liver spots as we get older, there is also confusion over what SA is exactly and how to characterise them. Oh and congrats on the 16 months sobriety, that’s amazing, you should be proud of yourself and it’s great hearing stuff like this. Take care.
I have had multiple tests. In 2021 a US detected gallbladder polyps (I requested a test as I had pain on the right side of the abdomen). 2022 I went private for an MRI which came back normal. 2023, was the most atrocious year as I had a breakdown and started a battery of tests; 4 Fibroscans including shearwave elastography (all about 3.3), LFTs (all normal), ELF (9.2 which is not that reassuring but Dr said it was fine - Gastro who ordered test, I also started consulting a prof hep in parallel for second opinion. Prof said he doesn’t use ELF), CT scan, more US, endoscopy, colonoscopy. Platelets were actually high, too high (over 550). But I had COVID so maybe that was why.. IRN was fine, Fib-4 too. US shows a perfect liver. I had one a few weeks ago for the gallbladder polyps and report said all good and normal. But Prof hep said no one can prove or disprove I have cirrhosis! He thinks I don’t have it but I don’t believe him or the gastro. Because cirrhosis is hard to diagnose.
Symptoms: SA, start of nail clubbing (hands and big toe), one toe nail has stopped growing and is very bumpy, the other is growing strangely, lots of tiny veins on the chin (twice in the past I had a strange blue/violet chin as if I had knocked myself - it lasted about a day each time), no libido, infrequent pain on right side of abdomen and right shoulder, strange stools that vary in consistency one day to the next… I realised something was wrong when I started getting a fever after drinking too much at a party. Then my skin on the face started breaking out and be very red every time I had an alcoholic drink.. And the thirst at night would be terrible. I started to properly worry when I read that a black toenail could be cirrhosis (I had a black toe nail!) It wasn’t an injury. I put all the pieces together and started my journey to hell.
I get that I do not have any major symptoms but what I have is seen in liver damage and liver disease is a silent disease. My last Fibroscan a few weeks ago was higher at 4.88. I contacted prof hep who said to repeat test next year at the earliest. He doesn’t seem worried but doctors never are. It’s not their health at stake (this prof hep I must say is the most thoughtful and kind doctor I have ever encountered, truly remarkable in his humanity). But why would the Fibroscan score go up when I have completely stopped drinking since April 23? I do have the occasional 0.05% Prosecco (which prof hep said was fine) but now I have stopped as I am worried it is bad. I am on antidepressants which I stopped for about 2 weeks but I have had to start again as my anxiety went through the roof. But I do not know what it is doing to my liver.
I drank too much for 30 years, took a lot of medicine (Prozac, strong antibiotics for TB, medicine for fungal nail infection) while still partying. I thought I was normal intelligence so why did I not realise I was hurting my body. I don’t mind at all not drinking. I much prefer going out and waking up fresh. If only I had discovered that 30 years ago,
Sorry for the long response. Take care.
It seems you’ve had a whole host of tests done then which is good and frankly, all are basically revealing that you DO NOT have cirrhosis so I’d honestly forget about this idea in your head that you may have cirrhosis which I know is hard for you right now because of your anxiety over your health which is obviously causing you a great deal of stress and suffering.
Those numbers are great, however, and many on here would kill to have such numbers and imaging results saying everything is fine. My own fibroscan score is over double your own, it can go up and down as mine has, again they look for a pattern of consistency. If yours had shot up from 3.3 to a 9.3 for example then that would be cause for concern so your doctor suggesting repeating the test in a year’s time makes sense. Again I know that’s not going to ease your anxiety, but while you may not trust them they can only go off the totality of results which all point to you not having cirrhosis.
My own doctor has said cirrhosis can be hard to detect in the very early stages and it’s difficult to diagnose in some cases where someone is suffering with acute liver failure through alcoholism or alcohol hepatitis like I initially was because the damage can mimic cirrhosis, it’s only when the root cause of the damage is stopped and the liver has a chance to calm down so to speak can a better picture be formed. That’s why most people with alcohol hepatitis aren’t given a fibroscan at the start because a false reading will likely occur due to the inflammation of the liver.
Some get lucky and only have advanced liver disease once the liver has calmed down from such an attack on the liver which can be reversed or partially reversed, some end up having cirrhosis sadly.
Myself I’m kind of in between right now in terms of diagnosis. I hope my liver just keeps on recovering so it becomes abundantly clear I don’t have cirrhosis. Things like SA, clubbing, red palms, so-called liver pain, Terry’s nails etc. while all alarming and rightly needing investigated are not clear and obvious signs of cirrhosis or even liver disease.
It’s major symptoms like ascites, jaundice, HE, varices, muscle wasting, portal hypertension, bleeding and so on that are all clear and obvious signs of advanced liver disease and cirrhosis, all of which your bloods and imaging will pretty much tally with if you had one or any of those symptoms.
You are doing the right thing by quitting drinking remaining abstinent for so long and being concerned about your health, which will make sure you should remain in good health by continuing that. You maybe need to see a doctor regarding some of the symptoms and issues you are experiencing still to try and get to the bottom of this, but you can rule out cirrhosis as your doctors clearly have and are.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I’d perhaps focus more on your health anxiety and if you can see someone about that because it’s clearly upsetting you and isn’t healthy for you and can actually bring about symptoms especially skin related as stress can trigger rashes for example. I feel for you because it’s a horrible thing to have to suffer with regardless of your actual health status which in terms of your liver appears to be fine and certainly in no way indicative of advanced liver disease much less cirrhosis. Good luck and take care.
Many many people have told me I need to see a therapist. The gastro I saw last year said in his discharge letter that I needed help with my mental health and anxiety.
The SA have very much subsidised this morning. They are still here but very faint. Yesterday I picked at them which made them far more visible.
I will try to put my worries at the back of my head. But I am still 100% convinced something is not right with my liver. All I can do for now is continue with my healthy living journey.
I hope you continue to feel better and that your liver continues to improve. You seem to have a good outlook on life and to be doing all you can to help yourself. I need to take a leaf out of your book.
Thanks so much for your messages. I greatly appreciate you sharing your experience and trying to help. Take care
That’s the best thing you can do - continuing your healthy living, and in time I hope it will also help you with your mental health anxiety which is a real thing that people sadly suffer with and can be an awful condition in itself. I can’t offer any advise on that other than to try and focus on the good stuff like your abstinence which you deserve massive credit for and should be extremely proud of, healthy eating, regular exercise and try not to worry to much about your liver.
Again it’s good that you have been proactive at looking into you health and even going private to get tests carried out, we should all be as proactive as we can be in terms of our own health, but please remember what the experts are telling you when it comes to your liver because you don’t want to live a life of constant worry.
Trust me, for a year almost my liver was all that I thought about and totally consumed me to the point any new mark appearing on my body had to be my liver for example so every day I was examining my entire body and worrying constantly. It’s draining, depressing and not healthy. I had that on top of wanting to drink constantly which thankfully subsided where today I barely even think about that or my liver and try and live my life the best I can, worry and stress free knowing my clean healthy living is keeping my body healthy and importantly my mind too. When my doctors get worried that’s when I will be and they are far from it.
Take care
You should be very proud of your accomplishments. I will do my best to be positive. Take care
aww bless ya, sorry I’m new to all this so Im not much help, I have not been out of hospital for 6 months yet my first appointment with the consultant is on the 20th so will see what my results will come out at, however I am positive and staying positive about the results, I have what I call red spider spots I didn’t know the name of them before I saw your post, mine were red but know I can see they have faded a lot I feel they will go away, take care chin up and keep moving forward
Good luck with your appointment. Stay positive, it’s the best way to be (if only my brain would let me be). Take care
thank you, you to take care, I will still watch out to see how you are doing
I'm sorry for your distress...I hardly ever drank alcohol but still got Non alcohol Cirrhosis....please see your consultant or liver specialist nurse....they may be able to help.
I am sorry to read this. Hopefully though, now you have a diagnosis you have a route to recovery. I am not under the care of anyone. All doctors discharged me. I just email prof hep when I need to and he is kind enough to respond.
Dear Foi24
As mentioned above, if you are in the UK and would find it useful to talk things over, our nurse-led helpline is open Monday to Friday from 9am to 3pm on 0800 652 7330 (excluding bank holidays)
Best wishes
British Liver Trust
Not what you're looking for?
You may also like...
ALP and GGT
NAFLD Question
pain relief
Newbie support
Non-alcoholic fatty liver - Borderline FibroScan score F3, 11.4 kpa with quality study 12% (good quality), how long am I going to live?
Endoscopy
Shocked and confused about gallbladder result
Questions about Cirrhosis Prognosis
