walking and spine

[Radars]

I have been watching a margaret Martin video which she says walking and stair climbing stops at the hips and does nothing for the lumbar spine,

[Kaarina]

Looking on the brighter side which I always try to do, for my well being and sanity, continuing whatever kind of exercising we are capable of achieving is better that doing none. We can only do our best.

[HappyGranny55 in reply to Kaarina]

I agree! This diagnosis can do a number on our mental health, and walking is my way of clearing the gunk from my cluttered mind. I make a point of walking with intent….good posture, fast pace and solid ground strike, hoping the impact will travel straight up my whole body🤞

[Hidden in reply to HappyGranny55]

I read about your experience with OsteoStrong and am thinking about checking them out in my city (Toronto, Ontario). Possibly the osteogenic loading equipment they use at ten minutes a session could help improve my T-scores; I'm willing to gamble $ to try. Wondering if you went back to them after your initial visit? Do they ask for a six month membership?

[HappyGranny55 in reply to Hidden]

I have never used osteostrong. I am intrigued by the premise of loading, but feel they do not back up their claims with solid scientific research.

[LM100]

I think it is quite difficult to do weight bearing exercise on the spine, especially if you already have breaks. However, the muscles around the hips/top of legs help to stabilise the spine and protect from injury so it is important to keep them strong.

[HealthELiving]

Does she cite studies and evidence or is this a marketing effort to sell a product? It seems counter to many articles based upon studies I have read but if it is proven through qualified studies, then it is important to know. I have taken up rowing on a machine - studies show it has benefits for the spine.

[Raleigh59 in reply to HealthELiving]

I agree she does a big marketing for the $3000 vibration plate.

What is the best gym machine for the spine?

[HealthELiving in reply to Raleigh59]

I am basing my activity on spine density and gym machines from this study. If anyone has more info, please do share! We all learn together and get stronger.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[HealthELiving in reply to HealthELiving]

another sidebar- although this article refers to whole body vibration, it is vibration nontheless. the brand here is capable of delivering the same 30hz and amp as the one we are discussing. womenshealth.obgyn.msu.edu/...

[buddy99 in reply to HealthELiving]

Ah, here is the study! Thanks.

[buddy99 in reply to HealthELiving]

Oh, that is good news about the rowing. I have done that as a warm up before weight training. Never thought it might do anything for my bones as well, especially the spine. If you have the studies handy, that would be great. I'm always interested in studies. If not, I might be able to find them myself. In any case, I'm very happy to go back to the rowing machine in a couple of hours. Thanks for the info.

[wellness1 in reply to HealthELiving]

Hi and thanks for the links you've provided. I look forward to looking at them. I appreciate the sharing of information and experiences here.

In trying to educate myself about bone health, I've found Margaret Martin to be a very valuable resource. She has decades of experience and offers sensible advice, often citing research studies to back up her claims. Yes, she sells books and videos and charges for private sessions, but that's her livelihood. What impresses me is how much information she provides at no cost. There are other good resources such as Sarah Meeks, Sherri Betz, and of course the ROS. I am impressed by the depth and range of free advice Margaret Martin offers. She's careful to direct people to medical advice when that is appropriate. She also has free videos on her YouTube channel wherein she interviews experts on an array of bone health topics. I'm not an expert on all her materials. I've dipped in and out of her videos and website for information useful to me. I have seen instances when she's recommended a product and I hope she is always transparent about any financial consideration she receives. Then we're free to judge how much this influences her recommendations and how much they are a product (pun intended) of her expertise and experience. On balance her materials don't come across as commercial.

Wrt the topic of this post, on the Weight Bearing Exercise section of her website she writes,

Weight bearing exercises, including hiking, walking, running, and dancing, generate ground reaction forces. But, do these activities provide enough ground action force to reach the spine? A 2002 meta-analysis looked into this question.

The research team looked at thirteen studies. The studies reported bone mineral density scores in the spine. They compared the bone mineral densities of the control groups with exercise groups.

The spine scores of the exercise groups were higher than those of the control groups. This shows that your spine benefits from weight bearing exercise. (17)

In her video Is Walking a Weight Bearing Exercise? she goes over some requirements in order for walking to benefit osteoporosis, citing some research. It's available on YouTube and is embedded in the article on her website that I mentioned.

melioguide.com/weight-beari...

[Radars in reply to wellness1]

yeah, but in her video she said walking doesn't strengthen the spine.

[wellness1 in reply to Radars]

Hi radars, she has several videos on walking so I'm not sure which one you looked at. Do you remember the title? In the one I mentioned, Is Walking a Weight Bearing Exercise? she gave some requirements for walking to benefit osteoporosis, like how fast you walk, for example.

[Radars in reply to wellness1]

thanks, so for me would it be ok too use just a 5lb weight for weight training, I have a mild to moderate wedge compression fracture of t12. it's all confusing what you can and can't do.

[wellness1 in reply to Radars]

I agree, it can be confusing. Were you given any guidance after your diagnosis? I can see that you're really trying to help yourself. I'm definitely not qualified to advise you. I think you would benefit from professional advice. Could your doctor refer you to a physiotherapist specifically trained for this? I know Margaret Martin recently did a video on Compression Fractures and Exercise. She interviewed Matteo Ponzano, author of a recent article in the Journal of Sports Medicine, Exercise and Physical Activity After Vertebral Compression Fracture. They stressed how important it is to go about exercise safely and appropriately and how desirable it is to work with someone with specific training.

[CallMeSunny in reply to wellness1]

This is why the Versus Arthritis or NHS YouTube exercises specific to Osteoporosis/Osteoarthritis/Rheumatoid Arthritis are so so helpful; experts demonstrating moves, correct advice for our conditions AND they don’t try to sell you anything! Free to view….extremely worthwhile,

[wellness1 in reply to CallMeSunny]

Thank you for recommending other resources that you've found helpful,  CallMeSunny . I'm not a spokesperson for Margaret Martin! I weighed in because radars mentioned her in his post and a member asked whether she cites evidence. In fact, that's one of the things I really like about her. She often cites research studies and has done so on the topic of this post. But as we know, the quality of research is variable and also has to be looked at. If someone endorses a product that can raise a flag and should be looked at. For me, in the case of Margaret Martin, it doesn't undermine the quality of her exercise advice. To the contrary, I think it's her extensive experience and expertise that informs her recommendations. But the recommendations are easy enough to ignore, as they are not intrusive and are often in response to people's questions..

She's not the last word on any subject and it's helpful that there are multiple good sources of information available at no cost from fully qualified professionals. This way we can all find the ones we like best and trust. Thanks for adding your yours.

[Kitchenbuddy]

I believe the body will benefit from walking as a whole to help strengthen muscle and increase endurance. You can wrap light ankle weights for strength. Our body is connected to all its parts. What ever exercise we do is better than nothing at all. Best of Health.

[Radars in reply to Kitchenbuddy]

yeah, I have some osteoarthritis in my hip so it would be a bit dodgy adding weight when I go for my daily walk or I would.

[Raleigh59]

I feel like the Margaret expert lady only wants us to buy the vibration plate and offers no other good solutions?

[Fruitandnutcase in reply to Raleigh59]

I have never felt like that about Margaret. She is a registered physiotherapist with a lot of knowledge about osteoporosis and she my ‘go to ‘ person online for sensible and sound advice on exercise and all things osteoporosis.

A lot of other sources of exercise advice I have looked at, I have dismissed because they seem very ‘harsh’ to me and although I have done Pilates with a qualified teacher for over 20 years and what I do now has been modified over the years I would not be happy to do a lot of exercises that are promoted online even by people who appear to be experts.

If people ask Margaret questions about things like the Marodyne or weighted vests or pretty much anything else she will give them an answer which to me isn’t the same as ‘pushing’ anything and there are a lot of very good free videos on her site too, she constantly stresses ‘correct form’ and stresses the need for one to one advice.

[99real]

I am taking a mobility course now and the trainer says lunges are good for bone strength. I never heard that before. Anyone else? He emphasized that lunges have to be done in perfect form to avoid creating issues and gaining the benefit.

[HeronNS in reply to 99real]

Anything which builds muscles that consequently exert more pull on the bones is helpful. This is why swimming, although not load-bearing, can still be part of a fitness plan to help improve bone density because it strengthens muscles. This is good to know for those whose general condition limits what they can do. It doesn't replace load bearing exercise but it can help. Tai Chi is also supposed to be good for bones, probably because of the muscle control required for slow motion as well as positions which require use of certain muscles (eg standing on one foot and balancing).

[Fruitandnutcase in reply to HeronNS]

I think you have hit the nail on the head here HeronNS.

Building muscle exerts more pull on the muscles that support your bones, so you need to do a bit of that.

Walking is good but doesn’t cover everything.

Stretching is good too but you need to be constantly challenging different areas of your body and changing your routine.

Balance exercises are important too because if you can prevent falls you can prevent a lot of fractures.

[Fruitandnutcase in reply to HeronNS]

I tried tai chi some years ago and although I was keen to do it I was getting sciatica by the time I had finished the ‘sitting down’ part of the session we had before got up and ‘parted the wild horse’s mane’.

Unfortunately I found that the next morning I could barely move so although tai chi is widely recommended for back problems and it was something I’d always wanted to do, unfortunately it just wasn’t the exercise for me.

It was the same with yoga, I never got to grips with the breathing and I got the most awful muscle cramps. I tried three times, at different classes over the years, like tai chi I really wanted to do it.

Fortunately I found pilates which has turned out to be the perfect exercise for my body.

[HeronNS in reply to Fruitandnutcase]

Sitting down part of the session? Your classes must have been very different from mine! I don't remember anything like that. Perhaps your instructor was causing students to demand too much in the opening move which should just involve raising the arms slowly then as they lower gently bending the knees, but only to whatever level is comfortable. We didn't do anything involving sitting. I'd be interested to hear more about your experience.

Super that Pilates works for you. I've heard it recommended for bones. I think, like the others, there are different versions of Pilates?

[Fruitandnutcase in reply to HeronNS]

I know, I was really surprised to find that we all sat in a circle on chairs. I can’t remember exactly what we did with our arms but it was all upper body stuff then from what I remember we all stood and we did the exercise ‘parting the wild horse’s mane’ which I think is a fairly standard thing to do.

We did that the way you describe, slowly and sort of gracefully in four (from what I remember) different directions or it could have been two directions. Whatever it was we did it didn’t do my hip any good at all which was disappointing as I was sure it was going to be the answer to my back problem and it wasn’t easy to find a tai chi class back then.

I can’t even remember if the sitting part was linked to the standing part - it was a long time ago. It was a starter class and when it finished I didn’t sign up for any more classes. Very sad, because I love to see people doing tai chi out in the open - I’ve seen it in parks in Paris, from train windows, in the grounds of Wells Cathedral. I guess it just isn’t for me.

[Radars in reply to Fruitandnutcase]

yeah a bit daft

[HeronNS in reply to Fruitandnutcase]

That is disappointing. I think there are people who do chair tai chi, but usually they'd be people who really can't do standing exercises. I remember the course on offer to us simply taught us each movement in order, and it took all nine weeks to get through them all. I actually had to take the course several times over, plus practice with YouTube videos at home before I was any way competent, and to this day I won't claim that I've "mastered" the sequence. Had to stop for nearly two years when I hurt my knees because knees are definitely involved with tai chi!

[JoDo43 in reply to HeronNS]

You say knees are involved in Tai Chi, but in the Tai Chi we practice (Taoist Tai Chi) we are very careful of our knees and their alignment. As you say, Heron, we do use sitting sets of movements, but these are for those unable to stand for whatever reason, permanent or short-term. Doing a Tai Chi set sitting is really quite difficult for anyone used to doing it upright. Before lockdown we sometimes practiced this as a good mind exercise!

The best way to do Tai Chi is by attending sessions and telling your instructor immediately if you are having pain. In my experience, Tai Chi helps you to deal better with whatever life throws at you - physical or mental, or indeed spiritual. If I am allowed, I would like to point you towards the website taoisttaichi.org or taoist.org for Canada. We are an international charity organisation present in 25 countries around the world.

[HeronNS in reply to JoDo43]

Knees are definitely involved when you have knee injuries such as I had! I was unable to bend my knees (two separate and different injuries within 2 months of each other) until they healed and I had done exercises to regain strength in my legs. Try to do a snake creeps down, or stand on one leg when your knees are not working properly! I have heard of taoist tai chi. Perhaps this version would suit Fruitandnutcase ? Quite happy to coninue with the traditional form I was taught however.

Guess I should clarify that the knee injuries had nothing to do with my tai chi practice. One was twisting my knee as I ran down a slope to reach a Xwalk before the light turned red, and the other was stupidly tripping over something and slamming my (other) knee down as hard as I could on the floor. This second injury meant the first one took much longer to heal because I had to stress it too much.

[HeronNS]

As far as I know anything which causes some impact to the skeleton helps to encourage bone density. This includes walking downstairs (while walking upstairs is good for cardiovascular fitness). Mayo Clinic comment walking and other exercises, including what they call "stair climbing" but it's really "stair descending," good for bone density in hips and lower spine.

[Immelman]

I went cold turkey on HRT after reading the consequences of taking it longterm. Now taking a homeopathic remedy. My spine degenerated by 4% and all other bones improved. I was told that I should replace my treadmill 35 min exercise with a really brisk walk carrying 5kg in each hand or wear a weighted jacket. Anyone that has some experience with that?

[MayGodBlessYou]

i read here or elsewhere to remember gentle stretching, as well. a note for myself, really.

vibration plate - only if you're not prone to shattering, in my opinion. my friend played pipe organ in the town hall, said the vibrations disintegrated the brick work.

so, care

[ROSModerator Partner]

Thanks everyone for your comments in this discussion about exercise and vibration therapy, we can see that everyone is giving each other a lot of support which is great. If you would like to know more about this, we have a factsheet on vibration therapy: strwebprdmedia.blob.core.wi... and our exercise section has lots of information on exercises that can help bone strength : theros.org.uk/information-a... and theros.org.uk/information-a....