Bread and phytates: vitamin & calcium... - Bone Health and O...

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Bread and phytates: vitamin & calcium absorption

Can anyone advise on a point which is confusing me at the moment: I have learned that certain foods inhibit the absorption of calcium and vitamin D3 in the bones (phytates). I have stopped eating all bran at breakfast because it contains wheat grain and not whole grain. Looking at all the bread I eat, it seems that they all contain wheat flour. This is white and whole meal rolls, white and whole meal pita bread, whole meal soda bread, to name a few. Does this mean I have to cut out all bread, white or brown, from my daily diet so that I may absorb vit d3 & calcium effectively? What bread is known to be 100% wholegrain? As far as I am aware, phytates can undo all the work of taking supplements or having a calcium and vitamin d rich diet. Does anyone have any accurate information on this? I would certainly appreciate it.

Thank you.

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stillmovin

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Nanaedake5 years ago

Why not just separate the calcium tablet from meals but eat a small square of cheese or pot of yoghurt mid morning and take calcium tablet with it. Then similar thing after evening tea, you could have a small desert with tablet later in the evening.

Actually vitamin D is best eaten with something containing fats for best absorption.

stillmovin• in reply toNanaedake5 years ago

Thanks Nanaedake for suggestions. I have probs with acid reflux and bronchiectasis which has meant I’ve had to cut out a lot of dairy type foods as it causes me to produce more phlegm. Complicated issue I know! I usually take Adcal d3 with an extra dose of vit d3 plus a vitamin k supplement with breakfast. I suppose I could take the Adcal d3 tablet later but what about the vit d3 extra supplement and the vitamin k? Isn’t it best to take the whole lot in one go to aid absorption? My query is about which is the best bread to take which doesn’t affect vit d or calcium absorption? Bread is a big part of my diet. I eat it with soup, or at lunchtime or out and about. I thought brown bread was good for us but it seems it isn’t, when it comes to vit d and calcium absorption. Thanks for your feedback.

Nanaedake• in reply tostillmovin5 years ago

No, it isn't best to take all the vitamins at once. In fact calcium can prevent absorption of some vitamins. I would take the K2 separately. Instead of a dairy product take an omega 3 tablet with the vitamin D3 or a little oily fish. Or some salad with olive oil.

Most breads contain phytates.

stillmovin• in reply toNanaedake5 years ago

This is where I get stuck. I take Adcal D3 which has a small amount of d2. I also take an extra supplement I’d vit d3 25 mg. I also take K2 mk7. I read you have to take magnesium separately. So is it best to also take Adcal D3 separately and K2 separately again? I have to separate the Adcal D3 from the time of my epilepsy meds too. Then there is the evening Adcal tablet and again the evening epilepsy tablets. All to be separately but also with food? I am wondering how people manage this pattern of separation of tablets and also what types of food to eat with them?

Nanaedake• in reply tostillmovin5 years ago

Have you checked your vitamin D levels recently? 25mcg of vitamin D3 is equal to 1000iu I believe. If you're also taking Adcal twice a day then you are taking1800 iu vitamin D3 daily. Is that the correct amount for you? You can take the Adcal with the extra vitamin D. Magnesium is best taken at night before bed or you can use a spray which bypasses stomach absorption. I take K2-MK7 in the morning with vitamin C. ADCAL at lunch, I don't eat bread as I usually take left over main course or salads with lots of veg. Then ADCAL at teatime with main meal. Magnesium at night and other tablets at 3am, waking to take them. I don't worry too much about phytates or oxalic acid as I think it's more important to get a balanced diet. I avoid spinach and high oxalic foods with the ADCAL but I don't cut it out altogether.

stillmovin• in reply toNanaedake5 years ago

Thank you this is very helpful as it is very specific. I take epilepsy meds at lunchtime and again before bed. These tablets are, I believe, why I am having bone loss. However, I have to take them. I therefore am trying to take them at a different time to the Adcal and the d3. I have to see how I can get that sorted out myself. Yes, I do intend to get blood tests done with my GP for calcium and vit d3 levels, which will help me understand how much extra I actually need. d3 caplets contain 200 iu of vit d3, so that means two caplets will be 400 iu or 10 mg. Anyway, with your help and other people’s input here I am gradually understanding how to take these tablets and vitamins.

Nanaedake• in reply tostillmovin5 years ago

Yes, 10mcg or (ug) is equivalent to 400iu of vitamin D3. It would be good to get a new vitamin D test. If Dr won't do it for any reason then you can get it done via City Assays in Birmingham, it's a lab used by the NHS. Cost is approx £29.

thyr01d5 years ago

I believe that you can counter the negative effects of phytates by having something like orange juice around the same time (I drink orange juice when eating nuts). Years ago I tried to find 100% wholemeal bread but couldn't, how about making your own with a bread-maker? My daughter does and it's delicious.

BadHare• in reply tothyr01d5 years ago

Sourdoughs are more acidic so not recommended for use with the aluminium liner in bread machines.

stillmovin• in reply tothyr01d5 years ago

Thank you. I would certainly consider this if I can find appropriate flour.

5 years ago

You can get the answer to this by ringing the specialist nurse on the free helpline at the ROS.

Kaarina• in reply to5 years ago

It is only a free telephone helpline if living in the UK.

stillmovin• in reply to5 years ago

Thank you. I did ring the advertised freephone Uk no. on Friday but it wasn’t recognised. Can you confirm their UK number please.

Kaarina• in reply tostillmovin5 years ago

Is this the number you called: 0808 800 0035

There is a notice on the ROS website saying:

"The Helpline is closed while we update our systems.

We'll be back this afternoon. Thank you for your patience."

stillmovin• in reply toKaarina5 years ago

Thanks I will retry and also check the website.

BadHare5 years ago

There was an article in the New Scientist (I think) several years ago, & lots of information online if you do a web search. I think Chris Kresser has covered phytate, too.

I swapped to eating sourdough as the slow fermentation breaks down these anti-nutrients as well as gliadin which is the gluten protein that causes autoimmune issues for coeliacs. Sourdough promotes nutrient absorption.

There are starter cultures on sale at some health food shops or online, or you could make your own in a week. I usually buy a few whole grain sourdough half baguettes each week (M&S do an organic, though Waitrose’s tastes nicer, for about 70p). I don’t want a sourdough sponge to interfere with my kefir culture as these can cross pollinate. Occasionally I get a Gale’s sourdough as they come in fancy forms, or buy a sliced rye sourdough which is nice toasted. I’ve spotted basic white sourdoughs in all supermarkets which would have little phytate, but won’t be as nutritious as whole grains.

stillmovin• in reply toBadHare5 years ago

Thanks. That’s something I could get when shopping.

thyr01d• in reply toBadHare5 years ago

Hi BadHare, does this mean that coeiacs can eat sourdough bread?

BadHare• in reply tothyr01d5 years ago

It would depend on the level of tolerance & how long the bread has been left to prove. Coeliac is nasty, & it takes 3 months to rid the body of gliadin antibodies if a crumb is inhaled. so it's probably best not to take that chance

thyr01d• in reply toBadHare5 years ago

Thanks

fenn• in reply tothyr01d5 years ago

Hi. Somebody who is gluten intolerant MAY be able to tolerate sourdough bread, however if you are a Coeliac any gluten, whether sourdough or not, is a definate no, no.

thyr01d• in reply tofenn5 years ago

Thanks fenn for clarifying, that is what I thought, but reading the posts here I wondered if I had misunderstood.

Jessie1234• in reply toBadHare5 years ago

Bad hare I make kefir and am considering making my own sourdough bread. Could you explain how the cross pollination happens and what a sourdough sponge is please.

BadHare• in reply toJessie12345 years ago

I read somewhere on a fermentation site that the two cultures need to be kept in different rooms. I think the sourdough yeasts can infiltrate the kefir grains & mess them up, & that would never do! 🤗

A sourdough starter is referred to as a sponge as it has a foamy spongiform texture.

I’ve made kefir risen buckwheat & chia seed pancakes in summer when it ferments faster. They were delicious but no live culture benefits. I should have used a bigger jug as it was overflowing by morning. I tried once to make kefir risen bread though the point were I added olive oil & salt killed the culture. I need to experiment again.

Jessie1234• in reply toBadHare5 years ago

Thank you. That was fun experimenting. I have to say I love sourdough. We have a local chef "Joe The Baker" selling his homemade bread around local shops but it's only a few days each week with a 10 mile journey so easily missed. Never imagined the cultures could jump from one spot to another never mind the cultures making the dough bubble up and over 😆. I have read you can buy the sourdough starter but is there a strong wholemeal flour to make wholemeal sourdough? Sorry....I'm new to this

Jessie1234• in reply toJessie12345 years ago

I have made Irish soda (also known as Brown Soda bread or wheaten bread) . It relies on baking soda and buttermilk as raising agents. However you can use Kefir in place of buttermilk and it works perfectly for me but as you said no probiotics consumed. Google Darina Allen's Irish Soda Bread for lots of hits and a video on YouTube. It's not what you're looking for stillmovin. I read last night that Sourdough is the perfect bread for your bone density. I'd need to read it again to fully understand why. If I can find the link again I'll post it. Beware of supermarket sourdough as I've heard they are not the real deal. Try to get it in a home bakery or make your own. There's a world of a difference in taste. Toasting the sourdough removes further anti nutrients. I just adore it toasted with mashed advocado on too with pepper, a little salt and dried seaweed flakes sprinkled on.

stillmovin• in reply toJessie12345 years ago

Thanks that’s helpful. I grew up with soda bread and barm brack I as I am Irish. I have supermarket soda bread but as you said, it does seem to be wheaten. Soda farls also are wheat I think. These are all Irish traditional breads.

Jessie1234• in reply tostillmovin5 years ago

Yes, all made from wheat. Home made sourdough is your best bet.

Jessie1234• in reply toJessie12345 years ago

I tried finding the original post I read about how sourdough is good for your bones but can't find it. However an article by healthline.com ..."Why Sourdough Bread is one of the healthiest bread" is pretty informative

BadHare• in reply toJessie12345 years ago

i like the sound of Joe the Baker! 🤗

I make a 14 mile round trip for my favourite, though I’m time rich. It’s disappointing when it’s not availabile so I stock up when it is.

The sourdough cultures originally come from air borne yeasts living in the flour, which is why an initial sponge is hard to develop, & why some companies boast how old their starter is.

There are lots of different flours to try. Many supermarkets have a good baking section so shop around for something you fancy. A favourite of mine for ordinary bread is olive oil & rosemary made with half dark rye for nutrition & flavour with half Italian 00 for lightness. I use extra yeast to counteract the effect of us

I was surprised at how busy the kefir was with buckwheat.

5 years ago

Why not gluten free bread?

stillmovin• in reply to5 years ago

Is gluten free bread without phytates? If so, that is a possibility.

BadHare• in reply to5 years ago

It's stripped of all nutrition as well as gluten, though I don't know if the phytates are taken out as well.

Met005 years ago

I read that, although phytates may reduce the absorption of calcium, they don't prevent it altogether. Plus they only reduce absorption during the meal that contains the phytates, not the rest of the day. Have a read of the following: nutritionfacts.org/topics/p...; and everydayhealth.com/columns/...; and saveourbones.com/phytic-aci.... If you need to take a calcium supplement, you could always switch to calcium citrate, which doesn't need to be taken with food and is claimed to be more readily absorbed. Vitamin D needs to be taken with a meal containing fat.

thyr01d• in reply toMet005 years ago

Really? Doesn't a lot of vitamin d come as an oil to overcome that?

BadHare• in reply tothyr01d5 years ago

It doesn't have to be taken with fat, but as a fat soluble vitamin we absorb more if eaten with fatty/oily food. Some of my supplememnts come in an oily capsule, some are white tablets which I take with nuts & seeds.

Met00• in reply tothyr01d5 years ago

It's recommended to take with the main meal of the day to maximise absorption. I take mine with breakfast, but have whole milk kefir and nuts and seeds, so should be plenty of fat. Yes, I guess an oil based capsule will help absorption.

fenn• in reply toMet005 years ago

That’s what I do.

stillmovin• in reply toMet005 years ago

The site save our ones.com that you have listed here is very interesting. It indicates that phytates are actually needed for building bone density. Confusing but interesting! Have you tried any recipes in the recipe book shown on this site? ( Bone appétit ... great name!) I wonder what the case is for phytate rich food, after reading this site. Avoid them or eat them?

Met00• in reply tostillmovin5 years ago

No, I haven't looked at the recipes. The whole phytate and oxylate debate is very confusing. I've come to the conclusion that everything in moderation is probably the best approach!

Jessie12345 years ago

A really interesting discussion. Thank you for all the information

fenn5 years ago

I’ve eliminated sugar from my diet. Use goats milk for dairy and make my own kefir. Am gluten and grain free, making my own bread from buckwheat & tiger nut flour. For info shop bought gluten free breads tend to be highly processed and contain sugar, so are a definite no as far as I am concerned.

stillmovin• in reply tofenn5 years ago

That’s interesting to know. Thanks. As a matter of interest, did you make these changes following a Dexa scan result? Do you know as yet if your bone density has improved since adopting these diet changes or are you between scans? Again, it’s good to hear about these changes, so I appreciate your feedback.

fenn• in reply tostillmovin5 years ago

I didn’t originally make the changes for Osteoporosis. I’ve got Arthritis which I have found is very connected to food and nutrition. However, an anti-inflammatory diet is also, I am lead to believe, beneficial for Osteoporosis.

• in reply tofenn5 years ago

fenn, your diet sounds very delicious and healthy.

love kefir how can we find how to make it ourselves- do you use raw milk?

fenn• in reply to5 years ago

Hi. It is really easy. First get your Kefir grains. Google Kefir and you will find a number of websites that sell them. They come with instructions, but basically you soak them in whole, organic milk for 24hrs - 48hrs and then strain. Add more milk to the grains and leave on the side in the kitchen, again for 24hrs - 48hrs. I find at this time of the year they can be a bit slow, so I have two on the go and do one one day and one the next ie. so they both ferment for 48hrs. The most important bit is bit enjoy the delicious Kefir. I have mine for breakfast with nuts, seeds and dried fruit (prunes). I do soak and dehydrate the nuts and seeds to reduce the phytates though.

• in reply tofenn5 years ago

Thank you I am ordering today - LOVE Kefir !! did not think I could make it .

do you know whats in those grains? just wondering

fenn• in reply to5 years ago

Regret no.

Jessie1234• in reply tofenn5 years ago

The grains are really live bacteria that support a healthy microbiome which is important for absorbing nutrients. Likewise support the bacteria with eating prebiotic foods such as live yogurt daily, onions, asparagus and more.

5 years ago

Hi stillmovin I have read alot on teeth and bones as they are pratically the same and the ones Ive read which are all by naturopathic MDs say Phytates destroy teeth so I would assume as they are practically the same stuff same material same would be for bones - I would cut my phytates way down thats grains beans breads stick to the keto style diet .

Im doing this and feel fantastic . veggies meats dairy cut breads almost out completely they are not what you really need

5 years ago

I am having coffee with organic mlk in it as I write this and let me tell you this milk tastes so rich so creamy so delicious plus it has globs of real cream on top I think the brand is cream line I just ran out and I am going to store to get more , it is so great. my dog gets a little mlk from creamline he loves it- the regular milk in the store- he hates wont drink it

stillmovin5 years ago

I’m seeing doc next week to ask for blood tests. Haven’t actually received my dexa scan results yet. The radiologist told me when I was having the scan that he couldn’t give the results yet but the scan indicated that the hip was osteopenia stage and the spine was borderline osteoporosis. I’ve had to wait a long time for the actual results. Will check again next week when I see GP.