I downloaded a book suggested on here: 'K2 & the Ca Paradox'. It makes for extremely interesting reading but doesn't recommend a daily dosage.
The author stated a portion of natural Natto would usually be 400 mcg but usual supplement of K2 is 120 mcg but safe enough to double this amount.
The one I ordered is only 100 mcg and recommends taking 1 tablet in the evening. Looked at different sites and many say at least 150 mcg per day. So a bit confused on the optimum dosage. Online K2 seems to offer 100 mcg up to even a whopping 600 mcg so wondering what others consider the best option.
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Titian8
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My capsules are 100 mcg, take one a day. I take 2 a day. I believe Australia has set an RDA of about 180 per day, but as far as I know it is very difficult to overdose on this Vitamin so I'm sure taking two of your 100 mcg doses would be fine.
Unfortunately K2 can be damaging if taken in excess. It's sensible to have platelets measured to give indication of blood clotting effect if it is taken regularly and long term.
I don't think Vitamin K2 has the same effects on blood clotting as Vitamin K1, just as K1 doesn't have the same effects on bone density as K2. And I don't think any of us are suggesting any supplements should be taken in excess. The warning, is, however, pertinent for those taking warfarin type bloodthinners.
I used to have very sensitive teeth. This improved after I had taken Vitamin K2 supplements for a while. I stopped taking the second dose. After a few months the sensitive teeth returned. I've doubled my K2 intake again. And after a few months my teeth are less sensitive than they've been for years. So, guess I need the dose I'm taking, at least for the time being.
That's interesting to hear about the noticeable effect on your teeth. So you know for sure it's working. As sometimes, when taking vitamins you hope are doing you good and hopefully preventing health issues you can't be sure. However, after reading so much about K2 this is one will definitely continue.
Yes its one of the vitamins your body can't store for later so you really need to keep taking it all the time maybe with short breaks ..same with vitamin c as well which helped my teeth a lot too but if I forget it soon shows. Some things you cab store like iron but not so much with the k2.
My doctors seem to prescribe the basics and reviews/monitoring just doesn't happen: so alas getting platelets measured, especially when I'm taking an otc vitamin such as K2 wouldn't be an option.
It should be that since you are now diagnosed as oestoporotic you would be monitored, many times admittedly it's vague, but annually have a FBC/CBC which will give platelet count and other indications of bone health.Much of the onus is on the patient so if it's not offered request / insist nicely!that it is done.
Thanks for further info, am not even aware of what FBC/CBC is!
After the Dexa scan the specialist nurse just recommended the usual meds and said would get a call back in 5 years to see how things were. Then the GP recommended the exact same drug, which I'm refusing and instead put me on a 2 month repeat prescription of a combined calcium and D3 tablet full of 4 types of artificial sweetners, which again I'd never dream of taking. Just what is wrong with sugar these days? I already have a hard enough time when supermarkets etc stock nothing but diet and low calorie food and drink, which I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.
I was on a PPI for about 15 years and only had one review lately and that was only to change to a cheaper brand due to cutbacks, which the doctor admitted was the only reason. I stopped them totally myself since becoming aware they affect bone mass. I so wish I'd never taken them at all and found alternatives, which I always do now.
Hi titan yes, I guess 15 yrs on PPI with no reviews wouldn't have helped your bones.They are known to affect absorption of many nutrients not least magnesium which again is essential for bone health amongst many other things. Bear in mind it is a co-factor when taking D3 and K2. What you have experienced so far is the usual approach when diagnosed but you do sound as if you are approaching things in a balanced and sensible way and are taking a pro active and informed route, so as long as you have a reasonably approachable gp who will listen to to fairminded concerns you should do ok.fbc/CBC is just full blood count which given your situation would not be unreasonable to request annually. Many in the medical field are now questioning the supplementation of calcium,again it's individual and in an ideal world you will have had a fbc to check your own calcium levels before beginning to supplement.like everything else too much is as bad as not enough.
As you advise re current medical questioning of calcium supplements, I've now been more aware of the importance of calcium rich foods and the National Osteoporosis Society chooser leaflet for both Calcium and Vitamin D has been useful, albeit limited as only a leaflet. My goal now is to get all necessary calcium through food choices to avoid taking a supplement. This will make me a bit more organised rather than eating what is easiest and to hand. Proactive will definitely be my buzzword.
What is a PPI (that affects bone mass)? I've no idea if my calcium and D3 contain artificial sweeteners. Nothing is listed on bottles at all. I'm reading as many blogs and forums as I can due to doctor recommending Prolia, and I've refused it for 3 years, different doctors. I asked about K2 and he knew nothing about it. My mom was given Prolia without ANY info on side effects. She is 94! Suffered terrible back, hip, and leg pains, plus muscle cramps, many other listed side effects. Now, I read on here she will be in grave danger refusing to continue it, which she says she will NOT take another one. It was I who told her of side effects, after I learned she had the injection!
Proton pump inhibitors (PPIs) are a group (class) of medicines that work on the cells that line the stomach, reducing the production of acid. They include esomeprazole, lansoprazole, omeprazole, pantoprazole and rabeprazole, and have various different brand names.
Many doctors do not know about K2.
Unfortunately if one stops prolia there is a possibility of rebound vertebral fractures occurring unless one continues with another OP drug .... I was told this a year ago by an OP consultant I see twice a year. I never started prolia and am relieved I did not.
That is a fairly basic test. One thing you might want to test is calcium and d as well ..but if your doctor doesnt do it then you can ask for it. You're entitled to request tests for yourself. If you're NHS and if on insurance you're at least entitled to yearly tests. You're also entitled to see any doctor at the practice and can even ask the receptionist as bloods are often done by the nurse so you don't have to have your doctor request it.
You seem to b confusing k1 with k2. Japan's daily amount is 45mg which is 45000micrograms the most you get here is below 1mg. Also no upper limit has been found whereby there is an adverse reaction much like vitamin c or b12. It also depends on the type of k2 you take mk7 is a lot more stable than mk4 so you need more mk4 and in more regular doses throughout the day than mk7. As far as I am aware there is no upper limit and you seem to be talking about clothing factor k1 which is not the same thing.
From what it says in the book (and also HeronNS experience) sounds like the dose youre taking is fine. However, that's why I asked too as was unsure. I now intend taking 200 mcg and see how it goes.
Was thinking of doing that also after reading all the comments. Didn't know about the Australian RDA but then it's only in the last couple of weeks, since diagnosis, that have been looking into and reading about 'the way to go' that will be the best option. I'll double this dose seeing as it's quite low and monitor it.
This is what I've heard from someone who lives in Australia and posts on a different forum. I haven't been able to find anything official, admittedly not tried hard! It just seems like a sensible dose, especially as supplements do come in doses like 180 mcg so it doesn't seem like 200 is out of line at all.
The article says this, 'A dose-finding study of menatetrenone in Japan [7] administered daily doses of 15, 45, 90, and 135 mg and revealed that 45 mg was the minimum effective dose for improving bone mass parameters evaluated by microdensitometry and/or single photon absorptiometry in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis. This optimal dose (45 mg/day) for the treatment of osteoporosis is about 150–180 times greater than the recommended daily dietary intake of vitamin K (250–300 μg) [8]. No toxic effects of menatetrenone (45 mg/day) have been reported.'
...'However, the vitamin K intake (500 μg/day) needed for full γ-carboxylation of OC may be approximately 100-fold lower than the dose of menatetrenone (45 mg/day) needed to produce a clinical effect'
I think the jury is still out on whether it helps osteoporosis or not but it seems to provide some benefits.
I think menatetrenone is another form of Vitamin K2. You and I have been talking about Vitamin K2-7, this is another form which I can't say I've ever heard of before. There is also Vitamin K2-4, which is often found in small quantities in food. K2-4 and K2-7 are different forms of menaquinone, and both may be found in various supplements. As far as I've ever heard it's Vitamin K2-7 which we find in natto and which the Japanese have found so effective in reducing the incidence of osteoporosis in the population which consumes natto.
I find it difficult knowing when to take which supplement with what food! I have just started taking my Vitamin D supplement, with my evening meal, away from K2. I read from the link above that it is best taken with K2.
I've still to read the above article, but the K2 I've started says take with a meal in the evening. However, it doesn't say anything about consuming it with some sort of fat which I read about on here.
All the fat soluble vitamins are best taken with a source of fat, usually present in a meal hence advice to take with a meal as there's nearly always fat somewhere in the meal. Don't know how easy it will be for many of us to even find sublingual forms of Vitamins. I can't even get K2 capsules at my pharmacy, have to go to a health foods store. But I can get oily Vitamin D3 capsules at the pharmacy.
Hi Karina current thinking is that subliqual supplementation is superior to tablet form because of the method of absorption.with sublinqual it does not appear to matter when or with what it is taken so taking with fat containing foods becomes irrelevant which does give far more flexibility re timings.
Yes, you're right Menatetrenone is the brand name of a synthetic vitamin K2 that is chemically identical to menaquinone-4. And yes K2-Mk7 is taken at lower doses so the article is completely unhelpful - sorry.
This explains the difference between the various forms of K. Not sure on the veracity of this website but it's easy to read.
I've just skimmed through the article but will read it fully later. Although, as Kaarina has already mentioned, in whats the difference between msgs and mgs. Also what's ug ??
Hi Nanadedake. Mk4 seems to be the favourite mk with regards to OP, from quite a lot of folk on the US. NOF Forum. My understanding from reading their links is that although mk4 doesn’t alter Bone density it does aid the production of bone collagen, which is what gives bone is strength and flexibility.
Although 45mg of mk4 is the prescription dose used in Japan, some others say that lower doses of even 5mg are still beneficial to bones. I suppose the Japanese are covering all their options. Natto for Mk7 plus prescription mk4. Apparently they do also use Alendronic acid in Japan! Best wishes.
This thread has probably not helped you decide on your dose at all! I have just read a severe critique of Rheaume Bleue's book The Calcium Paradox, but interestingly much of the criticism seems invalid. Here is another point of view about the value of Vitamin K2 and the need for supplementation in the Western world. I thought it interesting that the authors also think even our K1 supply is much diminished in the modern diet. But we all eat our leafy greens, don't we?
I'm reading everything to do with K2-MK7 so will definitely read the link you give. My sole reading of late had been all things medical but I mustn't let this diagnosis take over or will totally bore everyone for sure. However, although from all your comments there is wide variance in dosage it also gives some indication on what works for the individual. Being a veggie I most definitely eat loads of leafy greens daily 😁
Pretty sure there's no recommended dose in either Canada or the US. They are still trying to decide whether they should even recommend it! Unfortunately we are a bit tied to whatever dosage is available to us. Judging from my experience I need closer to 200 than 100. I have no interest in ordering anything on line, so have to use what's available to me, the 100 mcg capsules.
Of which form? Vitamin K2-4 is, I believe, dispensed in mg? Although I'm not sure. I think you can trust maker's recommendations. Unless you know what you are doing I wouldn't excessively exceed those recommendations.
Belated reply, sorry. Had to phone New York, and time difference delay. So, 120mcg of K2-7. 225 mg is all the other ingredients- organic vegetables mostly. Per capsule.
If I take 2 a day, that would be 240mcg. Recommended dosage -1 a day, 120mcg. Not enough?
I guess I would need to change brands to get 100mcg dosage, in order to double it to 200mcg.
Hi Justin. May I suggest you take one tablet a day, for a while, to ensure that they agree with you. You could then double up if you want to, until you have used them up. If you particularly want to take 200 mcg, you could then try another brand.
I’m still taking Life Extention Super K, which has 200mcg of Mk7 and 1 mg of Mk4. Some folk on the National OP Foundation forum say that mk4 is more important than Mk7. I’m personally not sure, so I take both.
I don’t think the K2 dosage is that critical, as you see all different recommendations. It’s more a case of what agrees with YOU and what you want to spend.
Thanks. Have been taking the k2 120mcg for a while now and no problems. Think I read 90-150 mcg ok. Bit concerned to take 240mcg, so will buy the 100mcg next time and take 2 a day, to achieve the ideal of 180mcg. Would also like to add in mk4.
I now take 200mcg Mk7 daily. Please be aware that mk7 doesn’t agree with some folk, causing an irregular heart beat, which corrects its self once you stop taking it.
For this reason I started on a low dose and gradually increased the dose to make sure it agreed with me. I then bought Drs Best 100mcg gradually increasing it to 2 a day. I now buy Life Extention Super K, which has 200mcg of Mk7 and 1 mg of mk4.
I take mine with my first fat containing meal of the day. I would be wary taking it at night, as it’s likely to keep you awake.
It’s rather hit and miss getting it from food and I believe natto is quite disgusting, unless you are used to it.
I also buy Carlson mk4 in 5mg capsules and I take 2 of these a day, MK4 is one of the OP treatments prescribed in Japan.
There's a problem if you're on beta blockers. Vitamin K2 interacts with those and can cause irregular heartbeat. My reaction, if it were me, would be to give up the beta blockers! 😈
I upped to 200 mcg with evening meal simply because that's the time suggested by the makers! It didn't affect my sleep so hope that continues.
The images of Natto look totally yucky so can only imagine the taste would be disgusting to put it mildly.
As mentioned before, I bought mine from Troo Health in the UK because the other ingredients are listed as HPMC vegetarian capsules, rice flour, silicone dioxide and vit C. Though as this was my first purchase will be looking at other brands too.
I’m glad it agrees with you. I only mentioned it in passing because of comments on the NOF Forum.
I sometimes have problems sleeping so I’m wary of what I take at bedtime. I usually save two of my Mg tablets until bedtime as these are supposed to help with sleep. I sometimes even resort to melatonin, which perhaps helps a little. Regards.
This study advises 180mcg daily for good bone health. I suppose you might get some in food as well as via a supplement but another study said that some osteoporosis drugs prevent proper conversion of K2 in the body so perhaps supplements are necessary to the full value?
“Studies that give us insight to the optimal dose of Vitamin K2 for bone benefits are always welcomed. However, the Knappen et al. study that published in Osteoporosis International showed that the optimal dose of Vitamin K2 as MK-7 to decrease inactive osteocalcin was 180 mcg/day, which is much lower than the required dose for MK-4, which this study showed was 600 mcg/day or more,” said Dr. Maresz. “This is due to MK-7’s higher bioavailability, which is an important consideration to keep in mind when selecting the best Vitamin K2.”
Very soon after being prescribed a combined calcium/VitD pill by the GP I returned and discussed my diet with him and he agreed I did not need any extra calcium and since then has only prescribed me with a Vit D capsule. I also asked him if he would refer me to a specialist which he did. This doctor worked in the endocrinology department and it was like a breath of fresh air to see him twice a year. Now twice a year he arranges a blood test for me for Vit D, calcium levels, fbc and any others that I wish for. This is such a help. He is so kind and listens and I look forward to my appointments with him.
Hold on to that GP Kaarina - his patient care sounds really first class. I will condense what happens at my practise. I actually avoid doctors as much as possible, as try not to take prescribed drugs, so only made an appointment to get the result of the Dexa scan after breaking wrist.
In the waiting room is a pile of letters informing patients an appointment will last 10 minutes max so don't ask for repeat prescriptions, only discuss one health issue, or make another visit, no consultation about others during this time i.e. any children with you. Although allocated 10 minutes this actually means 7 minutes as this time includes updating records and writing prescriptions. So no in-depth discussions. The practise does apologise for this and aware it's not really acceptable but due to under staffing and under resourced that's the current situation. I would point out all the doctors are nice, just too much to deal with.
So if twice a year you get all these tests you mention, with such continuous monitoring you must have one of the best doctors out there.
I am in the UK but it is not my GP that does this. I asked my GP to refer me to an OP specialist and he did. The doctor I see twice a year is in the endocrinology department at our local hospital. When he called me last week with my dexa results, he said that he would let me into a little secret and he is retiring! I am devastated to hear this. I had an appointment to see him in October but it was cancelled with a new appointment given to me for January 2019. Now I know why! I posted a thank you card to this doctor today as he really was one in a million. I am so sorry he is leaving but I appreciate he wishes to spend time doing other things now. I only hope the next doctor I see in January is as efficient and keeps me on and does not discharge me. I am doing ok at the moment and do not take any OP medication. I still want to have the blood tests done and a dexa in a couple of years time again to see if things are still ok.
I buy magnesium sulphate (epsom salts) for the bath from that well known auction site. 10kg with free postage costs less than £10. I broke my wrist s few months ago and read it would be beneficial to soak hand, wrist and arm in it. Therefore sounds ideal for osteoporosis in general.
I take magnesium glycinate which is kind on the stomach. I have no problem with it anyway. I take showers so epsom salts would not work for me. I cannot remember the last time I took a bath. Probably could get into the bath but I may have a bit of trouble getting out again, these days.
I've been totally amazed at all the responses too Met00. As just recently diagnosed I knew practically zilch about the condition and the different ways to treat it. You all have a vast knowledge and the information is so much appreciated.
Lani Simpson in Dr. Lani's No-Nonsense Bone Health Guide says "recommended levels: no RDA; MK-7 therapeutic range 90-200 mcg, MK-4 therapeutic range 10-45 mg." She also lists some food sources, and elsewhere in the book suggests that we should take both forms. MK-4 is the kind found in most foods.
I take some K2 with Calcium and Vit D as a combined supplement but this is only 35mcg. I decided to go with Natto, fermented soybeans, taking 46g portion every 3 days which gives me around 360mcg. As its fat soluble does not have to be taken daily, as with Vit D. Its cheap and I don't have an issue with the taste or smell, despite all the people who will not eat it. Getting anything from food has to be better than by supplement, natto is relatively cheap, you can doll it up with some soy sauce, rice etc etc, its a freezer product so I buy a couple of months supply, and easily available from Japanese supermarkets. If you are dismissing natto before you have tried, suggest you reset your assumptions and see for yourself, I find it quite tasty.
I've read that 300mcg-900mcg K2-MK4 is standard for people with bone health issues. MK7 is a little lower dosage wise, however experts aren't 100% certain on the conversion factor to MK4 (activator x) from MK7. I am sticking to MK4 for now and am having excellent results.
Hi, a book I read recommended 45 mg (mg, not mcg!) per day of K2. I was able to order some supplements of that strength a few years ago but they are no longer available. All I can find now are mcg, none more than 200. I think there is still a lot of research to be done in this area.
There are several types of K2, but for bone health we need either K2-MK4 or K2-MK7. The amount we need of each is different. For K2-MK4, the Japanese prescribe 45mg daily, which I believe has to be split between 3 separate doses, because it has a very short half-life, so doesn't stay in the blood for long. For K2-MK7, the Australians recommend 90-180mcg, which is normally taken just once a day. So I guess that you read about and previously purchase K2-MK4, but are now only seeing K2-MK7. 200mcg of K2-MK7 is considered plenty, and the jury is out whether MK4 or MK7 is better, though I've read that MK7 is more bio-available.
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