Reducing Cholesterol

[lindyloo21]

Hello everyone. As anyone used bergamot supplement to help reduce cholesterol level.? If so were the results good?Thank you

If so were the results good

[Scout2017]

Pubmed is a database, not a journal. Perhaps you’d be good enough to post links to the actual peer reviewed articles to support your claims, rather than making a bunch and following up with a ‘do your own research’? B

[JeremiahObadiah]

No one answering on here is a doctor or pharmacist (even if they say they are we have no proof!) so never trust anything said as being current medical advice relevant to your body .

I will share my personal experience, I also have naturally high cholesterol and I wanted to believe I could manage it through diet and exercise. I could not have tried harder to control it but it really didn’t improve. ( Thee was a period of about 15 years during which I tried non pharmaceutical ways to lower it) I now take a prescribed medication and along with a plant based diet and activity, it has brought it down to a level that seems acceptable. Of course, in the years I wasn’t taking the medication I will have built up cholesterol in my arteries and I now wish I had begun to take it earlier. Hindsight is always clearer!

[Paul12 in reply to JeremiahObadiah]

Very very sensible. I suspect the medication makes little difference to your safety though. That said, 5 mcg seems ideal

[Paul12]

This is dangerous. And misleading with mistakes in most paragraphs. Cholesterol IS very dangerous IF IF IF it is oxidized LDL. If you reduce total then MAYBE oxidized LDL will fall. Calcium scoring misses small plaques. Vitamin C and plaque - no strong evidence. Arterial plaque, or atherosclerosis, is primarily caused by unhealthy lifestyle habits and certain health conditions. Vitamin C deficiency is not considered a direct cause of arterial plaque. Trigs are the key. Factors contributing to the development of arterial plaque include:

1. High levels of oxidized cholesterol and triglycerides in the blood:When the levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL, often referred to as "bad cholesterol") are high, it can build up on the artery walls and form plaques.

2. High blood pressure:This can damage arteries, making them more vulnerable to the accumulation of cholesterol and other substances. So vulnerability and when oxidized LDL arrives…

3. Smoking:This can damage the inner lining of arteries, leading to atherosclerosis.

4. Diabetes:High levels of glucose in the blood can lead to damage in the arteries.

5. Obesity:Excess weight typically correlates with risk factors for atherosclerosis such as high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and diabetes. The enemy is sugar and high carbs.

6. Inflammation from diseases:Certain diseases like lupus or arthritis can cause inflammation in the arteries. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is an important nutrient for overall health and plays a role in preventing oxidative damage in the body, which can contribute to the development of diseases like atherosclerosis.

The ‘Scottish doctor’ and his legion of conspiracy theorists especially those who think there’s such a thing as a Pioppi diet, are often destroyed when Professors debate. The study matching high cholesterol to longevity? Even a child can debunk that! Low cholesterol and stroke? Never in a million years has causation been proved. The plaque in arteries? More nonsense. The fibrin, the cholesterol, the calcium, the cellular waste products CALCIFY. On the topic if strokes, the common risk factors are age, stress and blood presssure. So a 65 year old male, worried about a stroke is also likely to have high blood pressure so….

[Hidden in reply to Paul12]

No. Accurate in almost every respect, although you do not need to take fat-soluble vitamins with dietary fat. You need to research more widely.

Attempts to reduce LDL by artificial means, whether by mevalonate pathway disruptors (statins) or PCSK9 inhibitors, reduce the larger buoyant particles and leave the oxidised or glycated LDL dominant. These medications also reduce cholesterol in the brain, where it is so vital to brain health that the brain makes its own (the molecule is too large to pass the blood/brain barrier in the circulation). You say nothing about Lp(a). Why is that?

Trials from as long ago as the 1970s have shown that raised cholesterol is a predictor of longevity. More than that: low cholesterol is a predictor of raised all-cause mortality, including cancers, degenerative cognitive illnesses, liver failure and, oddly enough, traumatic deaths (it's theorised that low cholesterol blunts our appreciation of risk but no-one knows why this should be). People with familial hypercholesterolaemia, if they do not have the associated clotting abnormality which DOES threaten early death, generally outlive those with lower cholesterol. This is a link to the abstract on PubMed and if you genuinely want to read the actual article and get the facts I'm sure you can. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/335...

You might be interested in a study which showed lowered cholesterol increased all-cause mortality. Because the researchers got the wrong answer they hid the results, which were only discovered in 2015 and published in the British Medical Journal. Again, an abstract, but you can then access the article which demonstrates that the higher your cholesterol, the longer you live:bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6...

[Paul12 in reply to Hidden]

That article does nothing of the sort! At best it is about association. It also has limitations. Read the Rapud Response comments.

[Paul12 in reply to Hidden]

More debunking.

"Attempts to reduce LDL by artificial means, whether by mevalonate pathway disruptors (statins) or PCSK9 inhibitors, reduce the larger buoyant particles and leave the oxidised or glycated LDL dominant. "

(Your post)

A study:

"...patients treated with statins have significantly lower circulating concentrations of oxLDL and that this effect is not related to the intensity or lipophilicity of the statins used. Beyond well-known reduction in LDL-C, the beneficial effect of statins may partly be associated with the reduction of oxidative modifications of LDL and its effect on different stages of the atherosclerotic process...."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

And another:

"In this study, we found that statin therapy might be associated with a higher proportion of small, dense LDL and a lower proportion of large, buoyant LDL, although statin therapy was clearly associated with a decrease in the concentrations of TC, LDL-C, and apo B; in the apo B/apo A ratio; and in the absolute amounts of small, dense LDL and large, buoyantLDL."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[Paul12 in reply to Hidden]

" that raised cholesterol is a predictor of longevity."

(Your post)

From 2021:

"Conclusions and Relevance This cohort study showed that cumulative LDL-C and TWA LDL-C during young adulthood and middle age were associated with the risk of incident CHD, independent of midlife LDL-C level. These findings suggest that past levels of LDL-C may inform strategies for primary prevention of CHD and that maintaining optimal LDL-C levels at an earlier age may reduce the lifetime risk of developing atherosclerotic CVD."

jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...

And more and more:

"Tim Chico, a professor of cardiovascular medicine at the University of Sheffield, told the Science Media Centre that the analysis by Ravnskov et al. indeed left out relevant clinical trials:

“There have been several studies that tested whether higher cholesterol increases the risk of heart disease, by lowering cholesterol in elderly patients and observing whether this reduces their risk of heart disease (for example the PROSPER study). These have shown that lowering cholesterol using a drug does reduce the risk of heart disease in the elderly, and I find this more compelling than the data in the current study. I am surprised the authors of this study do not refer to such trials, which tends to make their own paper disappointingly unbalanced.”

In addition, the CEMB explained that the search produced 282 studies, 263 of which were excluded without providing specific reasons for these exclusions. In fact, the CEMB found inconsistencies in the inclusion and exclusion criteria. For example, the authors excluded a 2015 study by Postmus et al. that found associations between genetic predisposition to high LDL-C and higher mortality even though it matched the selection criteria[2].

In contrast, the authors included a study by Bathum et al. where it’s unclear whether the study should have been included based on the authors’ inclusion and exclusion criteria, according to the CEBM response[3]. Specifically, the authors stated they excluded “studies without multivariate correction for the association between LDL-C and all-cause and/or CV mortality”. Multivariate correction is a statistical method that corrects for multiple potential confounding factors, which are variables other than the ones being studied that also affect the measured outcome. Table 2 in Ravnskov et al. listed all the specific variables that were accounted for in each study. However, in the study by Bathum et al. the table simply stated, “Cox regression analysis. No details” (Figure 2)...." (There's a lot more there)

healthfeedback.org/claimrev...

[Efka]

Brilliant and thorough thank you!

[Paul12 in reply to Efka]

OK then - high oxidised LDL and heart disease and strokes: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

And as for this? bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6...

The team chose studies from only one database and only those published in English. The review didn’t look at HDL cholesterol levels, other health or lifestyle factors, or use of cholesterol-lowering medications. The authors themselves said that “We may have overlooked relevant studies as we only searched PubMed” (an online search for medical publications), and they may have excluded studies that evaluated LDL-C as a risk factor for death, if the study did not mention it in the title or abstract. “We may have overlooked a small number of relevant studies because we only searched papers in English,” they added.

More detailed debunking: bhf.org.uk/informationsuppo...

Referenced and detailed analysis: escardio.org/Education/Prac...

Expert comment - not all with conflicts of interest: sciencemediacentre.org/expe...

So many many more.

Now try reading this: sciencedirect.com/science/a...

Always read rapid responses:

"We are saddened to learn that Drs. Verdonk and van Lennep already experienced mischievous misuse of our observational study by those who mistrust the causal association between LDL cholesterol and risk for cardiovascular disease in general and the favorable effects of cholesterol-lowering therapy in particular. Indeed, one of the rapid responses to our paper by Ravnskov and co-authors follow exactly this type of misuse, a potential misuse we discussed thoroughly before publication, and even considered whether we should publish this data or not. We were firmly convinced that the data should be published, as we believe in the truth and in evidence-based medicine. As stated in our paper, it is important to understand that our results are based on observational analyses. Thus, they say nothing about the causal role of LDL cholesterol in the development of cardiovascular diseases or mortality, and our results cannot be used to assess the potential effect of LDL cholesterol lowering therapies. For that we have abundance of strong experimental, genetic, and clinical trial evidence (2-5). We trust that the BMJ and readers of this excellent and evidence-based scientific journal will reject misuse of our results that harms public health."

bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m42...

Then there's this:

Conclusions In the general population, low and high levels of LDL-C were associated with an increased risk of all cause mortality, and the lowest risk of all cause mortality was found at an LDL-C concentration of 3.6 mmol/L (140 mg/dL).

bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4266

3.6...which is mine!

[pasigal]

I think it's promising. This review of studies on bergamot by the NIH is pretty optimistic, although as usual with supplements there are few quality controls.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Here's the key takeaway: The results of five different clinical trials (Table 1) using bergamot in various forms suggest the polyphenol fraction can lower LDL-C and total cholesterol. Several studies suggested that bergamot polyphenols can reduce triglycerides and increase HDL-C, however, the results were not consistent across all studies. One possible explanation for this variability (i.e. TG and HDL-C) is that bergamot preparation, extraction, and standardization varied in several studies.

As to the question of whether cholesterol is the culprit in CAD: Depends on your genetic profile, of course some people can live with high cholesterol without getting heart disease. Me, personally: No.

What I've been told repeatedly is that you can control cholesterol via diet (how much depends on your starting point), but that statins will get you into the lower-risk zones much more easily and effectively.

[Morningasker in reply to pasigal]

with enormous side-effects over the years !

[pasigal in reply to Morningasker]

Morningasker I have not noticed any significant side effects. But the side effects of not taking statins for me were most likely two heart attacks...I say this because my brother has an identical genetic profile to me in that we both have high Lipoprotein A levels. He was put on low doses of statins in his late 30, while I was not. His coronary arteries are much less blocked than mine -- we both are very active and ate relatively healthy diets. Only significant difference was statins.

[Morningasker in reply to pasigal]

I made the following:60 pounds weight off, BMI now 21.5, no alcohol, no tobacco, almost no sugar, as little as possible carbohydrates, working frequently in the garden, walking every day 1-2 hours, avoid toxic people, no statins.

Feeling great, LDL not as low a my cardiologist would like to see it, but calcium scan very low, this is what counts. Don't get scared by doctors.

Statins are a huge a business, never forget that.

[pasigal in reply to Morningasker]

I agree 100% that if you are starting from a point where you can reduce weight, cut alcohol/tobacco, improve exercise etc then you can cut a lot of your risks without statins. But I was already at a good weight, don't drink/smoke and cycled 100 km a week. If I lost 60 pounds I'd be basically a skeleton.

Heart disease and treatments need to be tailored to everyone's situation.

Now, if I could only avoid toxic people!😐

[Morningasker in reply to pasigal]

What about trying keto ?See Ivor Cummins at Youtube

[pasigal in reply to Morningasker]

I did try the Esselstyn diet (ie 10% fat, no nuts/oils, only fruit/veg/grains/beans etc) and it cut my already low LDL by 1/3. But I couldn't live like that. I'm not sold on keto, but again, I'm sure it works fo some people. It's quite effective in losing weight, from what I've read, so that alone should reduce cardiovascular risk.

My thinking is you have to commit to a couple of variables, or you'll never be able to tease out what's making a difference. I'm going with A)Diet: Low but not crazy low fat, very little meat, some fish, low-ish carbs, no processed foods -- this is what makes me feel good and gives me enough energy; B) Exercise; C) controlling stress; D) statins. I'm two years on from a serious heart attack and all signs look good...so far. I'm under no illusions that I'm "cured" or any of that nonsense...but I believe I'm controlling my risk factors to a point where I feel comfortable and reasonably well informed.

[MumaLines]

You have not said what your Bad Cholesterol level is? Have you been prescribed a Statin?

[Blearyeyed]

I tried a thorough trial of Bergamot before I had a diagnosis of Familial Cholesteroleima and my Heart Problems which required me to take statins.It did not have a significant effect on my cholesterol or triglycerides after a three month trial.

I put my long suffering husband through the same trial he does not have heart problems but has Type 1 Diabetes and wanted to try an option other than statins as a preventative for high cholesterol. My husband , poor dear, tried it for six months.

He also had no significant change in his cholesterol levels after three and six months .

Unlike many people whom try statin free cholesterol cures we did not change any other parts of our diet or behaviour during the time we trialled the Bergamot. We already had a healthy diet.

We made no other changes so that we would know that if we saw a significant change in our results we could assume that the Bergamot caused it.

Unfortunately, in our trial on two people with different genetic cholesterol profiles we found Bergamot did not help to reduce cholesterol.

We had our cholesterol blood tests done by the GP both before testing it and after it,

I keep saying , my poor husband , because in case you didn't know Bergamot juice or powder is incredibly bitter and even added into a juice or taken in capsule form it's not exactly what you would call a pleasant start to your day. It can also increase acid reflux for regular sufferers even if it's taken with food.

Hope that helps. Bee

[Hidden]

Hi 👋 Everyone, I know I'm a little bit late to this rather heated debate but it caught my attention because I decided to stop taking statins some 4 mths post bypass surgery. Like a lot of us hearties I found the side effects whether imagined or not intolerable.

However, this decision does cause me to have sleepless nights particularly as I've just had my annual review and my overall cholesterol levels have doubled since I kicked statins into touch.

It's less than 5, though higher than the recommendation for individuals like myself it's still a worry, but rightly or wrongly only time will tell.

And I think this why there's such a heated debate with regards to cholesterol levels. It's time!

Unlike other medication say, antibiotics. Which have an immediate effect. This is clearly not the case with statin therapy. As my GP remarked "I'm not telling you that you won't have a heart attack if you take daily statin it will just lower the risk.".

I think this is the rub, will reducing your cholesterol levels extend your life and by how much?

Personally I think the jury is still out🤔.

[gladliz]

After reading most of the heated replies I bet you wished you'd never asked the question and are no wiser as to an answer. 😊