hi if someone can afford to get the tests needed privately then get treatment i.e. surgery on NHS does this mean that person gets into the surgery queue quicker and ahead of someone who does not have the money and has to wait in line for the tests first before they even get in the queue for surgery?
My logic tells me that would be the case? Is that how that would work?
Just Hypothetical musing so no need for anyone to be defensive / not getting at anyone. There will always be people with more money, that’s just life. But interested in views.
I took a bite out of savings to go private, when the private cardiologist saw the echo and other results, he moved me to his NHS list.
I have to say that (move to his NHS list) 'fast-tracked' me and there was some initial unhappiness from some NHS workers. His NHS cardiac nurse still doesn't like me but I should say here she has been highly professional towards me despite her open dislike. Others have gone on to be quite friendly whilst maintaining high quality professionalism.
The unhappiness stopped once they saw my condition(s), one memorable display of unhappiness was at my first NHS echo, the tech was frankly rude, saying I was being given 'star treatment' and no-one could be as unwell as I and the cardiologist claimed owing to my being 'too bouncy' on entry to the echo unit.
She changed her attitude once she had the echo on her screen. She answered questions politely (I asked if the 'bright spots' were thickening and scarring) after not only turned the monitor so I could see, she also opened the audio so I could hear what she was hearing. What we were seeing and hearing, btw, indicated an escalation in thickening and the effusion.
So an example of jumping queue / fast tracking because someone with same level of need was still waiting for test to determine they too needed urgent attention? Money is power. Why do the private cardiologist transfer to nhs? Surely with their commercial hats on they’d want to make more money by keeping you in private sector? That bit I don’t get?
My feeling is the private medics decide based on what they see in the private setting. In my case what they saw was one very unwell lady, and I'm happy to assume the decision to move me to the NHS list was based on my need for life-long complex medical supervision. Other private patients remain private, I think, owing to their needs being less complex - stress on 'I think', btw, this is my untrained opinion only.
What Milkfairy said. In my case the private cardiologist specifically said my care was going to be life-long - his concern was clearly my welfare. I've lived in the US and health care there is money-oriented but here it's patient welfare first and foremost.
I'm not sure if you can jump the queue for surgery by going private. I ended up seeing a cadiologist (which led to my diagnosis) privately but other than speeding some of the tests along by going private, he said the NHS congential team would pick up my care - I think other posters are correct that there are limits to how much private work some departments can/will do. Certainly I know of people who've suffered very long waits for heart surgery and going private wasn't an option, not just for financial reasons.
if you’ve had the diagnosis and tests you’ve got through faster to the congenital team? Would it not have taken longer if waited for diagnosis and tests on NHS assuming would be longer waiting than private? Therefore the person waiting for diagnosis and tests on nhs will get the congenital team a lot later than yourself. But by other post if their clinical need is greater then I guess they would be seen ahead of you in that case. Guess whichever route, clinical need is the decision maker? Interesting conundrum. Just thinking also the waiting list for surgery must be a moving feast, people on it moving up and down as clinical need arises, changes in need occur and new more in need cases come up. I guess with private that guess work is removed assuming can be done privately.
You'd hope clinical need will always come first! I have very mixed feelings about a 2 tier health system but after 16 hours waiting for a cardiac bed in A&E I decided to call it quits at 4am, take the pressure off the NHS and call BUPA. The fact that I now know there's a problem doesn't necessarily mean it'll be treated any faster, but you're right, if they can see what they're dealing with maybe they will get me in sooner? That said, my 89 year old step gran has had all kinds of heart procedures in the last 12 months and they never seemed to give her much of a wait, which suggests clinical need can win out if the rest of the odds are also in your favour.
There needs to be beds available in a suitable ward for recovering cardiac patients to move into. In my case three wards were involved. At the lowest level there were quite a few 'bed blockers' which meant people couldn't move into the top tier of treatment as there were nowhere available to shuffle people into, lower down the line.
The 'bed blockers' were inevitably those who at the time needed another few days treatment at a relatively low level of care, or had no one immediately available at home to look after therm.
I discussed this with many doctors and nurses who invariably said the problem was caused by getting rid of beds lower down the chain, in places like 'cottage' hospitals. There is a belief by the hierarchy that 'virtual wards' fill the gap but of course they don't.
I believe we have lost 20000 beds over the last 15 years nationwide. As the population increases, ages and needs more medical attention it seems a barking mad thing to get rid of beds.
I agree about the cottage hospitals, and also it was madness getting rid of the convalescent homes. My mother had a hip replacement back in 1975, and she lived alone. I lived at the other end of the country with 2 very small children and was unable to look after her. She spent 2 weeks in a convalescent home which gave her the strength and stability to cope at home. No wonder people are now on trollies in A & E for hours waiting for beds to become available.
Technically you relieved NHS of an immediate acute pressure but returned for treatment so it’s temporary I guess, unless can pay for all private, the pressure remains. You’ve just brought it forward based on outcome of private quicker tests. But it’s good to see they prioritised your step gran, whether or not clinical❤️
I think initially you do not know what the clinical need is, until you take the tests, so the diagnosis part you definitely get there faster. Problem is that they take staff away from NHS but then again the NHS need to look after their staff staggeringly better than they do. I would not go private by principle but I do have private dentist due to the impossible task of getting the other. Cost me £600 this week due to needing root and I am on very low income due to health and debt.
Its quite a dilemna I know. I guess it's what some ideologists want and we only live once and need to be healthy and productive. Often,, even somebody not working is productive as they are often tourists and spend money etc etc.. As citizens in a rich country we should be looked after better than a developing country. So we/you are forced into this moral dilemna at no fault of our own. I suppose the only way out of this is to influence with our votes and comments. Trying not to get into politics but it is political. I think most people want a capitalist system but with excellent care for the people of all ages.. I would hope so anyway.. A lot of the problems we face is that we have an outdated government system nt fit for modern times..
the need is there just not the money, so it’s not a case of if you are feeling so bad you’d pay the money as if you can’t be that bad if you are putting up with it and waiting. And yes it’s a case of just suffering, that’s reality and the norm for many many people. Morals doesn’t come into, if you can pay great but it could get you ahead of the queue, it’s unfair but most of life is.
All the empathy for the private dentist problem. My hand has also been forced. Consultant cardiologist was insistent that I find a dentist for health reasons ( endocarditis if teeth become infected) and even wrote it in GP letter following 2 year review. 2 years post AV replacement and I have my first appointment soon with 3 more extractions to follow. It took me this long to find a dentist prepared to give antibiotic cover for invasive treatment. And it will cost most of my monthly earnings to pay for it. ( same as you, lower income and lower capacity to work since op.) I wish you luck.
Yep! I have a crt implant due on nov 8th and last week discovered I had a tooth abscess so had to get it fixed. The cost is worse than the treatment mentally. Would have been cheaper to get extracted but I really dio not want no upper left teeth and one at front
i am sorry to hear you had to pay for dental treatment I think that is absolutely shocking as everyone knows there is a link between dental health and heart disease, I live in Scotland and I unfortunately I needed some teeth out but my hospital has its own dentist and it was all done in house by a dentist very experienced in cardiac patients
The NHS does say clinical need determines your place on a waiting list. But getting tests done quicker (privately), must mean that occasionally an urgent clinical need becomes identified earlier?
yes and so the queue is jumped as a result. Because someone else waiting for a test gets identified later and the private person has already had the resource expended on them even though the person who waited for NHS test may have had an even greater need. It’s the power that having money brings and the better health outcomes. An person who is seen quicker may not detioriate as much as someone who had to wait for a free test but both people have the same clinical needs had they both been tested at the same time, So the person who had to waited needs even greater resource as a result as their needs may have increased and so even more demand on the NHS resource.
My recent experience is that I was on a 5-6 month waiting list for a CT scan after referral from the Rapid Access Chest Pain Clinic. I eventually got fed up with this and decided to use my work Private Medical Insurance to get the tests done. I confirmed the NHS hospital would accept the test results for further treatment. Then it was one phone call with the PMI provider that took three minutes to give me an authorised claim code, and one call with the recommended private hospital and I had an appointment for the following week.
Unfortunately the heart attack and resulting 4x CABG happened in that week! Whilst the NHS was amazing at treating me, I do feel that if I had been warned at the outset of the 5-6 month waiting list I could have gone private immediately and taken action much sooner...
I am in a slightly different situation, and I don’t know the answer to this. I have already been to a consultant’s clinic on the NHS - although I saw his registrar, and I am already on the waiting list for a catheter ablation.
I’m thinking of booking a private appointment with the same consultant, just so that I can get a better grasp of what’s happening with my current medications.
But then I worry if I could lose my place on the NHS list.
I might just try phoning the cardiology clinic first, but a face to face private appointment might really help.
that’s where the conflict of interest is, they are your consultant for free but to get med advice they can charge? Where is the ethics in this. Tapfoot is right and I think the NHS consultant should answer your med questions as related?
I think my first step is to phone Cardiology, as I now have a number. It’s for atrial fibrillation and we don’t have the nurses in my region. I was moved onto a ‘pill in the pocket’, and advised that if it didn’t work in 6 hours I was to attend A&E for a cardioversion. This didn’t happen, and the same advice was given between medications, and again doesn’t happen at A&E. Plus the long wait only exacerbated things so that I burst into tears. Dear me. It’s never the most pleasant place to be.
I suppose the thing is that I’m not really in danger as I’m anticoagulated, yet the EP sets more importance on staying in rhythm than the emergency dept does. Understandably really, as they’re dealing with emergencies.
interesting, some people here have posted they went private for tests then treatment on NHS? They should be separate systems for equality and fairness but I guess in this country the private sector just wouldn’t make enough money unless private health insurance was more accessible and affordable to many more people.
Hi, if you pay for any treatments or surgery they are not performed under the NHS rather a private hospital or diagnostic suite such as Nuffield or BUPA.
I recently paid for a cardiac MRI at the Nuffield diagnostic suite in MCR rather than wait months. We don’t have private healthcare so paid out of our own pockets and although retired it was worth the spend.
I am already receiving NHS treatment it just meant that when I had my regular follow up appointment this morning my cardiologist had the results rather than waiting months. He was unable to start any new medication without it.
The NHS does not have access to any private results unless you the patient provides them.
Initially we paid to see my cardiologist privately as the one I was seeing at the same NHS hospital I’d lost faith in. It was worth every penny and then he continued to follow me up on the NHS.
Any private treatment doesn’t speed up treatment or give you priority on the NHS unless seen as urgently needed care. Does this make sense?
absolutely makes sense, you got quicker if not higher into the queue for getting treatment than someone with the same clinical need but that person may still be waiting for a test to determine that. Money buys better outcomes. That’s life!
I got nothing quicker other than peace of mind for myself and my GP. It also saved my cardiologist having to send me for one on the NHS.
I am already on medication and have been for years. I see my cardiologist every three months so it made no difference my paying for a cardiac MRI.
Because some of my symptoms have got worse he prescribed new meds on top of what I already take and would have done so regardless of the MRI.
Patients are always seen in priority of need regardless. Any private care does not cross over and Doctors on the NHS cannot access private reports without the patients permission.
I think you’ve misunderstood what I originally said.
after being diagnosed with angina in late Nov 2020 I was told I needed an angiogram but they couldn’t tell me how long the wait would be. I got the name of a consultant who would do it privately so went ahead and had it done at the end of December. Unfortunately that hospital did not do angioplasty so when I was told I needed stents for 70% and 90% blocked artery decided to pay again. I had the procedure done at the end of January due to consultant being off with Covid at a different hospital. The letter arrived for my NHS giving me an appointment for angiogram for November 2021 a year on exactly to the day I was told I needed an angiogram. Just glad I had the means to pay.
I think the answer is "maybe". A problem with the NHS is that it can take months or longer to get the tests done in the first place. If you get them done privately, and they show a real need for intervention urgently, there is no way the NHS can refuse to take note of the problem and respond appropriately.
while the person who can’t afford waits and waits till they get in the queue after a test, but someone who paid gets treatment earlier even though technically their clinical need could have been the same at the point the private tester had their results?
Around 60% of people in Ireland have private health insurance and it means you will get rapid care including all procedures that the public health system do as there are numerous excellent private hospitals over here. We also have a good public health system (HSE) but like the NHS the waits are a bit mad. This is much like the UK although far fewer people have private health insurance over there. If you have tests privately and have no insurance the HSE will recognise them so in effect you are skipping the queue. But like the UK I would imagine people with private insurance will have everything carried out by the private hospitals which in effect takes some of the pressure of the public health system. The downside is it is considerably costly as a good policy costs £4000 per couple a year.
my brother in law lives in Ireland. As I understand it only the least well off have free medical care. That includes retirees where the value of their house is taken into account
and yes he and his wife pay around 4k a year. It seems a good system
All medical cards are free to the least well off and to the over 70s with combined couple earnings less than £1050 a week (£550) single person, and your own residence is not included in the assessment. The NSE national health service is like the NHS in the UK and is basically free to all people. GPs are free only to medical card holders as otherwise they are around 50 euros (£45) a visit. The only thing I found as at over 70 I have my first medical card is you get much better service from a GP when you are paying as opposed to a rushed visit when your not. As I said 60% of people have private health insurance here and I find it invaluable at this stage in life. So yes it is a good idea once you can afford it which unfortunately 40% of people do not. They are the ones on the 6 month waiting lists for scans etc.
I was sent to hospital last year experiencing angina clusters and a very low heart rate 38bpm. My GP hoped I would be fast tracked to Cardiology. Having spent the day on AAU and looked after very well in my local hospital I was told I would get an urgent appointment with Cardiology. It came through for 3 months later was cancelled the next day and rescheduled for another 3 months. 6 months after presenting with chest pains. I booked a private appointment at Addenbrookes Cardiology Dept (Not Papworth). I had several tests that I paid for and was taken off two meds including Bisoprolol. I felt so much better almost immediately. The cardiologist booked me for an angiogram as the gold standard test on his NHS list. This came through after 7 months a reasonable wait under the present circumstances. So I don’t believe the NHS does not consider findings that you have paid for privately. Also my local hospital requested their findings be sent to them for their records.
I absolutely hate the term ‘bed blocker’ it conjures up a picture of a person languishing in a bed when it’s not required and makes that person demoralised.
Not necessarily. A private consultation can help set your mind at rest a lot quicker but any treatment you need will happen just as quickly or slowly as it would have done depending on how urgent it is. You will certainly get onto the nhs waiting list quicker because you were diagnosed sooner bu t the waiting time would be the same. The only time I've "queue jumped" was when I saw a spinal consultant privately having waited in extreme pain for over a year to see someone on the NHS. He admitted me into hospital there and then on his own list of patients.
I’m 80 years old and worked from being 15 years old until 65, NEVER having claimed a penny in State Benefits. Coming from a poor background it was the usual pattern of life - raised a family, bought a house but always tried to save - especially in later years. Was unexpectedly diagnosed with severe heart failure in December 2020 when everything was locked down and NHS was becoming overwhelmed. Decided to go private to expedite treatment. Long story short and 12 months later was classified (still am) as heart being “mildly impaired” only. Costs have totalled about £9,000, the most expensive single test being the angiogram which was £2,235, followed by bi-annual ECGs at £325 a time. I have earned my nest egg through a lifetime of work. It was pointless at my age to go on to the ‘overloaded with COVID’ NHS waiting lists when I had savings. My working class conscience has been salved by believing that by removing myself from the NHS lists, another person moves one up in the queue who has not got the funds to pay.
I’m just wondering if anyone has considered going abroad for treatment. I was thinking India for example. I have mitral valve problem as well as tricuspid valve and AF. Yet to have a face to face with a cardiologist, just put on drugs. From what I’ve read Wales has a pretty appalling record with mitral valve surgery, long waits and consequent bad outcomes.
certainly worth looking into if you can get reliable references for cardiologists that specialise, with flights and accommodation still be cheaper. I guess you have to consider how to manage aftercare when you get back to Wales. But NHS would pick that up. I’d imagine the more straightforward your surgery the better.
I can't say I've ever had problems getting Cardio appts on the NHS, aside from delays on one of my surgeries, but, it being a cracking summer that year I wasn't overly bothered. Already have appts for a Pacemaker check, Echo and with a Cardiologist arranged for the next few months, along with an Endoscopy next week. Maybe being in the system for a long time helps.
I think it's debatable whether or not, going from private back to the NHS is queue jumping. My reasoning is that the system needs both, and if it helps the overall queue in moving on, is it a bad thing.
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Would have been cheaper to get extracted but I really dio not want no upper left teeth and one at front
Chest pain holding something in my arms !!!!!
Type II Diabetes and Blood Glucose Testing
Medication blackmail!!!!
Face to face appointment 
Aftercare from hospital after CABG (or lack of!) 
