I have been in and out of hospital at least 6 times last year with heart pain and heavy palpitations and had been told that all tests where negative.
Fortunately I was due for a review from a past admission which culmulated in an angiogram . The results from this indicated a possible blockage, but this would need to be confirmed by the cardiologist concerned This Came as a letter advising I had been put on a waiting list for another angiogram to determine a pressure test but the waiting list was no short.
I planned a holiday for January 2019 some months earlier so we flew to Madeira as planned . Within two days I had a real serious angina attack resulting me being rushed to the city hospital who were already under immense stress due to the serious cases of influenza that was rampant . Despite this they hospitalised me immediatly and undertook an angiogram the following morning to find a major artery was blocked and they fitted a stent to resolve the problem
Why am I unhappy . Well two years earlier the same thing happened and again with all the signs of a major issue with my heart I was put on a waiting list and it just so happened we were travelling to Madeira and yes you guessed it I was rushed to hospital towards the end of our holiday to the same hospital same surgeon who undertook an immediate angiogram and fitted two stents
Why is it this little island with low resources are able to instigate immediate action when the Uk seem paralysed in taking action when you really need it ? I don’t understand it anymore and could well have cost me my life.
Is this really acceptable in 2018/19?
I am sorry my posting has caused so much issue between members I can only base my experience from the events over the last two years Whilst I appreciate that many people do cherish what care they have experienced, this has not been my situation .
it’s not the fact that this has been an isolated incident either this is based on events over a two year period at different times months and taken by ambulance to my local emergency treatment centre on many occasions The ambulance teams have been first class and have always given me considerable support and comfort so no issues there, but it is what happens after that is concerning .
My last visit was by ambulance and the normal checks are done via ECG and blood tests which is fine . it’s also known that the results of these blood tests take two hours , which is also fine . But to be told in my case you need to wait a further 8.5 house maybe 12 hours sitting on a plastic chair, when the results are already known as being Ok to see a doctor isn’t . At that point I was tired and exhausted and signed myself out there and then and made my way home by taxi well after midnight.
What I don’t agree with in this example is that despite the poor aftercare AND that it was already established that the blood tests were clear , I was expected to wait a further 8 hours or more to get this information which was wrong anyway as a later angiogram showed there was an issue and now in a January zi have had a stent fitted and confirmation of other coronary heart disease ... so who is at fault here me for keep going to A&E for at least 6 times in 2018 or the the hospital in not taking taking the issues seriously given the fact I had two stents fitted two years earlier to which they already missed the opportunity to do something then . what really annoyed me was a letter from a cardiologist suggesting the problem was my fault for not attending an appointment when in fact I was unable to do so as I was in hospital in Madeira having the heart surgery and stents fitted ... I do in this instance feel justified in raising my concerns despite the many postings that suggest otherwise . If you have had great care then ai am very pleased for you . But for me over a two year period it did not happen at all and this is why this posting was made and for no other reason .....
Thank you to all who have posted (for or against) Could I just add all I wanted to show in my posting was MY experience I didn’t think I implied any debate only to allow me air my concern that I felt in my instance I was left a lot short as far as support and care Not to worry , and no offence taken , but I will take care in future when posting regards to everyone
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Quovadisuk
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So what have the NHS said in response to your complaint about this leading hospitals " incompetence " Please be reassured I am not trying to pick a argument just wondering what they have said.
I had a similar experience in Atlanta - they sent me away and told me all was fine. 100% certainty I had no issues. They turned out to be wrong. Not a funding or a resource issue. They just missed it.
Same things happen to me. I went to Southend hospital they didn't check correctly I went to holiday Turkey and I had to go piravite hospital there and they straight find out with anjiyogram I was lucky return to UK and done triple bypass operation.
It’s so annoying and we hear so many such examples.
Preceding my OHCA whilst cycling I had gone to doctors complaining of heart burn, I’d never experienced it before so odd. I was very fit, never smoked etc. No underlying condition. I went to GP 2 other times and actually phone again the same day as I wasn’t happy. I knew deep down it was serious. I requested a referral letter to open private health claim and GP refused. She actually said “I have another cyclist like you who’s convinced he has a heart problem and like him you don’t so I won’t give a referral letter, I’d feel stupid writing it” . Two days later I almost died, 25 miles out in countryside,
I’ve been plagued with aches and pains ever since, I hate them, but been to A&E more times than I care to mention, including in France. Always get all clear but these stories of NHS let down always concern me.
I had been seeing a cardiologist privately, in first 14 months he gave me 3 stress tests the latter of which he really ramped up to fitness level on Bruce scale. So I was fine but that was September 2017, last time I saw him in April 2018 he refused to give me a stress test as said I did t need it. But why not it was on private health!
I believe an ECG under stress exercise is only real non evasive means of checking.
I worry there’s a real complacency due to my previous fit and healthy history and fact arteries were totally clear other than one blockage.
Who know but I was so annoyed with GP for turning me away. We saved a brother of a friend as he was being dismissed with same symptoms we told friend my story and she got her brother to push back & guess what they found a blockage!
I too passed a stress ECG with flying colours, I felt ill most of the time so kept going back till the cardiologist relented and arranged an angiogram which revealed three badly blocked arteries one of which was impossible to bypass. I think some us have very strong hearts with faulty plumbing which fool the non invasive tests!
I was extremely lucky with NHS. I was admitted from Rapid Access Clinic and was in hospital 7 night and echo angiogram as well as X-rays and scans on various organs all carried out when I was in. Within a few weeks of release I started rehab.
The NHS and the principles that underpin it are amazing but the fact is that there isn't enough money for the pressures it now faces. I personally think that as much as it goes against everything the NHS stands for, I feel the only way of improving the service is for a massive change in funding. You only have to look at the headlines in the last week saying that there are going to be improvements in the next few years to save lives, which suggests to me that lives are being lost unnecessarily now. I had chest pain and breathlessness whilst in Croatia...I presented at a very minor hospital but walked off the street and within 2 minutes was having an ECG...something has to change.
This is why the government is trying to add the tax on sugar and tax on supermarkets, the main purveyor of ever-increasing Cardiac patients, who are considered "lifestyle Cardiac patients" from a much younger age.
I go even further, NHS cannot keep sorting out lifestyle-related ailments, including obesity and associated cardiac patients. Patients who had kept a sensible lifestyle never get any attention from NHS Cardiology when we finally NEEDED it in our later years. Maybe, supermarkets can fund Cardiac departments/expensive scanners for "their" patients. I would not say this, lightly. Supermarkets cannot keep selling high sugar food and think all is well because it's far from the truth. I know MacDonald has the charity that funds some additional NHS hospital facilities. That's called, noblesse obliges and lots of charities were established from the capitalist *guilty* money, causing extra environmental pollution, health risk, tobacco, oil money, fast food etc.
You are right of course and I must stress that whilst finally in intensive care & cardiac ward my experience was excellent. The problem lies in health screening and initial tests. Finding constraints mean they filter us via our history.
As poor history you get tests, fit and healthy they tell you it can’t be your heart etc.
I literally died as a regular & thank FoD I was with a friend who not only knew CPR but was strong enough to keep going for 25mins!
Funding is clearly an issue but equallly there is waste and inefficiency. Some of it easy to resolve like joined up records.
Anyhow we have all survived probably thanks to NHS & some amazing people too.
Funny you mentioned your Croatian experience. I had similar in French Alps. I walked into A&E, no one waiting at all. Seen within minutes, blood taking within minutes, ECG too. And they kept me in overnight for observation.!
However the basic principle that the NHS is free at the point of delivery as daisy 2311 has said is very important.
In some parts of the world care is determined by whether your insurance will pay coupled with a private sector philosophy that healthcare is a business and a money making enterprise.
This can lead to more tests and potentially treatments that are not evidenced based and may not be necessary and even harmful.
A principle of medicine is first do no harm.
Do we as patients have the right to demand tests or procedures that are not evidenced based that can do us harm?
My husband's family has a strong history of heart disease.
My brother in law went to see privately a professor of Cardiology at a leading London hospital for many years. A stress tests was ordered no problems detected. A week later my bother in law had an out of hospital cardiac arrest aged 46....he survived thanks to a bystander performing CPR and the quick response of the NHS he was in the Cath lab just over an hour later.
My husband has private insurance he also had a bicycle stress test. They missed his abnormal ECG. He developed chest pain a few weeks later. So he had the wait of 2 weeks to be seen in the NHS rapid chest pain assessment clinic.
His angiogram showed an almost completely blocked artery. Stent inserted.
Yes medics are human too. There are too many patients with complex needs making demands on an inappropriately funded and bureaucratic service.
The pressures on the staff are profound.
The issue of how to provide compassionate care for the elderly with dementia overlooked. Where is the funding for Public Health and Social care?
The NHS is by no means perfect but I could not live in any other country as I could not afford the healthcare insurance premiums because I live with an unusual poorly understood long term condition.
If you want things to improve volunteer to be a Patient Representative and Advocate.
You say " do we as patients have the right to demand tests or procedures that are not evidence based that can do us harm?" Well you have to outweigh the risks and benefits and quality of life don't you?
"There are too many patients with complex needs making demands on an inappropriately funded and bureaucratic service" So does that mean patients with complex needs should give up and die? just saying.
I have to agree. I also add that if there was no private care in the UK, I would have been blinded and died a lot sooner, given the state of the NHS in their inability to consider/accommodate rare diseases. However, there are Good NHS consultants especially if you are in a major city. But they are a bit like gold dust as they tend to be much older, retiring or had already retired.
Fund-management focused consultants on NHS seem to prevail and good ones who want to put patients before funds tend to leave NHS. I have seen examples over the years.
Yes I guess it depends a lot from doctor to doctor but I agree with you that often patients are often made to feel humiliated and that they "can choose who to treat and who not to bother with". Its sad but I think often true.
What if there is no evidence base of effectiveness of the treatment which could leave you with a worse quality of life.
When this situation occurs there is usually a multidisciplinary team meeting to help to come to a decision.
E.g. whether a patient in their 90s should undergo a TAVI . The patient's views are always taken into account.
I live with a complex long term condition which requires from so far input from 4 different specialities. The quality of my life like many others with long term conditions is negatively effected.
Quality of life is very important to patients. Unfortunately the NHS at present does not relably acknowledge this issue.
So absolutely no giving up but sometimes we are made to feel perhaps we should!
It's great to have your voice, representing the long-suffering female point of view here. I strongly feel that patients, who are female/older, living with a chronic condition, should be given much better attention. They say, older women die from HA in early hours. I'm so grateful of Cardiologist, who spoke out to send some shock wave on our behalf!
There are different sub-categories in Cardiac patients and a great patient representative like MFairy and the ace Cardiology professor made it very clear.
I believe Milkfairy has just about hit the nail on the head - however, if I might just play the Devils Advocate for a moment - you and all but the last two posts mention a wrong diagnosis but having the awareness that something was very wrong - but having said that you decided to go abroad, where your outcome could have been far worse than if you had actually stayed in this country and continued your quest for further tests. I personally feel the NHS is the best in the world, what brings the service down is the DEMANDS placed upon it by those who have actually paid nothing into the system and the lethargy of the UK population to actually say and do something about it
The heavy demand placed on the service is mainly a result of people who won't take personal responsibility for their health and lead a healthy lifestyle.
I did say before. If you were on "holiday" and had to go to A & E, in the Far East, such as Tokyo, Seol or Beijing, you would be getting 1) immediate latest high-resolution scanner(s) 2) clinicians, who are very "serious" about your health. They would promise you that they would do their best and you are in safe hands and it is truly so. It seems like a totally different attitude/philosophy towards patients welfare and health. This could be cultural. They seem far better organised (they are, indeed, highly well organised) and the services are impeccable (and that's their "normal" and aren't even "proud" of it, it's just "how things go").
It seems Cardiology here as an establishment looks down on patients, who are made to feel humiliated. They have the "Cardiology" status and can choose who to treat and who not to bother with. The rude attitude of the Cardiology secretary screamed out plain and simple. And that was RBH. They could not even report my test results to me that was three years ago. I continued to deteriorate for the past three years.
The Cardiologist said, "oh, really? did you have strokes? You tell me what your symptoms were?" in a jokey manner. It was outrageous and very rude. I wouldn't get that elsewhere.
Quavadisuk: thank you for confirming my belief. It's that "nonchalant" attitude in Cardiology here that really bothers me. Medical schools may have taught them not to let their emotions get in the way and we know that they dissected cadaver as med students. That should not mean they can be reckless with patients lives and health. People go on to die. How could they sleep at night?
?What percentage of patients they had seen for the past three years had passed away because of the lack of Cardiac care? I should think women over a certain age group would be dismissed as "ageing" and unlucky. These women are those, who are discriminated against in Cardiology.
I almost began to think I may well have some stenosis after reading so many posts by other posters, who were dismissed for many years. I used to think it's "just small vascular" issues, previously. (I have valve issues, as well) I don't feel that way, now after witnessing so many "angina" female patients over a certain age bracket, who were found to have narrowing many years later.
Another thing, though. This always comes up. I was "fit and well". People who were fit and well CAN suddenly die. There are sub-groups of Cardiology patients. Not everyone has the same category of Heart Disease/CVD. It is, in fact, misleading to see any documents as if "if you are healthy, you won't get CVD. To prevent CVD, adopt a healthy lifestyle"; this is an incorrect statement. It may be so in one group of patients, but not for others. Stereotyping HD as one single disease entity has to stop. It's getting silly, almost, in this day and age where we know more about the underlying vascular disease process and human ageing.
Personally, since this NHS topic came up, how many children who had rare diseases had to go abroad to get treated? or died since NHS doctors were totally ill-informed? It would be nice if we could choose to go abroad on NHS and get our diagnostic procedures covered if there were outstanding issues, which NHS should have found much sooner. I would not be surprised if people opted to go abroad (somewhere more advanced) to get diagnosis nailed abroad and come back. It's fast becoming a "go to" plans if you have any longstanding Cardiac issues NHS don't want to deal with or only go through the motion for the sake of it.
in reply to
I really do not think anyone has suggested that if you are healthy you won't get CVD and to prevent CVD adopt a healthy lifestyle. What was suggested was that the heavy demand placed on the service is mainly a result of people who won't take personal responsibility for their health and lead a healthy lifestyle and that what brings the service down is the DEMANDS placed upon it by those who have actually paid nothing into the system and the lethargy of the UK population to actually say and do something about it. It is a fact of life that Singapore is one of the richest Nations in the world, is small and has strict immigration control and prides itself on the amenities it is able to afford for its residents, and does most sensible countries with limited amenities. I am not suggesting a discussion on immigration, but surely a country should only allow as much migration as it can stand. When I go to hospital, it amazes me how many non British names are called out in A&E and other sectors of the health service. Just have a look at a hospitals menu to decide what priorities there are to bend over backwards for everyone. Can you imagine what the staff in these places feel - overworked, under paid, shouted at, sworn at, spat at and assaulted - and thats A&E. Full of drunks and all asunder who consistently abuse their bodies with drugs, tobacco, junk food etc with no intention of even beginning to help themselves and as long as the NHS continue to treat these people and transport them free to hospital to treat them for free, they will remain in crisis. Thank God for what we do have - unless we as a country get our act together and MANAGE our amenities, it will get far worse before it gets better - and it will all be out fault for a country gets what it deserves.
This is becoming tedious - I did NOT suggest anyone had and was my meagre way of saying I hoped no one would since the situation is the one we have allowed to happen
Because I have purely outlined what is causing the NHS to become overloaded, just as someone suggested that it is also being abused you groups that have no intention of even beginning a healthy regime. My remark was purely to stop remarks exactly like your that wrings other elements into the picture, just to cause bad feeling since the situation I have described is one that we have let happen and is the Governments fault - NO ONE ELSE.
NO I DO NOT = and you know it. If you can't handle a mature educated discussion, then please do not bring your own personal bigotry into the picture......The NHS saved my life also and I have only admiration for them one and all. They are overworked for exactly the reason I mention and you know that also. I have finished with this line of interrogation -
"what brings the service down is the DEMANDS placed upon it by those who have actually paid nothing into the system"
Don't believe everything Tommy Robinson tells you, the average EU migrant actually pays £2,300 MORE tax than the average British citizen, and as predominantly young single people they're a lot lighter drain on the NHS than our own ageing population.
I preferred a slightly discreet approach. If you google, you'll know.
I think there are also some regional differences to the mix. It's a very complex subject, that I so appreciated.
in reply to
I quite agree and believe the hot spots of dissatisfaction lie around heavily populated areas, such as London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leicester - in fact most of the Midlands in general where a diversity of population can bring about an influx of differing challenges. I also believe the whole of Wales is suffering from critical under funding from a Labour regional government and Scotland spending its allocation in part by giving the population free prescriptions. Further away from London travelling south towards Cornwall believes they are being ignored by distance from the capital and the way their population is most distributed about their areas. There is no magic wand but one thing is sure, we are all paying the same in taxes and the service should be uniform throughout, especially where the population is thin. One of the suggestions Mrs May has suggested with her adjustments to the NHS includes farming the less urgent cases to be treated locally by family doctors. You never know what might be next - perhaps the innovative suggestion to build "Cottage Hospitals in rural areas - that would be good surely.....................More worthwhile cottage hospitals have been closed than any other resource and that was a criminal event that passed almost without comment from the majority.
I'd had years of private medical check-ups and examinations and always received the all clear. So private medicine, in this country in Canada and in the US, didn't spot my heart disease despite an open cheque book and something in excess of thirty routine medicals.
After I retired I went to see my NHS GP, and trotted out the same story that so many on this forum have used, "I'm sure this is only indigestion Doctor but..."
In my case as in so many others the system swung into action. Tests led to more serious tests, which then led to a triple bypass operation, followed up with a comprehensive cardio rehab programme.
Sure it can occasionally be a bit clunky and rough around the edges, but you'll never persuade me other than that the NHS, and all who sail in her, are pretty damn fantastic!
I am sorry to learn of your problem. My family have nothing but praise for the NHS, my late son had Cystic Fibrosis, he was looked after by the NHS, my eldest Grandson has Friedreichs Ataxia and is in the last stages of the genetic illness, he too has been beautifully looked after at the NHS hospital and now the Hospice.
Firstly thank goodness you got treatment promptly and successfully and you are recuperating well.
I can understand your frustration and sense of being let down and also respect the opinions expressed by others of their good care and experiences. To be honest what happened to you worries me and I don’t think we achieve anything collectively by arguing about who is wrong/right, it seems a great deal more complex than that.
It isn’t always a question of resources and I am depressed that in a lot of these posts that lines seem to almost be being drawn about who might be more worthy of care and who we can be spotted out as having made lifestyle choices that have contributed to their downfall - again not always that simple or obvious - but it gives a sense of comfort to others I suppose.
That doesn’t mean that I endorse the general malaise of people not to adopt informed and healthy lifestyles.
However look at the debate on here as to what constitutes good dietary choice, not always clear at all.
The system when it works is good, sometimes excellent, when it’s bad it’s awful and potentially life threatening. We have to find a way to debate this rationally and honestly and accept that every opinion expressed has some validity without necessarily being an attack on the NHS. We can only ever reflect personal experience and Quovadisuk has done that, alerting all of us to the importance of being persistent and alert to problems. It does seem a shame that despite his efforts and symptoms this doesn’t seem to have been acted on with more immediacy.
My treatment in A&E when I had a heart attack was abysmal. I was left alone on a corridor behind locked doors for 4 hours before anyone even did the blood test but once I was admitted my care was amazing apart from one thing- a total lack of information or feedback from the consultant who fitted the stents. I got absolutely nothing except an incredibly technical discharge letter that I didn't understand at all. NO number of phone calls to his secretary could get any information and it was several weeks before I could get a GP appointment. Then when I had problems with tablets I only got phone calls from 6 different GPs each of whom suggested something different to the point that one ended up taking me off all my BP medication. When you've suddenly had a heart attack without warning, you need to know why and you need continuity of care. Last week I saw "my own" GP for only the second time since August and that, after a 5 week wait. I know why but that doesn't help me or make my treatment safe. I've just been put back on beta blockers but my BP is averaging around 95/58 and the beta blockers will drop it even further but I have to wait 3 days for a phone call from a GP. Overworked, underfunded, stressed out doctors.
I had another heart attack 3 weeks ago. My care was first class, cardiologists did rounds in the morning and the same one came back later in the day to see if there were any questions I needed answers to. The rehab nurse as promised got her colleagues to call me a week after discharge. I think its a postcode lottery 😢
That's all I needed; 5 minutes of his time to answer questions. I did not get it even when I went for a second angiogram. Gosh I'm so sorry you had another one. Didn't they see a problem after the first one? Did they explain why?
I am under investigation for afew heart related problems but that has been the third heart attack around Xmas for the past three years. I don't always go to hospital though with symptoms as I usually spend my time in there with migraine and vomiting so have to lie in the dark for days. I hope you get some answers soon though.
Oh for goodness sake; how do you cope? I was a wreck after mine. I pray there are no more. I've had so many problems with the tablets I couldn't start that again.
And unfortunately - the patient suffers. I was under the impression that family doctors had a duty of care to heart patients and would be seen anytime but as an emergency, having to wait at beginning or end of day for the duty doctor to get through the days emergency appointments. Thats the care I received and could not have asked for better. During my open heart surgery, the level of care was superb until I went to the intensive care unit, which I am sorry to say was abysmal and got no better when in the recuperation ward. However I believe that was down to leadership which was almost non existent with staff almost doing as they pleased with patient care. Since the age of patients in the ward was older, I felt the treatment was with indifference and no interest in the people they were supposed to be motivating to improve their own recovery. Since leaving hospital my care has been top notch. I personally think this lack of structured management and leadership is a malaise that runs right through the NHS with no real joined up thinking.
I left a reply earlier to a post, which went something like this " If we don't voice are concerns to the Executive of the NHS Trust treating us why do we bother to complain on a Public Forum !!! I wonder how many of us are still alive and kicking years after the NHS missed our diagnosis. I know if I was feeling unwell with a serious potential illness I wouldn't risk going abroad on Holiday. There is no free treatment abroad the Government pays for your treatment after you have arrived home E111 Was it North Staffs were no one complained when they could see their loved ones dying through neglect. Is one of the problems that we have been conditioned into Nurses, Doctors, Ambulance Crews are all overworked, which is not a reason to continue experiencing poor care. We are conditioned into not making a complaint because we fear being labelled a trouble maker, and not appreciating the care we are being given. ( Which we have paid for ) Nothing is free the NHS costs billions they just haven't used it very smart.. Every day I went to work I worked very hard it was Expected
I will tell you something I owe my life to the quick response of the NHS following my heart attack in 2010, the availability of a 24 hour Cath Lab and the follow up care. My wife has a heart problem, Chrohns disease and a stoma and is insulin diabetic, I am recently diagnosed as T2 diabetic. My answer to you is if this was not free at the point of delivery courtesy of our wonderful NHS i would be paying medical bills until I reached the age of 150! The NHS is under great strain from the demands on it from the increase in population of this country and so called health tourists taking out but not paying in. If you think the pay as you fall sick system is so good you have the option of private treatment in this country and I suggest you avail yourself of it. Whilst the NHS is paying for boob jobs, many rounds of IVF etc the sick will suffer! Sorry if you dont like my reply but the NHS is a wonderful system that can never be all things to all people but it does its best and I for one are eternally grateful for it as you should be!
"The NHS is under great strain from the demands on it from the increase in population of this country and so called health tourists taking out but not paying in."
Let me pick up on both those points Geoff. The problem for the NHS isn't so much an increase in population as an increase in the OLDER population. They're the one's who place the greatest demands on NHS services and, as the baby boomer population retires, their number will now begin to shoot up. What we need in this country is many more YOUNGER people, that's a demographic reality worth bearing in mind when thinking about one of your other points, that IVF somehow detracts from the health care available to others!
Regarding "health tourists", a comment from the British Medical Association website puts this in context...it accounts for no more than 0.3% of NHS expenditure.
In other words health tourism is a tiny rounding error, so don't let yourself be be deceived or manipulated by those people who try and whip up fear and hatred over this trivial matter. It's also worth bearing in mind the vast number of elderly Brits who currently enjoy health care overseas, much like the original poster of this thread having a stent fitted on two separate occasions courtesy of Madeira. I don't know the exact numbers but I'll guess the 300,000 retired Brits, who live in Spain cost the Spanish health authorities rather more than 0.3% of their budget!
Let's not get distracted by trivia like "boob jobs", instead let's focus on the real burdens facing the NHS. A fast ageing population with the worst of the demographic timebomb still to detonate, and secondly an increasingly unfit population. It's tragic that just when smoking rates fall (so we would otherwise be enjoying a health care dividend) obesity rates are rocketing, which will massively increase heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and many other chronic illnesses which are all horribly expensive to treat.
The main difference is the terrible burden you think older people put on the NHS is the fact that they in the main PAID for it and are entitled to receive the care they PAID for! IVF and Boob jobs are not an illness or disease, they are a lifestyle choice and as such should not be paid for out of NHS funds! Health tourism whatab out the £500,000 one woman cost for maternity and neonatal car after being rejected by the US for the same reason, how many heart ops would that pay for? and thats only one example! Doctors and hospitals bill the and they just stick two fingers up and walk away!
Dont you dare blame the ageing population its them that gave you the Free health care you now get by there hard work and contributions to the system, they were not the generation that bred fat adults like todays obese generation.
Who's blaming the ageing population? As a retiree myself it's certainly not me!
However, it's simply a fact of life that older people need more health care than younger people. The fiscal reality is also that older people didn't pay tax into a fund to meet their own future care. The taxes that you and I paid were spent the moment they were received by the exchequer! So the people paying for our care, today and in the future, are the current generation of taxpayers. The problem is that there's a growing percentage of retirees looking for expensive health care from a falling percentage of taxpayers.
One final point. The picture you describe, of slim oldies and fat youngsters, is just plain wrong. Nearly three quarters of the 65 and over age category group are either overweight or obese, more than you'll find amongst any other age group.
If you google "House of Commons Briefing Paper, Obesity Statistics" you'll find the accurate figures, they make terrifying reading in terms of the implications for NHS costs.
I think you have lost the plot my friend - every person of retiring age have paid tax for their future care - that is exactly what Geoff51 has said - You are arguing for effect and twisting and calling up incorrect or biased information to continue a lost discussion - please heed reality and stop being a silly billy, theirs a god person.
You do like quoting people to make your point – however in this does not allow the reader to hear the context in which the remark was said – a much used trick of politicians from both sides. Let’s take your remark “don't let yourself be deceived or manipulated by those people who try and whip up fear and hatred over this trivial matter” Health tourism is a fact of life and costs the NHS millions even if it is 0.3% of the NHS expenditure for 0.3% of billions is a huge amount! You do try and make the most of narrow arguments – as for breast augmentation – if those who elect to have this procedure to be carried out for what ever reason and pay privately, why should the NHS have to pay to have the process reversed because it went wrong? Surely the responsible, joined up approach would be for the participant to have in place adequate insurance to cover any eventuality this elective, body enhancing surgery may have in the future. Before you again roam into trivia, this thought process does not include those genuinely in need of reconstructive surgery or repair of burns, accident and all the other reasons to have such reconstructive surgery.
As for Spain etc – they have a process where if you are unable to pay by credit card or insurance you will not be treated and are billed for everything. The Home Office has had to step in more than once to airlift a patient home to have major surgery in this country – so please do keep a perspective. I know of many people who, on a regular basis, fly home to see their doctor and receive a six month prescription top up, because Spain’s system is so expensive.
Now for the older generation and the baby boomers and how this country needs youth – presumably from the continent and beyond; Let me please remind you that the order generation of this country are in the position that of all those who use the NHS, they have paid for that privilege all of their working lives and those who come into this country have actually paid nothing in contributions towards their care. Again, please do try and use common sense and realise the implications of your narrow minded statements. I would not be surprised you are an advocate of euthanasia to rid the country of the burden of paying out state pension benefits! Another right that the people of this country have paid during their whole working life so that they could be cared for in their old age. It is not their fault that the Government of the day dipped into the funds or made unwise investments to protect and grow this pot of money - is it?
Finally an aging population has little to do with an increasingly unfit population and more to do with a culture where some believe they can do what ever they want and someone will help and pick up the bill. I refer to a previous comment where I suggested obesity was the one real cause of diabetes and that drinking in excess caused more of a drain on the NHS than any other single illness. If people wish to ignore clear evidence of these matters, then they should be expected to pay for treatment for the outcome of their predicament is a self inflicted one.
"I refer to a previous comment where I suggested obesity was the one real cause of diabetes and that drinking in excess caused more of a drain on the NHS than any other single illness. If people wish to ignore clear evidence of these matters, then they should be expected to pay for treatment for the outcome of their predicament is a self inflicted one."
So, that's pretty clear, you're saying obese people should pay for their own treatment .
But there's a problem there, besides being a bit lacking in common humanity, that conflicts with your other assertion. This is what you also said,
"Let me please remind you that the order generation of this country are in the position that of all those who use the NHS, they have paid for that privilege all of their working lives ."
So if they've already paid for their own care (they actually haven't, but I'll humour you for a moment and assume that they have), then obese or not how can you deny them treatment when, according to you, they've already paid for it?
Anyhow, I'm sure the good people of this forum have better things to do than listen to us squabble, so I'll leave you to try and untangle your own arguments, but personally I'm out of the discussion.
Just to say I hope the original poster experiences better care from the NHS in the future!
I said that your comment was the wrong way round and that being overweight was one of the main reasons for diabetes. I further said that problem drinking and their associated problems, violence, anti social behaviour, needing "drug tank" transport, special bed watch etc etc along with all of the associated illnesses, liver failure, eyesight etc is the singe most draining illness the NHS are expected to deal with on a day to day basis. Surely then as this is a self inflicted injury, they should be expected to pay something towards treatment? I did not say obesity should be treated by the person/s concerned - however, God does help those that help themselves and appears to be the scourge of the young and financially challenged in society.
Your other remarks are so confusing - paying into the system, drains on NHS, and the most barmy suggestion that the NHS should continue to fund infertility treatment to keep young blood in the system to help fund the NHS in the future is sheer lunacy.
Finally if you find logic in a discussion too difficult to understand please desist in further discussions of this nature, until you can comprehend the logic behind your somewhat dubious comments
I think this thread has identified so many issues that the NHS/Government are trying to deal with, albeit not very well at the moment. It's just unfortunate that OUR MPs can't stop using the NHS as a political football. We will spend more that you will seems to be a mantra for all sides.
Perspective I have had By pass Surgery, followed by Stents, and I do have Heart Failure ( otherwise fine ) Last week due to a bout of serious AF I spent the night in AMU just being monitored ( I wasn't ill ) so that was Friday. Settled down ok so home on Saturday pm. Monday saw my Heart Failure Specialist Nurse, Medication changes. Booked in for Echocardiogram on Friday of this week. Booked in for Holter Monitor Thursday of the following week. so my treatment has been pretty good (in fact Excellent) !!!.
I can see many faults with the NHS, major one being Administration it is so poor. Waste is also a major issue I wonder what the weight of food recycling is in a typical medium sized Hospital !!.
One further point I would like to pick up on is I am 71 I also paid £3067 Tax in the past year so I am still paying into the system, again albeit not very much but it's called Insurance. Which the State promised me they would care for me when I signed up for it in 1962 when I started work. Back in 1948 it was never envisaged that we would live to 75 and beyond remember 65 for retirement that was because Death was predicted to be at 68 .
No one would build a system like the NHS/NI today it is just not feasible. Thank God for collective Insurance I wonder what the future will bring.
regards
Oh and I also served my country, deserve a little back LOL
Like Bee2 I received only first class treatment from the NHS when I was first ill with heart failure in April. Everyone from the trainee GP, who first saw me, to the heart nurse and the cardiologists have been excellent and I will be forever grateful for that.
Ann
At the end of the day, the forum such as this is meant to provide a form of support, empathy and understanding, no matter HOW DIFFERENT your own experiences/views are. It's not about "YOU" on this thread, started by someone, who struggled a lot. If you cannot show sympathy/empathy, it's more polite to stay silent on HER thread.
It's completely pointless to say, you had a wonderful experience and implying the original thread should be simply seen as "strange" and it should not be even posted.
This is a thread started by the original poster. It's not about you or anybody else, it's hers.
I see that the original thread has been amended by the poster. I find it such a shame that she felt she had to explain more on the topic. It should not be that way.
If anybody could not agree, it's not about agreeing. It's about different experiences, by different patients. If you expect everyone to agree on the forum, well, you might as well talk to yourself. If you do not like what it says, you move onto another thread.
It's best not to make the original poster feel so much worse than she already felt! Where is the spirit of support and empathy? It's not about YOU on this thread. It's about HER.
I certainly didn’t mean to imply that the original post was strange and that I was unsympathetic to the poster’s problems. The post headline referred to the NHS so all I was trying to say that it does not always let us down. I am sorry if it was inappropriate.
The thread was about being let down by the NHS. " Sorry I have been let down Again " The response has been to show different opinions which in some cases will defend the system we all depend on for our well being, and try to offer alternatives to the Headline Post . Debate is healthy I didn't think anyone had really over stepped a line . If you seek an Opinion you will get One, You may not like it, buts that what you will get !! I agree the forum is to here help, But if you look at the replies you can see how thought provoking the post has been.
regards
Come along now children,let's behave.Why don't we all meet up and have a party,then if you want you two can have a punch up.xxx
I was in and out of hospital for over 3 years with chest pains. Everytime they said my heart was fine. However I was taken ill at work and taken to another hospital who did an angiogram and installed a stent straight away.
We are in Madeira and fly back tomorrow had to go to local hospital again due to difficulty breathing and bat lcoughing turns out I got pneumonia now on anti biopics .the health issue odoesnt stop at the moment
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Stenting a new graft 
I want to say sorry from the medical profession 
I feel let down by the medical professionals 
Told it was a panic attack when I was in fact having a heart attack 
Massive cardiac arrest 24th March
