is this a fair view of chronic illness and our lifestyle? A common response might be that in many cases we bring ill-health on ourselves because we are feckless, self-indulgent about our diets, our smoking habits, our drinking and drug-taking, even if the drugs in question are prescribed by a GP.
In other words we are reaping our just deserts. Wastrels with too much spare income or social credit payments. The welfare state throws us a life-line of self-indulgence.
My series of questions are: Is there a force within society that determines our lives, and our behaviour, irrespective of our best interests and wishes? Effectively, are our actions and life choices determined?
Are we losers through no fault of our own?
Discuss.
Written by
Cateran
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102 Replies
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I have had my chronic disease since I was three. Therefore I had no chance to make destructive life choices because I was too concentrated on managing my condition to stay alive. I don't quite know where that puts me in your queries.
Like Littlepom I have had chronic disease since the age of 5 months old, so no I don’t believe ‘you get what you deserve’ is a fair view of chronic illness and our lifestyle.
Me too, born with my chronic lung disease, never smoked or done any naughty stuff ! Illness took away my chance of going to school, no internet back then so earning a living was very hard, no social security or benefit because no one can see inside your lungs - you've " just got flue or pneumonia", go to work when you get better, I wish!
Pete and I sometimes talk about all the adverts for smoking that used to be on tv and how cool it was thought to be. Lots of people smoked because it was the thing to do.
As for food........so much choice, clever marketing, lots of promotional offers, the list goes on. Eating healthily isn’t always easy and takes discipline. I try but don’t always get it right. Biscuit or fruit? Decisions decisions!
That's just so unbelievably crazy of the Doc!!!!!!! I can't get my wee brain around that !!!! There again I once had a GP who was a heroin addict and who made false prescriptions to obtain it via the NHS. That's why he was caught as the chemist queried them. He was allowed to carry on as a GP .
Of course some people are feckless, however many are not.
Looking around at my peers.
I know many people who smoke/have smoked, eaten terrible food by choice.
Some are now ill others have, luckily remained healthy so far.
However even their feckless lifestyle may not be entirely their own fault. In my 60's, I'm of a generation that was encouraged to smoke, encouraged to try easy packet mix (mostly chemical) convenience foods.
Foods we believed to be safe we now know were/are bad for us. I fed my children instant puddings, marketed as a good way to give them milk, used food colouring and silver dragees to decorate birthday cakes yet now I know the colouring in some cases could trigger or exacerbate such conditions as asthma and those cute little silver balls were coated with aluminium!
I and many other people who attend the same British Lung Foundation Support Group : Breathe Easy, never smoked. We ate what we believed was good food (see above), were active, walked, gardened, played sport, yet there we sit at our monthly meeting learning how to cope with lung disease. (Many different diseases among us). Some members have developed there lung condition through industry. Was it their 'fault' that they took the available job to support their family?
So we hardly rate as feckless do we?
I think there is no one answer to your question. Just as there are many different lung conditions, different people who suffer from them, different treatments for those conditions so there are many different causes.
No you do what you feel is right at the time. It's not as black and white as it solely being someone's fault as non smokers can get lung cancer and copd as well as smokers do!
Hmm - never pondered that, but initial reaction is that No one held me down and forced me to smoke for 38 years. I determined my life through the big and small choices I made every single day. Now I have moderate COPD. Do I “deserve” it? Why not? Why wouldn’t I? Yes, I suppose I do. So what? I’ve quit smoking and I’m living the best life I can now. What’s past is past. My actions, determined by me, in the today - that’s the only thing I can control. So I’m not looking back, not looking forward, just living my life with (hopefully) better choices made daily.
Lots of non smokers get things like lung cancer and copd so it's not all to do with it being anyone's supposed fault as sadly these things happen and no they are not solely someone's supposed fault!
I look back! Analyse, the amount of times that my doctors etc. have said or implied things to me, over the last 2yrs! Have I listened? Yes! Maybe! BUT! Have I heard?........NO!
Trouble with being independent, usually means, first thing you do is....you don't listen! I am independent! I decide this/that, not Fate, Fortune, Mum, Dad, older Sibling! Qualified doctor, nurse!
How many times have you been ignored when trying to give a child or friend etc. the benefit of your own life experience or knowledge, only to be ignored?
I am not alone in this situation I have found myself in today! I have learned a lot of patience, I understand a lot of what the above have been trying to say to me by way of doing/saying, NOW!
But, now, is it too late to get better? l have to be positive and try to make positive lifestyle changes, there really are no longer any choices!
There have been some studies done, that show people from different areas/social classes do suffer more from certain problems. If we all had the same start in life, a mother who had enough income to buy the best foods during the pregnancy, a warm safe environment, with the parents having as little stress as possible, with whatever is considered a good diet at the time. Then we have the mental strength not to hit cigs/drugs etc, the brains and support to get a good education, therefore a good job, we will be less likely to have the long term problems. I looked at myself, when I was reading this, I had parents with good jobs and incomes, had all the support I needed when it came to school and college, however my birth and first year were dreadful, Mum went down with Cerebral Malaria and was given penicillin (was 1952), was 8 weeks before I was due, she had an allergic reaction, I appeared. Middle of Nigeria, hospital had no incubators, rare electricity supply, mother's milk not available. I threw up cows milk, goats milk and formula milk, given strained orange juice with crushed calcium tablets, could not get to UK hospital until lungs OK to fly!! I view my immune system disorder and Asthma as not surprising considering this start in life, I did get a good 34 years at the begining.
Totally agree with you redsox! I do wish I had never taken up smoking but I lived my life as fully as possible and can't regret it as it made me the person I am today and that's OK.
In one way I am different from most of you in that I have suffered from depression since childhood, and faced a stark choice in my 20's to either end my life or give myself a chance for happiness. I am 80 pc glad I chose the latter. But did my lifestyle lead to depression? No I was just unlucky enough to have a dysfunctional upbringing x
You may not be as different from as many of us as you think. The childhood of complex trauma is horribly common and leaves a lasting legacy. Hugs to you and all of us who experienced it ❤️
I am interested teenieleek in your response because you mention two of the aspects that are crucial to determinism: social class and genetics. Many of the excellent replies to this thread touch on aspects of these two determinants, one way or another, and mention ingredients from personal histories of their lives. Social Class is very vital for determinism, because the productive forces undoubtedly affect our upbringing and future development, especially with our world outlook and philosophy of life. Our biological determinism makes us what we are health wise, chronically unwell or healthy, as part and parcel of those things that determine our medical history and how often we go to our GP or into hospital, even in childhood.
No matter how much we might dismiss the notion that our life trajectories are determined by these larger forces, nonetheless they are, which is why I do not believe that luck has any effect in our fortunes, nor indeed what "luck" actually means. Luck is too small a feature to have any impact that is deterministic, unless you mean such a thing as winning a fortune on the lottery. Even then, that is not luck but a precise conflation of probabilities which are themselves mathematically "determined". So there it is...determination as a force impacting on our life.
I do feel luck or chance does have a part to play and cannot be dismissed Terry. It is surely bad luck to be, unknown to you or people looking after you, to be in the presence of someone who is in an infectious state, which for them may be uncomfortable or without symptoms but for others, especially babies, young children, elderly and immuno compromised, can be life changing.
When I was at dietitians' school, we had to learn about the psychology and sociology of eating as well as biochemistry and anatomy. And that was before genetics were coming to the fore. We all have social, psychological, genetic and historic influences modifying our behaviour as well as medical, financial and experiential factors. It would be unfair to deny someone treatment just because they had crossed a notional behavioural line: there but for the grace of God go I.
The Japanese have a saying 門前の小僧習わぬ経を読む literally "An apprentice near a temple can quote the scriptures untaught". Very often people are the product of what they learn from birth. Very often if parents smoke, the children end up smoking too. Environment is a huge factor.
At risk of sounding like I'm some kind of saint, 😓😩 I find it hard to think anyone deserves their lot. I don't believe I have that right. If people indeed reap what they sow, then I know enough very, very decent people suffering from the outcome of smoking and alcohol that to my mind do not deserve to suffer to this extent. People who have contributed to the community, and been outstanding human beings. And if they do deserve it, they have paid it back ten times over through their suffering. It's easy I suppose to make sweeping judgements on people. But behind every face there is a story that we won't ever get the chance to read.
Hi my Love, been a bit Poorly, but recovering well, had the Resp., Nurse to visit me, back on the "Devils Tic Tacs". Going out the house today, been indoors all week, so some fresh air will do me Good. Onwards & Upwards, we Know this Line very well don't we my Buddy. Love n Big Hugs to you & Chom. XXXX C.
Oh no Carolina. 😔 I think this time of year is very bad for many. Just going into the cold season. Please take it easy and be careful when out. It's so easy to pick bugs up. Keep your chin up, it will be okay. Loads of love to you. xxxx 😘💕💜💙💕💚💕
Hello Caspiana, good to hear from you again on this forum and ditto Hacienda below with her best wishes for you.
My reference to "deserve" was just part of my rhetorical strap line at the start of my thread and not a pejorative comment. I was not implying that we receive any just deserts nor that there is any "justice" in what happens to us through misfortune of any sort. I argue that determinism, much like evolution, is an impersonal force with no moral connotations whatsoever, rather like the cosmos: it simply does not care. Indeed I share your sentiments about human misfortune because I am human and a rational thinker (for the most part).
Quite the opposite. I was suggesting that we are all subject to, our lives determined by, a combination of forces outwith our control, which is precisely our human tragedy. Not in any mystical or religious sense but painful nevertheless. It is as Caspiana said, she was not taking me literally.
All of my close friends smoke. I have never smoked. They're all perfectly healthy and I'm not. I don't think these things are always down to life style choices, it's just luck, or bad luck, of the draw. Or maybe passive smoking is really really bad!
I agree with most of what is written above. It’s clearly a combination of genetic, social, psychological and environmental factors in making us what we are. There’s still many unknowns such as autoimmune diseases where the body starts attacking itself for no apparent reason that are so common now and which I suffer from. I just think it’s important to make wise choices in life and that’s what I’ve tried to pass on to my children albeit unsuccessfully as one of them still smokes and seems unable to give up.
While we might all have regrets it’s not very helpful in going forward.
There’s always someone going through much bigger stuff than you.
I think alot must be down to genetics. When I look at my Mum who smoked like a chimney, yes she had a smokers cough but hardly any other problems with her chest and Im sure some of that came from rheumatoid arthritis. She like alot of people her age was a tough cookie and had good basic food in her years, that included real butter, lard and all the things that are supposed to be bad for you. So perhaps its a mixture of genes and lifesfyle.
There are so many variables involved in what we experience that it is largely impossible to say that we are the authors of our own misfortune.
Socio economic grouping is not necessarily a protective factor. It may bring wealth and privilege, but going to prep school at 8 and having cold/ distant parents or being sexually abused does not a happy person make.
I have some dodgy genes and have usually made wise choices, but if reincarnation theory is correct, I actually chose this life and all the problems I have ever faced.
Yes it's a load of crud that everything is someone's fault as things happen and most of the time no ones to blame.
No that's a load of crap about supposedly bringing illness in yourself!
Fact is that don't discriminate on what you do or don't do as they are things that happen to you that are beyond anyone's control if that explains things.
What fascinating replies it all goes back to the nature/ nurture argument for want of a better word.
I look at my parents and my siblings, we were all adopted as babies from different sets of biological parents.
My parents were very anti smoking, we all smoked when younger, we have all turned out very different.
My younger siblings were awful until they were well into their thirties, my older sibling seemed to do everything right and I was somewhere in the middle.
Myself and younger siblings went to boarding school, due in part to my fathers job so it’s not as tho we had a deprived childhood. We know we were special as we were chosen and very much loved and cherished.
Health wise my older sibling and I have had and continue to have serious health problems and the younger ones haven’t, not as tho we can look at genes!
Sometimes these things are a mystery with no answer.
I had a chequered childhood. Made me anxious. I smoked heavily aged 15 to 26. Developed asthma at age 32 then bronchiectasis at 50 . Had to give up work.
Sometimes life throws crap and it's hard to see the silver lining but my illness has given me many things; the ability to suck every bit of joy out of life, appreciate and build on all that I can do, give me deep empathy for those who suffer illness, childhood issues and any challenges that seem insurmountable. Its taught me to make the best of things, to focus on the positives and to live in the present. These are all gifts, the proverbial silver lining .
I have an autoimmune disease, a genetic disease that causes COPD and chronic frequent migraines. Nothing I have done in my life has caused these things. So my basic answer is no! But I think that as a society we often prioritise things that don't do our health any good. The tobacco industry prioritised (and still do) profit long after it was common knowledge within the industry that smoking is dangerous. We (governments, industry, the world economy) puts profit over health when we refuse to give up polluting industries, cars. And then there's the inequality between those who benefit from healthy wealthy lifestyles with all mod cons and those who go to work in dangerous factories with dangerous substances and terrible working conditions to make those mod cons because they have to feed themselves and their children. But I think also that life is about risk. Everyone takes risk. We cross roads, get in cars, climb stairs, eat sugar, sit in the sun, walk up mountains, use power tools, or knives, reach things from top shelves, go running.... all of which can and do lead to accidents and long term illnesses. But should we stop doing them? Of course not. Life is dangerous, but we still want to live it. Is it sensible to smoke? No. But not is it sensible to rock climb, or sail across the Atlantic single handed, or go caving. I'm not advocating smoking (definitely not) but asking if we get what we deserve (while I realise is not you being judgemental ) is suggesting we should never take risks. And what would life be without risk?
Reminds me of a Rowan Atkinson sketch in "The Secret Policeman's Ball" (an Amnesty International charity revue). Setting homework for some imaginary students, it goes something like this:"Cleopatra had the body of a roll-top desk and the mind of a duck - discuss!"
I had TB throughout my teens (a long time ago!) Couldn’t take streptomycin so ended up with several surgeries. Eventually thought I’d beaten the Plague, got out and on with my life, had a career, raised a family. Never smoked, fish + veg diet, and my big hobby was Hill walking at home and abroad (Alps, Pyrenees, etc) A bit slower than others, but I did it!
Then started to get repeated severe chest infections, lots of associated problems, was finally told Bronchiectasis, almost certainly as result of TB - biting me on the bum after nearly 60 years. ☹️
Not sure what the moral of this story is- except that a lot of life is pretty much the luck of the draw!
Yes, you’d be daft to start smoking nowadays, in the light of all the evidence, and lots of other problems can be avoided if you’re sensible - but much of it just lands on you regardless! That’s life, just get on and enjoy it as much as you can?!
Obviously some things are self determined and others are not. Copd and lung disease is primarily from smoking....Thats is the "fault" of the smoker. Other things like cystic fybrosis, not so much.
Well I have COPD - Angina - Leaking heart Valve, AF and history of VT and SVT - Along with Scaring on lung CKD stage 3 . Not to mention OA Cervical Disc degeneration. Yes all my fault..
My point being I do not need post like yours telling me I have what I deserve, I stopped smoking approx 30 years ago an have as healthy eating habits as anyone..
With respect I find your post pointless or even pathetic.. Lot of what I have is inherited.
I have to say, again, that this is not what I wrote in my opening thread. If, as you finish with, your lot is inherited, than I refer you back to my genetic determinism comments. I have also clearly stated that determinism is not about blame or shame. If you took my post to imply that it was then I can only apologise for any offence given. It was certainly unintended.
I am not offended. I run a sports forum and a political page so hardy a shrinking violet. I do however think you posted what you posted could have bothered some, your reference to benefits and more so to drink and healthy lifestyle. To go further you did not ask questions per se - You made statements. That along with the title in Capitals , I wonder the need for the directness in capitals. "YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE." - That to some is water of a ducks back, to others maybe not in particular people who had ailments long before they was old enough to drink, smoke and claim benefits.. Like I said I myself am not offended but no way would I have posted what you posted... For the reasons given....
I now realise that my use of block capitals in my strap line is a form of shouting. I used them because I thought that I was expected to in the box stating my theme. mea culpa
Does not matter anyway, I was just expressing my opinion of your post. We are all ejusdem generis on this forum and I suppose I was surprised by your post.
What an excellent thread, it made me burn my oven-ready chips! 😕
I see life as being like a game of cards. You are dealt a hand, good or bad, and how you play it depends entirely on you. I've seen plenty of people who have been dealt good hands making a complete mess of their lives and others with bad hands making good. Whatever adverse factors affect you along the way need dealing with, whose fault they are is immaterial.
Hi Cateran that's an interesting post you have put up.
As for me I have late onset asthma which according to asthma UK the cause is unknown.I was diagnosed with mild asthma my mid 30's. Four years ago it got much worse. I am now on a high dose combination steroid inhaler. Monkelaust for my allergic part of my asthma (allergy to dust mites) and steroid nasal spray for post nasal drip.
The answer to your questions is I didn't bring it on myself. The cause is unknown in my case.
Sometimes Cateran i think you just like playing with words and it seems the longer and more eloquent the better.Of course my opinion is grounded in the fact that i have had a limited education and i am not sure if i admire you for your cleverness or it just annoys me but that is nothing to do with your query and just a personal observation.
You put forward valuable observations though i imagine especially with regard to long term and chronic illnesses some on here may take offence even if it was not intended.
Best wishes though Ski's and an equally uneducated Scruff's
There is eloquence in your statement skischool and I admit to being somewhat ashamed if my style and vocabulary have seemed to be fanciful and irritating. Please forgive me.
I think you may be getting a very unfair bad wrap lovely. I appreciate, as do many others that you are not intending to be offensive or judgemental at all. Your title is not a statement but an invitation to discuss. I appeciate and admire too all you do to further our cause, along with JC. I feel I have known you long enough Terry to know you are a deep thinker, not only on the health conditions but on the health systems and the paternalism we encounter and anything you do or say is so well intentioned.
This is a wonderful endorsement from you cofdrop and deeply appreciated, I was feeling somewhat on the defensive and remorseful. As always, you know just how to buck me up.
I believe it is the thought that smoking is something only "bad" people do is the stigma that keeps lung, all lung diseases uncured. The majority of people diagnosed now have never, smoked anything, nor been around second hand smoke, nor worked in toxic fumes or enviroment.
BLIMEY - THIS IS GETTING DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO THAT SUBJECT, - IF YOU REMEMBER, = SOME FOOTBALL " CHIEF " A FEW YEARS AGO , SAYING THAT PHYSICAL ILLNESSES , SUCH AS BEING BORN BLIND , CRIPPLED ETC ETC , ARE = " A PUNISH FROM GOD FOR SINS COMMITED IN A PREVIOUS LIFE " …. THIS CAUSED AN ABSOLUTE OUTRAGE IN THE NATION , TO HOSPITALS , CHARITIES HELPING THE BLIND AND DISABLED ETC , = - NEEDLESS TO SAY , THIS VILE CREATURE , WHO EVIDENTLY THOUGHT HE HAD A HOT LINE TO THE ALMIGHTY - WAS SACKED IMMEDIATELY - I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION , BUT HIS DISGUSTING GENERALISATION WAS MONSTROUS IN THE EXTREME. HOWEVER , I DO BELIEVE , EVEN AS A CHRISTIAN , IN KARMA …, MAYBE THE ALMIGHTY ONE DAY , IN HIS OWN TIME , MAY WELL PUT HIM RIGHT ON THIS POINT , AND NEVER AGAIN , DARE TO " SPEAK " IN HIS PLACE ...
I can’t imagine how you can equate David Ikes rantings and beliefs to Terry’s post. The strap line is not his belief and he goes on to ask ‘is this a fair view of chronic illness and our lifestyle’. He also asks ‘are we losers through no fault of our own.’ He is not making a statement but simply opening up a discussion for others comments.
If these were Terry’s personal views then why would he work as hard as he does in a voluntary capacity to further the cause of people with lung conditions, and furthermore why would he he, along with Sohara, myself and 8 others bother to make a patient statement for a respiratory Professor and 2 other respiratory consultants to take to the FDA in Washington regarding the use of inhled Cipro. He is too much of a gentleman to tell you this but I’m no lady.
After I was critical of your post - I decided to read your post again last evening and again today.
I still believe your post although put for discussion is pointless and here is why.
Lung disease like COPD could have multiple causes. I am having a CT Scan on Wednesday for a shadow on the apex of my Left Lung. I have as mentioned before got COPD an umbrella for multiple conditions, in my case Emphysema. As a young man I was not and bet many on this forum was aware of risks from smoking. That is important as it annuls the point of all smokers being self indulgent as that implies informed. The drinking aspect to Lung Disease is IMO spurious when talking about cause of lung disease,
Back to my CT Scan. My consultant was more open minded and not concerned just with smoking. (While I ended more than 20 years ago) - No he asked had I been exposed to 'Asbestos' which I had - Older people who remember coal fires will remember causing a draft to get fire going with an Asbestos sheet. In my case as a young man I was exposes to coal dust as I worked shoveling coal for years.. Oh and I was exposed to Silicon working in a foundry.
Last but not least over 50% of my small family died of lung disease - Some smoked but then again, some did not - meaning some died never smoking so there is an 'inheritance' factor - hardly "Self indulgent" - Therefore in that part of you argument, yeas smoking is a factor but not the only factor and drink is spurious when talking lung disease.
Lastly you talk of benefits helping to feed habits. Lots of people on this forum are not young unless they are unlucky and benefits in the 1960/70s not easy to get and skimpy.
To conclude people with lung disease really are either unlucky or smoked before all the info we now have to give us an informed choice was available.. I am sure most of us are not as you offer for argument "reaping our just deserts. Wastrels with too much spare income or social credit payments. The welfare state throws us a life-line of self-indulgence."
So after the most careful consideration of your discussion post - your questions did not - take in the generation factor at all. That is important.
Finally IMO you have picked the wrong diseases and generations to try and pigeonhole as we all have our own history and circumstance.
I’m too knacked to repeat stuff tonight, so I would ask if you please read the post in reply to vittorio. I for one don’t believe this post put up for discussion is pointless - people’s views are interesting, unless they become personal.
I have read your post to Vittorio and to be honest I am not convinced. Reason I can't for the life of me see how (Terry) as your name him could "further the cause of people with lung conditions" I really can't.
Forget the technical arguments for and against his posts he asks two questions so would agree with and some could get upset.
1) Smoking. Many people have got COPD and Lung Cancer ect caused by smoking and that is more disturbing they know their own mistakes are to blame .. I can imagine wringing of hands and regret and guilt and upset caused by reading that question and knowing the answer,
2) Benefits. Some people are so ill they need benefits to enable them to be mobile and mobility needs to be paid for as do care aids.
His comments and question are more suited to a political forum than a health forum IMO.. As my posts indicate I was not offended by his post at all, I can imagine a cerai group of people that could be. "pigeonholed" a group of people. That is my sincere opinion and my post was polite and I typed what i though "Irrelevant " post by Cateran for the reasons given..
Anyway best wishes and hope I have explained why although I was not offended thought not suitable reading for people who may have smoked and caused their own serious problems.. Ernest
Thank you for your reply Ern. Your post was indeed polite. I think we could go round in circles and so I feel we should agree to disagree, as we are all freinds on here and all living with lung disease of one kind or another, including our friend Terry.
I agree cofdrop-UK. - We have said we have said and don't agree. I agree we all have differing opinions and that is good, I also wish all with these nasty chest complaints well and that includes Cateran.. Best wished Ern,
This type of callous response is always revealingly selective. I note that those who talk judgmentally about "lifestyles" never seem to blame drivers injured in accidents for their "lifestyle choice" of driving cars, or those killed in plane crashes for their "lifestyle choices" etc. etc. The belief that illnesses are punishments is just another reminder of the fundamental cruelty and stupidity of religious beliefs that reject science and persist in regarding illnesses as forms of retribution.
Religious beliefs or lack thereof must be respected. Let's be mindful that this post was meant for discussion only and Cateran wasn't promoting or discounting this view either way. I respectfully ask Simonpete to be mindful of this. I think Cateran has been misunderstood. And his comment rather harsh to say the least. And for some reason I can't tag the gentleman.
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Might work for you though. 
It is what it is and we get on don't we.
