Thank you all SO MUCH! I can't express how helpful everyone has been on here, I'm only 19 and don't have a lot of knowledge about workplace legalities or just anything to do with this kind of situation, and everyone's help on here has just been outstanding. So thank you all so much. They said last week that my mum would have to wait until the next week (today/Monday 18th) to hear back. So we've been on our toes dreading it. My mum basically sent them everything she could, everything you guys provided that was in writing from a source, the disability by association stuff especially (I know that one works after pointing out discrimination at my college out after they threatened to kick me off of my course because of my health), we had my aunt who is a primary school teacher sharing their guidance on sending people back with vulnerable family, we basically just tried anything and everything. My mum's manager I believe spoke to HR about it all though, and we got a call today from her manager saying that it turns out that the universities overarching policy is that anyone with ANY kind of vulnerability is not be going back, whether it's minor asthma, by association or what. So she won't be going in and will be continuing to work from home for the foreseeable future until guidance changes from the government etc. So my mama won't be putting me at risk! I can't express how heart warming all of your help, advice and support has been, thank you so much for helping us. Look after yourself my fellow asthmatics and lovely humans. <3
Hello! So, im in the extremely clinically vulnerable group, severe Eosinophilic asthma, on all of the government registers, have been receiving calls every other day to check in. My asthma is about as bad as it comes. My mum, who I live with alongside my dad and boyfriend share a two bedroom, semi detached very VERY small house. To get to my kitchen I have to go through the living room, the shielding advice is near impossible, so on the advice of one of the people who has been checking up on me from my local county council team, we haven't been distancing between each other but we have ALL been shielding essentially instead, nobody leaves the house, were all staying in to protect me. My mum is now being asked to go back into work, despite it being a job that's not considered essential at all and her going to work putting us all at risk (I should also mention my dad is badly asthmatic, he didn't receive a vulnerable letter but is on a fair amount of medication). To summarise, I wondered if anyone is in a similar situation and could provide help, below I'll give full details of everything so you have the full picture.
Since this all kicked off and places started closing, my mum was sent home from work to work from home (Her job is user /customer services at a university library, it's a mix of answering questions and emails- which she has been doing from home because they decided not to furlough her. But is predominantly helping students in the building, students that are not in). The university has explicitly stated that they are not re-opening, however the library is deciding to operate on skeleton staff of about ten people including my mum, this is to answer emails and to perform book collection services for students with minimal contact, but there will still be shared facilities like bathrooms and entrances and of the building between staff members if they have to collect books for students. When this all first started to get bad, every staff member filled in forms about their personal circumstances: my mum listed me as extremely asthmatic, however she doesn't have her own health problems. We thought they might reduce staff, however covid-19 got a lot worse and the library was immidiately shut within a few days of that.
They didn't furlough any staff, and said they could do work from home. This is what my mum's been doing. However she got a call last week, I believe a few days before Boris' announcement about returning to work etc, and her line manager told her that she would be coming into work three days a week, starting Monday the 11th, she called back the next day and told him that she was uncomfortable with it and needed to get advice after my nana who is a district nurse was horrified and demanded my mum to say something. Her manager told her she didn't have to come in this week, however would be expected to go in the week after. They are not sending back most of their staff: including people with a diagnosis of asthma on their record, but that are not clinically vulnerable, that haven't had a letter, and the member of staff who is asthmatic even said 'i haven't had a ventolin in two years' and he is on no preventative inhalers or medication and he has said by all accounts he is fine and has nothing wrong with him. But they expect my mum to still be coming in despite me being classed in the most vulnerable group to covid-19.
I had a call on Monday from a member of my county council checking in, she was horrified and told me that my mum shouldn't be going back but unfortunately the legal/government advice isn't clear therefore advised we contacted ACAS for legal advice, they again had the same perspective but can't offer anything other than other services to help. My mum is basically being told by her manager that it's fine because they've set up extra measures to ensure safety. Again, this DOES NOT INCLUDE things like individual facilities: they have to share bathrooms, entrances, and the building if they have to get books.
My mum's work have said that we need something from someone, either a lawyer, doctor or someone in writing that says she shouldn't be going in. But unfortunately we can't seem to get anything from my doctors, and cannot get legal advice in writing that's free and we are not in a position to pay for legal services at all. My mum has spent the day in tears because she's scared she'll make me sick. She doesn't have anywhere to live temporarily and even if she did, we'd be left with no car in an emergency if I had to go to the hospital or even my doctor's.
Please please please can someone help me out at the minute, I'm scared, to be completely honest the only other option I have is begging someone to let me go and live with them that isn't working...but I don't even know anyone in that position.
Thanks, and if you have any questions or want extra information I am happy to give it to you, I've probably missed things out because honestly I'm so stressed. But yeah. Thank you.
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Thank you. I've given him a message (I messaged when it all kicked off on the advice of a friend) however I still haven't had a reply about a week later so I'm not hopeful of even getting a response.
is she in a union? the unions sometimes provide free legal advice.
otherwise i would be calling the asthma helpline from this website, the citizens advice bureau. mum would be asking her work what control measures they have in place and the risk of contracting covid after those measures are introduced.
is your mum so stressed about it all that she needs to see the doctor and see if she's so stressed she should be signed off?
if i were shielding in a house with others i would just permanently live in my bedroom by myself. my gf would sleep in the living room on a camp bed or go live with a relative / friend.
when my mum comes home she would immediately undress (preferably in the garage but otherwise as soon as she steps through the door), she puts her clothes in the wash immediately with some clothes disinfectant then goes straight in the shower.
there may be need of some organisation so she can do all that privately.
when mums out at work, my dad or gf would disinfect door handles and the toilet etc so there's less risk when i go to the loo, kitchen or shower. anything my mum touches between returning to work and showering would need to be immediately cleaned too.
i would wipe down anything that comes through that bedroom door, wash my sheets and clothes separately.
while at work mum should keep to herself, never touch her face, hand gel and wash hands frequently and wear a mask.
i would cook my own meals, own supply of food and drink so i wouldn't be sharing milk or meals etc. lots of hand washing.
the government didn't advise against those living with shielders to stay at home as well when covid was at its peak. so i would be surprised if they do so now when they're telling people to go back to work.
ive seen a doctor living in a tent in their garage because they didn't want to infect their family. you may have to live together but seperate until you're no longer shielding.
Were having a word with occupational health about why it's only my mum and a few others being asked back and not those that don't have health problems etc, there's about 20 other members of staff they could be asking to have back in the skeleton staff, all of whom have no health problems and none of which live with vulnerable people. Our objection is purely just how they've clearly tactically picked people (because my mum bless her is very compliant etc) and how even though we've raised a concern they're effectively ignoring it. And believe me, we would follow the sections in distancing if we could, but to explain my house, we essentially live in the smallest place imaginable. There's not room for it at all. We don't have a garage, we don't have any spare rooms. Our house is a front door that opens straight into the stair case, to the right of the staircase is the entrance to living room which you have to go through to get to the kitchen, upstairs is again a landing that has room for about two people to stand on, and only just, then doors for the bathroom, my bedroom, my parents bedroom and the bathroom. Our house doesnt allow for it at all. Also not to mention that due to my asthma I am on disability benefits that don't leave me with a lot of money, my dad also can't work for health reasons, and we essentially have an extremely low income which means we couldn't afford lots of antibacterial products even if we could get ahold of them. My boyfriend is also here predominantly for his health and my mental health, his family are key workers so he doesn't want to live with them and hasn't since this has started, and my mental health is less than ideal. I have extreme problems with anxiety and depression and essentially locking myself in my bedroom would unfortunately be a death sentence for someone like me, I don't say that lightly either, a few years ago in my last GCSE years I dropped out, I didn't leave the house for almost a year, I spoke to nobody and it almost killed me. Ive already been told its dangerous for me to be completely isolated and unfortunately that's the case for not just me but a lot of others. Unfortunately the government and advised measures for people shielding are essentially only any good if you're in a good position financially and mentally, two things myself and my family don't have the luxury of which makes this situation additionally hard and unfortunately nobody takes into account. Thank you for the advice, were still seeking help on this all although again the problem remains that nothing is in explicit writing about what to do. The only thing we have is that if someone is a carer, that they cannot return to work, essentially my mum is my carer but it's not registered or anything so it doesn't apply to us.
You’re between a rock & a hard place, sorry to say I can’t see any solution. Official advice has always been there’s no need for those who live with the shielded to shield, & I don’t think your mum has any employment rights covering this situation. Only thing to do is talk to managers further & try to limit her exposure at work as much as possible, but it won’t be risk free. Or give up her job. What about your dad & boyfriend, are they exposed?
Alternatively you’ll have to follow the advice on p.2 of the shielding letter ie stay in own room, bathroom to be cleaned after each use etc etc. It’s grim. Sorry amelia.
Thank you, my boyfriend works at a students union so has been fortunately furloughed since this all kicked off. My dad doesn't work due to his health. So neither of them are exposed. But my dad would be if my mum was working because of sharing a bedroom. And again as I've pointed out to someone else, unfortunately the advice regarding staying in my room etc is near impossible and mentally would ruin me. This is the problem with all of the government advice, it's great if you live in a big house and have the money to ensure safety. But we don't...we live in an absolutely tiny house, on a low income, and none of the things the letter wants us to do are possible at all. It's ridiculous, and unfortunately nobody knows what to do or how to help right now. They've said if we can get it in writing from a doctor or a lawyer that they advise against her returning to work, then that's fine. But when that is something impossible to obtain they may as well have not bothered...
One of the (very few) understandable things that Boris has said since the ‘update’ is “if you can work from home, work from home. Only go in if you can’t work from home” - if 90% of what she’s going to expected to do she can do from home and the 10% isn’t urgent then that may be able to help when she speaks to them...
Have you tried speaking to your specialist team and see if they can do something? Even if it’s saying she’s your carer so needs to be shielding to protect you? Or maybe she can ask for housing paid for her by work as they are the ones putting you at risk? Or if she’s really not happy, tell them to furlong her... it’s a 20% dock in pay but it protects you (and should demonstrate she’s serious). (Or get GP to write her a docs note for stress cause returning to work IS going to cause her stress rn)
This is exactly what we said! Her manager is now saying that they can't really work from home though so they have to go in? Which as we said is ridiculous, because that means that they should've all been furloughed for the last month if they can't do work from home. And again, the work CLEARLY isn't urgent and it's evident that they're essentially using my mum and a few others to trial how it'll all work, because they're asking for a tiny number of staff back, including keeping a good amount of staff working from home that have no health problems. So why my mum cannot stay working from home or be furloughed I don't know. She actually asked today not long after I made the post if she could be furloughed, and they said no because if they furlough her that they have to furlough everyone? (Which after some quick googling and looking on Citizens advice etc, is not true, that can furlough select members of staff) . I spoke to my specialist team, they said unfortunately because I'm their patient, all they can do is things for me. They can't do anything in writing for my mum. And unfortunately all of their guidance on shielding doesn't give any specifics or even any kind of remote specifics, it's just the broad overarching guidlines that we already know about. His advice was occupational health which is who my mum is going to phone tomorrow. But she's also going to phone my doctors surgery and see if they'll write her anything. Unfortunately the general consensus from my respiratory team specialist seems to be that nobody can give anything in writing thats classed as an opinion, and this is classed as an opinion, so my respiratory team nurse basically said that unfortunately the only option is begging them to not make her go in. So yeah they've refused to furlough her, and are essentially making it impossible by saying it has to be in writing, something which nobody can provide at the minute. The only other option I'm looking into is if I can get her registered as a carer or something for me, because whilst for the most part I can function on my own, I can't get around by myself (I can't even walk properly because I have osteopenia and it hurts too much so I rely on her driving), I rely on her to get to my doctor's and regular asthma clinic appointments. If she was gone I would genuinely be scared about a lot of things.
If she has been working from home for 8 weeks without issue the employer can't argue that its not practical to work from home.
It is very clear ONLY those that CANT work from home should return to work.
If she has not been furlough Ed and been working from home for 8 weeks then Employer should not be asking her or any of her colleagues who have been working from home to return to work is not acceptable as government say if can work from home should do so and have been doing so for 8 weeks!!!
Your Shielding is evidence for you that your mum can use. As said your dad could ask surgery to do a letter to your employer.
If you and dad same surgery explain mum's employer trying to force her to return to work when she's been working from home and whole family shielding.
Also the people calling you for your check up are council they were disgusted. Ask them if there is a dept in council that can help your mum.
Are they trying for constructive dismissal by their actions if mum doesn't go in because they are on shaky ground and would be tribunal
It sounds like they are arguing that now they are re-opening the extra services, the job can no longer be done from home. Technically, you can only be furloughed if there is no work to do, so if work ask you to go in then you're not entitled to furlough.
It's a real shame that her mum was chosen over people with lower risk households. I'd be in bits if it was me.
Amelia described a few tasks several staff would do, such as book returns which need to be done in person.
Plenty of staff will still be working in the uni, students leaving may need to return books, etc.
If the univeristy was truly closed then all staff would be furloughed.
I can't see any course of action for arguing there is no work to be done (that is the employer's decision), only that there is a reason relating to her mum for which she shouldn't have been picked.
The university can likely say that they picked at random, except for employees with health conditons. Or that they priortised people who could drive to work, to keep people safe from public transport. Anything really.
Sounds a good idea to contact the GP and ask if he could write a letter explaining your health situation and that you live in the same house. She could use this to discuss with line manager and with Occupational Health. Even if there is no legal entitlement in the circumstances there is a moral one especially if she is willing and able to do some of the work from home. Be persistent.
My son works for a university and they were slow to respond when he developed an allergy to dust mite but they did eventually make reasonable adustments after he kept making his case with support from doctors etc.
You’ve said to Definitelynotjeff above you think your mum has been “tactically picked on” when there are others who could work without risk. Try phoning ACAS for advice on whether this constitutes victimisation acas.org.uk/contact
But other than that, in law her employers have no duty of care to you and sad to say don’t have to take any account of your mental health or unsatisfactory housing etc when it comes to making business decisions. All that is irrelevant to them. I don’t mean to sound brutal, these are simply the facts. I think the “tactically picked on” angle is worth pursuing tho, as is Definitelynotjeff’s idea about your mum taking stress-related sick leave (for as long as possible!)
Thank you! Don't worry haha, I'm very aware of the brutal reality of it all, and we're all very aware that at some point my mum will be returning to work and that at some point I'll probably be put at risk. It's just at the minute it seems so very specifically done and unnecessary too! I mean it's so obvious that they're doing it to basically guinea pig the staff on how it'll all work, and that my mum doesn't need to be in. Like I said before, unfortunately my mum (bless her) is very sweet and easy going, she's the type that wouldn't usually bat an eyelid, and note that the people who they're not asking back that don't have health problems, are indeed the ones who are difficult. She's going to talk to a few people tomorrow and try and find out from her manager what the criteria was for sending her back and not other people who are in better and healthier situations, because that'll probably show a lot. But yeah unfortunately thats the case with this kind of thing, as awful as it is, nobody likes to really care about an individuals circumstances.
Hi, I fully understand you and your families concerns, it must be really distressing. I've had problems with health concerns at work so can offer a little bit of advice. As others have said, try calling Acas and tell them your concerns. When you call it may take a long time to get through, but it's worth persisting. I'm not in a union so had to take that approach. Second, put your concerns in writing to the university, recorded post or/and email receipted if you can. Companies will have to take this very seriously as things in writing can be used in court if it comes to discrimination. Try speaking to the citizens advice bureau, they will tell you your rights. Finally, if you have buildings or contents insurance, check to see if you have free legal family protection included. If so they usually support you with a free legal advice phone number where you can talk to lawyers. Hope you get some help and advice & take care.
Not sure if this helps but looking through the government guidance I found this for teachers which I presume would be the same for other people in education
“If a staff member lives in a household with someone who is extremely clinically vulnerable, as set out in the guidance on shielding and protecting people defined on medical grounds as extremely vulnerable, it is advised they only attend work if stringent social distancing can be adhered to. If stringent social distancing cannot be adhered to, we do not expect those individuals to attend. They should be supported to work at home.”
The .gov.uk website has a lot of documentation on getting back to work. I haven’t looked at the other documents but I assume the principles will be the same.
So sorry to read about your situation. I just cannot understand how they are making your mum do this. I think there is a total lack of understanding about severe asthma. Could your council help you out at all? As they have been in regular contact and understand the situation it might help? Failing that I would contact my MP and ask them to intervene. It's for a short period after all, why take the risks. Good luck, hope you get some help. It must be very stressful. Take care.
The government has been clear on this and said if you can work from home you should continue to work from home so employer is actually breaking government rules by asking her to go back to work as it is clear from what you have said your mum can work from home.
It is only those that CANT work from home that should be returning to work!!!
Please tell her to contact the HR and advise them they are breaking the government rules by asking your mum to come in.
Another thing, are you all patients at the same surgery if so your Dad could explain to surgery what has happened and ask Surgery to do a letter to confirm his status and you get a photocopy of your shielding letter to send as evidence for her.
Speak to a union at work.
Alternatively if they don't listen use grievance procedures.
So from a people management and Gov UK website the following.
YOU SHOULD ONLY HO INTO WORK IF YOU CAN'T WORK FROM HOME.
Your mum can and has been working from home and employer is actually breaking law by asking her to go to work when she can work from home.
We are only in step 1
If you force your employees to go into work, (against government rules that say those that can work from home should work from home) or medical advice and there is a genuine health and safety risk from being required to attend work, this could amount to a breach of your duty of care to those employees.
This may constitute a breach of the implied term of mutual trust and confidence, resulting in claims for constructive unfair dismissal and/or disability discrimination (if you employ ‘vulnerable persons’). (Note there is discrimination by association (in law) which means you are discriminated against because of those you associate with who has a protected characteristic).
It is still very important that people stay home unless necessary to go out for specific reasons set out in law. These include:
- for work, where you CANNOT work from home
- going to shops that are permitted to be open – to get things like food and medicine, and to collect goods ordered online or on the phone
- to exercise or spend time outdoors for recreation
- any medical need, to donate blood, avoid injury or illness, escape risk of harm, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person
6. Going to work
You should travel to work, including to provide voluntary or charitable services, where you CANNOT work from home and your workplace is open.
8. Clinically vulnerable people
If you have any of the following health conditions, you are clinically vulnerable, meaning you are at higher risk of severe illness from coronavirus. You are advised to stay at home as much as possible and, if you do go out, take particular care to minimise contact with others outside your household.
Clinically vulnerable people are those who are:
aged 70 or older (regardless of medical conditions)
under 70 with an underlying health condition listed below (that is, anyone instructed to get a flu jab each year on medical grounds):
chronic (long-term) mild to moderate respiratory diseases, such as asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), emphysema or bronchitis (YOUR DAD)
chronic heart disease, such as heart failure
chronic kidney disease
chronic liver disease, such as hepatitis
chronic neurological conditions, such as Parkinson’s disease, motor neurone disease, multiple sclerosis (MS), or cerebral palsy
diabetes
a weakened immune system as the result of certain conditions, treatments like chemotherapy, or medicines such as steroid tablets
being seriously overweight (a body mass index (BMI) of 40 or above)
pregnant women
As above, there is a further category of people with serious underlying health conditions who are clinically extremely vulnerable, meaning they are at very high risk of severe illness from coronavirus. "(YOU)
You, your family and carers should be aware of the guidance on shielding which provides information on how to protect yourself still further should you wish to.
The Equality Act 2010 may apply here if the employer should consider disability by association. That the employer's decision process in selecting staff to attend work ignored information regarding disabled daughter living in the same home and the Covid-19 risks the disabled/shielding person would be exposed to as a result of the selection process may be considered discrimination. More info can be found here:
This is really helpful thank you! My mum got in contact with them again, she said she was going to talk to occupational health and her manager said that he would help out in talking to HR and the managers higher than him. My mum provided the thing about discrimination by association and the advice from schools about shielding and has raised her concern however she's still collating as much evidence as possible to help her case. We're waiting to hear back from her manager with the outcome of it, and depending on what he says we'll see where we go from there if it's not done. It's unfortunate because my mum gets along very well with her manager and the staff at work but yeah, were all currently hoping that they come back and tell her that they've looked it over and it's okay...but who knows at this point.
Could be worth talking to the university chaplain - they're there for staff as well as students, and may have contacts among the senior staff, or be able to talk to HR for your mother. At the very least they should be able to offer her some support.
I hope something can be sorted for your mum as it sounds like a worry for you all.
My partner has continued to work throughout the pandemic, and we just take extreme precautions on her return home. She changes at the door, showers immediately, and we wipe down anything she has touched. Unfortunately we live in a small flat so social distancing hasn't been a thing - it would be cruel for one of us (likely her) to have to sleep on the sofa as it isn't very comfortable. It has been worked for us.
I think you said you had been in touch with ACAS? Perhaps the student union can help? Definitely if she is in a union or you are get in touch with them as they may be better to advise.
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