Mucus (Recent Info)

[Matman]

Asthma and COPD have quite a lot in common and many Asthmatics have cross-over (partly Asthmatic and partly COPD). Recent Study has revealed that in a whopping 50% of COPD flare-up cases, the Mucus tested positive for bacteria.

It's already established that - the more mucus in the airways - the better the opportunity for bacteria to breed.

(My Comment: If high incidence of Airway Bacteria during Mucus Generating Flare-ups is true for Asthma as well as COPD, could it imply greater relevance for antibiotic treatment than was previous considered relevant? i.e. It has been said, up to now, that most airway infections originate from viruses, which are generally unresponsive to antibiotics, which were therefore not ‘always’ prescribed to deal with Flare Ups).

As usual, thanks in advance for any Comments / thoughts (in case I don't manage to respond to them).

[sagittar]

That's interesting....I'm researched and read that too.....One of my finding is this story. asthmastory.com/ Where he pretty much got rid of his asthma from getting rid of the bacteria. Let me know what you think? You might have something there...I notice that most that have asthma and COPD person are always prescribed antibiotics or frequently getting a respiratory infections. The focus is " HOW TO KEEP OUR LUNGS HEALTHY FROM BUGS" and

another alternative from Antibiotics.....Band Stuff.

Like to hear some feedbacks and findings.

[Matman in reply to sagittar]

Hi Sagittar (appreciate your comment plus links). It does seem to be the case that, increasingly, a whole variety of 'Conditions' are being freshly attributed to Bacteria, Viruses or other Microbes that were previously unidentified, present in undetectable numbers, or simply considered neither the culprit nor 'major' contributor. I'm very keen to look into this notion further as have only explored it a 'bit'. Previous treatments I've had include antibiotics and have left me 'symptom free' (or much improved) - often for weeks. What I don't know is if many 'decent sized' double blind single or metadata studies have been undertaken in the last few years, as far as 'Extended' Courses of Antibiotics & Asthma / COPD are concerned (including studies focusing on lengthy, 'prophylactic duration' courses of antibiotics). I'm sure Users of this Site would be very keen to read a Brief Summary of what specific treatment you feel helped you most, and what (if any) Specific Antibiotics you've tried, what Strength, how long for - and with what result. Plus what - if any - additional Medications or Personal Regimes you underwent 'simultaneously' (as sometimes we can be inclined to think that one treatment helped us most, whereas in fact it was something else entirely, like giving up smoking, reducing Stress, leaving a job where we were exposed to toxic fumes or improving our diet etc, that was the main contributor. I've checked out your links and purchased the 2014 Kindle Version of the Book by David Hahn (as it's relatively recent and seems to have been well received). READERS BEWARE THE ASKING PRICE OF THE PAPER EDITION IS 'HUGE' BUT THE KINDLE VERSION IS UNDER £4. The implication that 'Pharma & Medical Services' profits are in 'the expensive' new drugs for those who make and promote them (and that ignoring cheap, generic antibiotics might therefore be profitable to the Health Industry) although ringing of 'conspiracy theory' is quite an intriguing one, worthy of serious reflection. Best Wishes Matman

[sagittar in reply to Matman]

Thanks Matman for your comment and interest in Dr. Hahn's findings to further research it. It might be a good idea to get tested for chlamydia pneumoniae bacteria to be certain its not in your lungs. It wouldn't hurt....I know it's a blood test, I think. I read that it's very hard to get rid off. Please keep me posted after you read the kindle version. I believe his protocol is 12 weeks or longer on Zithromax. You can message me if you like.

Good reading.

Sagittar

[Matman in reply to sagittar]

Cheers Sagittar

[Yatzy]

Yes, I’m so glad my GP advised no steroids without antibiotics, and start both at least sign of trouble. He said best way to avoid more scarring of lungs, which is worse than side effects from either antib’s or steroids. I also read a book Coping with Prednisone and that highlighted need for antib’s in tandem. Steroids lower your resistance to bacteria and you’ve got a double whammy going on. Thanks for the info...

[Matman]

Good point about Med Risks v Lung Scarring Risks. Have taken that onboard. Not sure if I’d re-edited my response to Sagittar’s Response (above) before your Comment arrived, but there may be something in it you might find useful.

[Minushabens]

I think we have to be careful to remember that there is no standard asthma type here, so while ABs may play a key role for some, they won’t for others. Also, keep in mind the generic nature of a COPD diagnosis. I was given one, which ultimately morphed into something far more specific. It’s fairly clear in my mind that the mucus in my lungs is far more cause than consequence of the symptoms I have. Having said that, the damage in my lungs (evidenced on CT-scans) is undoubtedly a consequence in itself of atopic asthma which I’ve had for around 50 years (since I was a toddler).

So we have a complex interplay of conditions & shouldn’t go down any road that says this or that is correct.

As an aside, I’m always inherently wary of playing off Big Pharma versus ‘alternative’ or ‘holistic’ as in truth both are multi-billion pound/dollar industries with clear, & (on both sides) often dishonest claims.

In terms of the peer reviewed research, has anyone scanned Cochrane? I haven’t but could try when time permits, & better scientific brains than mine might help interpret it.

[Matman in reply to Minushabens]

Thanks for your ‘take’ on this topic. Appreciated. (Have added further response in respect of mmmp4cj2’s Comment - see below).

[mmmp4cj2]

Certainly in some COPD patients or bronchiectasis patients long term macrolide antibiotics are used. In eosinophilic asthma hallmark mucus of the disease is unfortunately stringy thick mucus - mine can be extremely thick and stringy and almost look like bronchial casts that can be troublesome to cough up- leaving me with inspiratory and expiratory wheeze.

Although requiring steroids 3 times in the last year I have not taken antibiotics once and the prednisolone always does the job. Viruses are more common than bacteria to aggravate an asthma exacerbation. So personally I choose not to take antibiotics and reserve them for when the mucus is very discoloured or I have a high temp etc

I would be interested to hear how your research goes. If you haven't tried a LAMA such as spiriva respimat it may be worth seeing if you can. It can be used as an add on at step 4 of the asthma ladder- there is some evidence it can positively influence mucus production and have modest improvements on lung function . I think the most recent meta analysis give it a safety profile comparable to placebo

[Matman in reply to mmmp4cj2]

Hi mmmphcj2

Thanks for the Comments.

Ref ABs, the notion that they seem ‘not’ to offer a significant benefit to Asthmatics has often caused me to wonder if that’s because Patients are typically given only short courses of them.

I need to understand to what extent prophylactic antibiotics (especially the mycins and Doxycycline) have been the subject of well controlled large studies. Although I’ve read a lot of Asthma Research I can’t immediatelly recall seeing much - if anything - concerning long-term AB Studies.

I would guess that some folk might have recurring ‘Asthma Like’ respiratory symptoms that short courses of ABs (even 2 or 3 Week Courses) only ‘partly’ resolve - leading to recurrence once the reduced Bacteria Community reestablishes itself.

In some cases might that account for the impression that either Oral Steroids, Short-Term ABs (or a Combo of both) had been ‘effective’, whereas they had only subdued infection, rather than irradicated it? This is just speculation, but it would be reassuring to see some ‘Study Facts’ that allowed me to dismiss the idea and ‘move on’ (or - otherwise - embrace it, and see if pursuing Extended AB Treatment delivered a positive result).

Ref LAMAs, though they’d been pretty much dismissed as ineffective via a Cochrane Study a year or two back (or maybe there’s newer data I’ve missed)

Cheers

[mmmp4cj2 in reply to Matman]

Would be interested to see how it goes with the antibiotics. Re LAMAs it was a 2017 review article I was reading- the summary was something along the lines that it may have a role at step 4, excellent safety profile and modest improvement in lung function but more studies needed to determine if this improves quality of life. Should only be used at step 4 i.e. Those with more severe/resistant asthma.

I think we have had the debate before about whether it is the ICS or the LABA that is helping most - i guess the LAMA offers an option to possibly improve lung function and increase time between exacerbations without increasing the steroid load. I personally thought it worth a try. I'm about 3 weeks in -I have felt a modest improvement without any negative side effects.

[Matman in reply to mmmp4cj2]

Good to know the LAMA may be helping. Will look at it again.

BTW the USA Doc who wrote the Asthma Book (with the Antibiotics Theory - mention earlier in this Thread) seems very genuine and pretty smart. The Core Theory (for want of a better Term) is straight-forward to grasp, as is the IgE Argument he supports it with. A number of case studies are included. He is not trying to position it as the solution for all Asthmatics or all types of Asthma.

All in all, well worth a read, time permitting, and (once I’ve read it again to ensure I’m a reasonable match for the ‘profile’) I might well give it a go. The issue might (then) be finding a Private / Doctor or Consultant willing to Prescibe and Support (if the result of the advocated Test fits-in with the Theory). I say ‘Private’ as I’m not altogether sure those following NHS Guidelines would be willing / able to help, due to Prescribing Policy Constraints.

Interestingly, a sort of test option that I’ve inferred from the book, might be to see what happens initially on 3 Weeks of Doxy without any Oral Steroids. (If Asthma clears up for a decent spell, that ‘might’ indicate that the Longer Term A/Mycin AB Treatment suggested by the Book ‘may’ be appropriate). Note, that the outcome - if successful - appears to be ‘Asthma Free’, rather than ‘symptom free’ i.e. cured of Asthma, though you’d still have any Lung Scarring and other legacy damage caused by Asthma.

There are, as always, caveats, so reading the book and speaking to a medical professional first - to ensure that the treatment risks are fully understood ‘up front’ - is essential (so don’t try this at home).

Just so happens the ENT Clinic (coincidentally) prescribed me a 3 Week Course of Doxy, which I’ve delayed taking (as it definitely did not fit in with my - modest - boozing over Christmas) plus I was due to see my Asthma Consultant earlier this month (which has now happened).

[mmmp4cj2 in reply to Matman]

Thanks Matman- will take a look at the details.

[mmmp4cj2 in reply to Matman]

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Pilot study above- might be worth doing a literature search as this is a few years old but certainly showed some promise but small sample size

[mmmp4cj2 in reply to mmmp4cj2]

And this seems to be the follow up...erj.ersjournals.com/content...

[Matman in reply to mmmp4cj2]

Thanks mmmp4cj2

Will take a close look.

[sagittar in reply to mmmp4cj2]

Have other people in healthUnlocked community used doxycycline and have success with their condition? that would be an interesting data....for all of us who have Asthma.

That's why sharing data and info... is so important for all ...Then we can research it further. Thanks for sharing the link...smile.

Sagittar

[Hidden]

I started using a salt inhaler three weeks ago, amongst other things salt is good for helping to control bacteria and I am definitely feeling the benefit which is backed up by improved PF readings.

[Matman]

Never used a Salt Inhaler. Glad to here it could be helping you

[Abc64]

I too am suffering, but I’m also a nurse. The trouble with giving out antibiotics where they may not be necessary makes the bugs resistant to them. That’s why they don’t like giving them out unless it’s necessary. Also, viruses won’t be gotten rid off with antibiotics. That’s why they say to see how you go. If it develops into an infection, they will prescribe antibiotics. Hope this helps.