Chinese herbs

[Bobsterguy]

I've been reading about some Chinese herbs improving AFib. In particular there are some studies re the Chinese herbs Wenxin Keli . Does anyone out there have any experience with Wenxin Keli or any other Chinese herbs to benefit AFib? Chinese herbs have been used for many hundreds of years and I'm wondering where to get good information regarding their benefits for AFib. Thanks in advance for any reply or experience you may provide. Bob C

[Blearyeyed]

There is a big difference between considering these options when you are currently not a diagnosed patient, not on prescribed medications and have stable symptoms, or if you are currently on a prescription and suffering active aFib episodes.This is a point that many alternative health Practitioners and advocates and influencers often neglect to put in big bold type at the top of their comments and suggestions.

Most of the prescribed medications used to control aFib and other cardiac conditions " interact" or are metabolised by the same pathway in the liver as the commonly discussed alternative health herbals and medications.

This causes the issue of your required medications not being absorbed , metabolised and processed properly in the liver, reducing the active effect of your medication , but also , most importantly, causing a build up of medications in your system that cause toxicity and very serious symptoms.

So, even interested researcher's of these alternatives take these things into consideration, and do not suggest stopping your current medications if you require treatment to try out whether a herbal will work for you and advise you to avoid combining the two. They don't want you to be like a medical guinea pig but without the professional support.

They usually test these things on subjects whom are generally healthy first, then check data for patients whom are only using alternative medications with supervised surveys, before finally testing if things work in combination with prescribed drugs , titrating the dose up and using regular rigid blood testing to prevent the risk of someone becoming ill because of a build up in toxicity.

Because of these statistically evidenced interactions you are not recommended to take the supplements that may or may not work for you and prescribed medications together (without this strict supervision and testing), as by doing so , you can cause yourself a higher risk of hypotension ( low blood pressure episodes) , bradycardia (heart rates that are too low), increase your chance of bleeding and bruising, dizziness and fainting, vomiting and bowel issues. and trigger other types of arrhythmia or a new episode of Afib.

Think of it I suppose like purposely over dosing on your meds in the hope they will work better. As we know , they could do their job too well and make you very ill in the process.

We often forget that just because something can be bought over the counter without a prescription that it is still a chemical or drug that can have a significant impact on your body in the same way a prescribed medication can.

Both supplements and Medications are treated in the same way by your body and your body does not distinguish between whether it's a highly processed natural ingredient or a synthesized medication thinks of them both as "drugs".

If your body doesn't like it or doesn't use it effectively, your body doesn't care where you got it from or whom recommended it.

Supplements can cause exactly the same side effects as prescribed medications , especially things like stomach cramps , bowel changes , headaches , joint pain and dizziness, particularly for people with a long time health issue.

It's an important thing to consider , replacing a prescribed drug regime with a herbal alternative.

Especially because unlike the prescribed regime , or more tested diet and lifestyle options , the herbals do not work as consistently on the majority of patients like standard treatments do , and are not as efficient at managing the issues quickly.

Plus, because they are only in the early days of research there is also no specific safety or effective dose rules to go by , or a systematic regime that's been created that is mire likely to work.

Even with careful research , it's hard to be sure which supplement is the best quality option to use and in which combination , even for the professionals whom work with them, and many OTC options can be in doses that are larger than is suitable for use by people whom want to use them to help a current condition in combination with their medicines.

This is the conclusion I've come to after spending a lot of time dealing with my chronic health issues , and researching these alternatives myself by reading the data that's available right now.

I'm not generally healthy , I have the conditions already and they need managing in the best and safest way now.

I do use supplements but only those I know I need and that do not effect the way my essential medications work.

In the past I'd have been inclined to look for other options to prescribed medications but now I've learnt it's best to go with what is most likely to work and wait until there's a more universal and well tested version of natural combinations before I try them , and only then with mainstream professional support. even if those natural options have been available for thousands of years.

The research so far , which can be read in research articles in the "Nutrients" publication online show promise but the researcher's explain that many of the supplement options aren't their yet , some will not do enough to help reduce your risks with ongoing conditions and shouldn't be used as a substitute for recommended medical care and medications. Some don't do much at all , especially not as a Preventative for those whom have the conditions already.

Taking a prescribed medication is a proactive, positive choice for your health needs.

No different than taking a paracetamol for a headache or choosing to take Vitamin D in the winter.

It shouldn't receive the negative image , judgement and stigma it does .

In fact , taking the medications you require to improve your health and your life should come with a badge of honour, it shows you have accepted you have a health need and are sensibly treating it.

[Bobsterguy in reply to Blearyeyed]

TX for input. I have AFib and am taking Eliquis. Also on Rosuvastatin and metropolol for bp. I've read that Wenxin Keli is widely used in China to commonly treat AFib. Don't know much beyond that. Wonder if Chinese may have better approaches? I will be careful & question my cardiologist. Thanks for precautions. Bob C

[Blearyeyed in reply to Bobsterguy]

It's not that they have better approaches , but they are different.Research shows that Chinese medicines can have beneficial effects but the treatments aren't specific and as such getting universal results that can manage a health condition or give a similar level of prevention to our current prescribed medications is hard to replicate .

But that also shows that mixing these herbals with medicines can be very harmful or cause more symptoms if just done by taking guidance from the back of a bottle.

There are no guarantees either that if you tapered off prescribed meds and swapped them for supplements that they would work for you as an individual, or cause less side effects at the high doses required to get the same beneficial results as have been noted in some small scale tests. and mainly only in lab testing .

So , you need to be really committed to choosing the alternative course because it can have just as many issues as the pharmaceutical treatments people tend to want to resist.

The lack of success some people occasionally have on prescribed medications is just as likely to occur because the reasons they occur may not just be because of the active ingredients in the pills.

There is a huge level of trial and error if you are going to follow these alternative options seriously , in some cases with worse side effects, and no firm safety regulations, and the added woe of the herbals not providing the same treatment after all of the experimenting.

You often feel better in the early weeks of doing it . This can be partly the placebo effect of feeling positive about trying it and stopping other tablets that you feel anxious about taking long term, especially if you are doing it as part of a patient or friend group with active encouragement.

And partly, because the supplement may be helping your general health providing some nutrition you didn't realise was missing in your current diet , but may not really be doing much to treat or prevent the condition you were taking it for.

It can take months before the symptoms show themselves again , especially if you were previously taking prescribed medications and still having an effect on your system before total elimination from the body.

And , it's always weeks or months before the early beneficial effects of a supplement occur , or, get overbalanced by their toxic effect of being combined with other medications.

Which it's why it's so important to make the decision with regulated professionals and supervision and get regular testing to prove it's effectiveness.

Often this is not available on the Health Service , not because they oppose alternatives , but because they cannot conscientiously offer these until they have been proved safe and if any universal use.

This proof takes time , and often early wonder supplements discussed in the press just fail under testing , at worse getting debunked .

So this sort of safe trial of properly calculated supplemental methods becomes a privilege only accessible to those whom can afford high quality private practitioners, which can still see patients requiring to turn back to getting the majority of their treatment from mainstream drugs in the end.

Anyone whom states that they just stopped medications and started a specialised diet whilst taking herbal and supplemental pills and instantly turned their health around, or have found a long term cure, is not being truthful , either to others or themselves , or they may not realise that problems are being stored up for the future because they are mainly asymptomatic. Like cheering before the fat lady sings.

I'd love to just be able to buy supplements from the shelf , or buy a special medicinal tea or use exercise and other therapies alone and get the same results , but the truth is , it isn't that easy and if your illness is long term isn't necessarily the safe natural solution everyone is searching for either.

Take it from someone whom acted like her own guinea pig for decades with various lifetime conditions, especially in the early years when I really desperately wanted to do anything but taking pills or accept with positivity having an illness for Life . I'm not narrow-minded , I'm the opposite in fact. I'm just realistic after years of experience .

Take care and thanks for the post these discussions are always interesting, Bee

[JOY2THEWORLD49 in reply to Bobsterguy]

Hi

How much metopolol?

It left. me on 185bpm day and pauses at night confirmed on a 24hr Heart monitor.

I won't be touching it.

Changed to Bisoprolol 156 bpm but 2.5 mg controls BP.

Given Diltiazem CCB which controlled bpm to 60s.

cheri JOY. 75. (NZ)

[Bobsterguy in reply to JOY2THEWORLD49]

Tx

[Autumn_Leaves in reply to Bobsterguy]

The evidence apppears to be uncertain and some of the studies deemed to be low quality, so it’s definitely a case of “the jury is out” on this one. The herb itself may be generally safe but as Blearyeyed says, you need to be exceptionally careful about what herbs and supplements you take when you are already taking long term prescription medication.

You always need to know your “why” when choosing a course of action. Is your AF well-controlled or is it progressing? Are you having difficulties with your present medication? If so, you need to discuss this with your cardiologist or whoever is responsible for prescribing the medication. Or is it a case of “I read somewhere that …” or a belief that medicine =bad and supplements/herbs =natural/good? If so, you really need to question what your motivations are and what you want to achieve.

Herbal medicines can be potent and can have side effects, and buying these products over the counter can be the equivalent of taking an unregulated pharmaceutical, so you need to bear that in mind. It’s not the equivalent of adding a bit of oregano to your cooking! These can be potent substances. If anything has an effect — that is, has an effect on your physiology and metabolism — there’s also the potential for side effects. It’s naive to believe that it it’s natural that it can’t do any harm. Liver toxicity from taking unregulated herbs and supplements is well-documented particularly in the US. Part of the problem is that herbal supplements can be adulterated with other substances that are not listed on the packaging. So you need to be very certain about what you’re taking and whether it’s been properly tested.

It’s entirely your decision on whether to take herbal medicines or any kind of supplement. Like Blearyeyed I have other health issues besides AF and I’ve explored various alternatives which turned out to have very little, if any, positive impact on my health. I prefer to stick with the basics of sleep and stress management, eating well and incorporating movement as best I can. It’s certainly not “doing nothing”, it requires being intentional and consistent. I’ve witnessed many people chasing their tails in the belief that somebody somewhere has a little trick up their sleeve that’s going to magically reverse their health problems but sadly there never is.

[Bobsterguy in reply to Autumn_Leaves]

Tx

[Ilovedogs12 in reply to Autumn_Leaves]

That's an excellent reply 👍

[JOY2THEWORLD49]

Hi

Only heard of PINK RICE as an anti-co.agulant.

There's garlic to.

cheri JOY. 75. (NZ)

[1861]

67 Male Diagnosed with CAD, Ischemic Cardiomyopathy, Heart Failure, Paroxysmal afib.

Been using WK, (Wenxin Keli) for 3 years Had 1 AFIB episode since, following the death of a close family member. WK is a game changer. I used the following dosage: 3 packets per day for 30 days then 1 packet per day maintenance

[Tomred in reply to 1861]

Hi 1861, where did you source the Wenxin Keli from,are you in uk, also how often did you have bouts of afib before using, also is it expensive, thanks. ps regarding dosage how many mg per day.

[1861 in reply to Tomred]

I live in the US. You can source WK online. The product comes boxed with either 9, 5 gram packets or 18, 5 gram packets. Again I initially used three packets per day morning, lunch, evening for 30 days. I use 1 packet a day for maintenance. I do take other meds, eliquis, plavix, sotalol, (fear factor). Prior to WK, I was in AFIB typically three to four episodes per month, each episode lasting one to two days with heart rate in the 140's, totally debilitating. I also do a Linus Pauling therapy, high dose vitamin c, lysine, proline.

[Tomred in reply to 1861]

Thank you , i will suss it out here in Ireland.

[Blearyeyed in reply to 1861]

But were you also taking prescribed medication at the time , and do you get supervision by a Practitioner and your GP? Do you still need prescribed medication now , and what other herbals do you use....I know that WK isn't usually given alone by a Chinese specialist?

Have you had a check up or any scans since with a cardiologist to prove how well it's doing?

I think the original poster needs to know this .

[Autumn_Leaves in reply to Blearyeyed]

That’s a very important point,  Blearyeyed . Symptoms are one part of the overall picture, but there are other aspects of cardiac health that may not produce any symptoms until a condition has progressed. Cardiomyopathy and heart failure can be assessed by imaging such as an echocardiogram or MRI, certain parameters of cardiac function are measured and can be compared with previous scans. That’s the only way of knowing whether the condition is stable, progressing or improving. Severity and frequency of AF may track with these changes, but often there’s no correlation. From the patient’s perspective it’s the symptoms that impact on our quality of life and peace of mind, but we also have to be wary of the more silent conditions. It’s important not to be lulled into a false sense of security.

[Bobsterguy]

Thanks..🙂

[108cat]

I'll ask my acupuncturist on Thursday about Wenxin Keli.

As already vigorously pointed out - herbal meds can have powerful effects and can also interact with allopathic medicines so it's good to be cautious. I feel it's important to consult an experienced Chinese medical practitioner or Acupuncturist and if he/she is open to it, keep your cardiologist in the loop.

Traditional Chinese medicine is subtle, sophisticated, and tried and tested but it does depend on the practitioner. British Acupuncture Council or the British Medical Acupunture Society would be reliable places to look. Practitioners generally need to have had a 3 year training to join

I'm having acupuncture treatment and Chinese medicine for Afib and I'm grateful and increasingly hopeful about it. My cardiologist is supportive, I am also on Edoxaban and have PIP Flecainide but try to only use that when natural techniques fail ...

all the best ...

[Tako2009]

Hi Bobsterguy. I am/was also a fan of Chinese Herbal medicine having used it in the past (pre AF diagnosis ) where it successfully reduced my BP without extra medication. But with AF I would urge caution- extreme caution- I consulted a very reputable TCM practitioner to try and reduce my reliance on Flecainide- but the herbal medicine I was prescribed triggered a major AF episode lasting several days and possibly conflicting with the medication prescribed for me by my EP. If you have already been diagnosed with AF and taking western meds, my advice would be to steer clear of TCM.