One of the things that those who are not going to have any more vaccines and those who are can agree on, hopefully, is that it’s now difficult to get information on which to base an informed decision. There seems to be quite a lot of uncertainty concerning how effective the vaccine is in protecting against new variants and also on how long it affords protection. I’m probably going to have the vaccine, but I feel there should be much more information for, particularly, AF patients from the NHS.
Difficulties making an informed decis... - Atrial Fibrillati...
Difficulties making an informed decision on Covid vaccines.
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Samazeuilh2
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I think they’ve got their fingers crossed, same as me! I hope it’s effective, I hope there are no bad side effects for me, but I can’t be sure and I’m pretty sure the medics aren’t sure either…..
This highly qualified medic is sure and testified accordingly before the European Parliament in Strasbourg last week twitter.com/P_McCulloughMD/...
I met him last night in Bath and won't be having any mRNA jabs.
I have no axe to grind one way or the other about jabs but just, genuinely, wondered why you think this guy is any more qualified or eminent than any other highly qualified or eminent medic who may offer a different opinion?
Good question, for sure there is little you can be certain about these days!
This guy told us last night, those medics that hold an opposite view, not one, have ever come out and challenged him in a scientific debate. The ones you are thinking about hide usually behind Big Pharma screens & government and prefer to make impersonal comments.
I have followed the debate for several years now and you see a pattern developing and whatever you believe in, it is fine as long as there is no coercion to compel others against their will.
I wasn't actually thinking of anyone else in particular, just interested in why we perceive one person more trustworthy or knowledgeable than another equally qualified expert.It is a minefield, not just with this but other issues in life as well and I'm fascinated as to what makes folk decide one way or another. However, I do worry when people make life decisions based on what Chanel on Facebook says 😁.......... apologies to any Chanels on the forum 😄.
Dr. McCullough is the most published cardiologist in the world.
dont have twitter, so cant see article, can you give brief review on what he said, my AF and LBBB started after pfizer booster, even medics not denying this now, even though cant prove it
BobDVolunteer
This situation has existed for many years with the annual flu jabs so what is so different? A few years ago they got it completely wrong and a different strain appeared. S**t happens.
IMHO any protection is better than none. Rather than expecting " government" to make decisions for us we need to be pro-active, make a choice and live with it.
I don’t want the government to make a choice for anyone; I’m arguing that it should provide accurate and up-to-date information on which an informed choice can be made. We are able to make informed choices on, for example, smoking and drinking because we have that sort of information available.
Unfortunately the ONS Covid surveillance ended in March, testing is no longer free and there is no longer any requirement for people to report their test results. We’re now living in the post-Covid era. The “government” expect us all to proceed at our own risk. Vaccination is always a choice, which we accept or not, assuming that it’s offered in the first place. Most of the population will not be offered the vaccine at all, including many people with medical conditions not deemed to put them at risk of severe Covid (ie requiring hospital treatment).
Expecting the “government” to provide detailed information for a set of patients with a specific diagnosis is a big ask, especially from this lot who have a laissez-faire attitude to public health anyway. The best thing you could do is try ringing one of the cardiac/arrhythmia nurses if you have access to them at wherever you are treated and talk over your concerns. They may not be in any position to say anything other than the official guidelines, but if you have specific fears or worries at least you might find someone to talk it over with.
I rang the nurses a while ago. They said they couldn’t advise on whether the vaccine was effective against the new variants (some sources say not) or how long it might be effective for. No new information on the vaccine and AF other than to say plenty of patients had said it had worsened/ started after vaccination. The point is it would be useful to have accurate information on these topics. We have information on alcohol so that we know how much it’s safe to drink etc...Why not with this?
Latest info on alcohol is that there’s no safe level……
Yes, that’s correct. But we still need information on *how* risky a given level is. If I drink a glass of wine once a week the risk is minimal, but if I drink a bottle daily the risk is considerable.
Alcohol has been around a lot longer than Covid and Covid vaccines, and has been studied for decades. Comparing Covid vaccines with alcohol consumption (or smoking) is like comparing apples with oranges, as the saying goes. Even with the Covid virus itself, the long term impacts on the health of those infected is still unknown. It’s only been 3-4 years. How long have the impacts of cigarettes and alcohol been studied?
The problem with Covid vaccines, as with flu vaccines, is that they can only be a best guess as respiratory viruses of all kinds are constantly mutating and whatever vaccines are produced to protect against respiratory viruses, the level of protection wanes after several months. It’s an inherent characteristic of respiratory viruses. I don’t know whether you’ve had Covid already but if you have then at least you have some idea of how your body will deal with the virus. This is all we can go on. The knowledge bank you feel “should” be available to you doesn’t actually exist because we are still living with a lot of uncertainty. Until you are infected, you won’t know how serious (or not) it will be, and even then it’s not always predictable. As I said previously, the majority of the population are not eligible for a Covid vaccine. I’m not eligible. People are expected to “get on with it” and proceed at their own risk. That’s the world we live in, unfortunately.
”Alcohol has been around a lot longer than Covid and Covid vaccines, and has been studied for decades. Comparing Covid vaccines with alcohol consumption (or smoking) is like comparing apples with oranges, as the saying goes”
The comparison was not between alcohol consumption and Covid vaccines; I compared the amount of information which was available to patients in relation to these- in the former case they have a great deal of information to go on, in the latter very little.
Whilst Covid and Covid vaccines, unlike alcohol, have not been around for very long, it doesn’t follow that at least some accurate information could not be provided about Covid vaccines on which a decision could be based.
“Even with the Covid virus itself, the long term impacts on the health of those infected is still unknown. It’s only been 3-4 years. How long have the impacts of cigarettes and alcohol been studied?”
The long term impact of the Covid virus is only one consideration which confronts the individual deciding whether to have the vaccine. I mentioned some of the others, e.g. for how long will the new vaccine provide protection? Will it offer any protection against new variants? What information is available on the MRNA vaccines and AF? If the answers are not known to these question, it’s acceptable for doctors to say that. But they should at least make available what they do know-that’s not the case at the moment, or st least this information is more difficult to obtain than it should be.
“I don’t know whether you’ve had Covid already but if you have then at least you have some idea of how your body will deal with the virus. This is all we can go on. The knowledge bank you feel “should” be available to you doesn’t actually exist because we are still living with a lot of uncertainty. Until you are infected, you won’t know how serious (or not) it will be, and even then it’s not always predictable. As I said previously, the majority of the population are not eligible for a Covid vaccine. I’m not eligible. People are expected to “get on with it” and proceed at their own risk. That’s the world we live in, unfortunately.”
I haven’t had Covid so far (at least to my knowledge) so I don’t know how I would react. I was told very early on by a GP that contracting Covid with AF is potentially more serious than it is for someone who doesn’t have AF; there has been some debate concerning whether those with AF should be categorised as “vulnerable”. I’m not asking doctors how I would react-they cannot possibly know- but to provide the best information they have available. There is now a great deal of information available about Covid, new variants etc. and this could be more widely disseminated. I don’t think “getting on with it” is acceptable as health advice from government- they gave a responsibility to look after the health of the population. It’s clear that they have not made a very good job of this so far.
There is information made available; the chance of an acute adverse reaction to the vaccine is vanishingly small. It will be years however before more subtle or chronic adverse reactions can be known.
There aren’t any leaflets you can pick up at your GP practice that say “just get on with it” but that’s essentially it. Covid vaccines are provided on the NHS for those deemed the most vulnerable to severe and critical Covid illness. We don’t have any public health guidelines about masking, social distancing, indoor ventilation etc. It may not be acceptable to many people but we’re now expected to “live with Covid” and expect to be infected. We don’t even know how many people have Covid right now, and since tests are no longer free, there are plenty of people who come down with Covid and don’t even test so they don’t know if it’s Covid or if it’s flu. So where all this detailed information is going to come from about BA.2.86, I don’t know. If someone comes down with Covid, they can’t report it any more.
”We don’t even know how many people have Covid right now, and since tests are no longer free, there are plenty of people who come down with Covid and don’t even test so they don’t know if it’s Covid or if it’s flu. So where all this detailed information is going to come from about BA.2.86, I don’t know. If someone comes down with Covid, they can’t report it any more.”
Well yes, information and testing are currently lacking in the UK. I don’t see why that state of affairs should not be challenged, however. Nothing will change unless the public adopt a less passive attitude. My central point is that patients should have the best information available on which to base an informed decision. I don’t agree that providing such information is unreasonable or unaffordable. Nor is the case that it doesn’t exist.
I agree with the gist of what you’re saying, but the other part of that is how willing are the public to self-report their Covid test results, and even it requires people to buy a test kit. I know that for now hospitals test all inpatients, even as day patients (as opposed to outpatients who aren’t routinely tested) and that they use PCR tests. I presume that a certain percentage of positive tests will be sequenced to identify which strains are in circulation. So yes, there is data but we’re also missing a lot of data now.
Yawn...If Covid was killing 30% of all who caught it or that the last pandemic was Ebola, you all would be lining up for the vaccines and complaining that the government was not moving fast enough. It is all about perspective...get some.
Perspective is important in understanding any situation, but it's equally vital to base perspective on accurate information. My concern is about having enough information to make an informed decision regarding the Covid vaccine. Having more information can help build trust and encourage vaccination among those who may have concerns. Comparing COVID to Ebola isn’t accurate: The former caused a global pandemic and led to a significant loss of life. Ebola, on the other hand, is a highly lethal but relatively contained virus, primarily affecting specific regions. The dynamics of Ebola and COVID are not directly comparable due to their distinct characteristics and impacts.
Interesting you say you are not eligible for the vaccine. I am 62 and have been called up presumably because of the AF which the NHS website specifically mentions as a putting people in a priority group for Covid vaccines. And as I have had all the previous vaccines, and Covid twice, I will definitely be having it.
I’ve not been invited this year. Two GPs at my practice have said PAF does not put me at risk of severe Covid. The green book appears to suggest otherwise. It’s confusing.
The very point I’m making!
Apparently the new jab protects against new variants according to the BBC. 😊
I am in persistent AF, waiting for an ablation. I am booked in for a COVID jab at the beginning of October, but would really like to know which vaccine we will be having, and whether it will actually be protective against the newest variant.
According to this Time article BA.2.86 (not currently the dominant variant) might be problematic: time.com/6308418/ba-2-86-co...
lol
Hi
In NZ I received texts from our main hospital to have mine. They know I had a stroke with AF and Thyroid cancer which caused it removed.
I go armed with a banana and plenty of water. We have to wait 20mins before we could leave.
I have had 5 which includes the Omicron deterrent.
cheri JOY. 74. (NZ)
I agree - it's a devil of a job to find out exactly what benefit the booster will offer. However, it is known that it does increase useful antibodies, and does so safely, so it will stop us from getting the severe form of covid and needing oxygen and hospitalisation.
The problem nowadays, I've come to believe, is that the online communities of FB and elsewhere have brought us to fear something that is, essentially, not fearful.
I do believe that the vaccine is generally very safe. I know a great number of people who have had it and I know of none that have had any important problem with it. In contrast, I know a few people who are still struggling with effects from covid itself, one who is permanently afflicted with kidney failure, one with a "shadow" on his lung and possibly heart, and one with a small amount of permanent lung scarring. A fourth just might have received thyroid damage from her covid, but that isn't certain and two others had unusual autoimmune diseases that might be linked to their having had covid but there is no certainty.
Now, my brother is an anti-vaxxer and a general believer in conspiracy theories; as is his FB friend. Between them, they claim to know dozens of people who have become very ill from the vaccine and remain ill still. But I know - for certain - that my brother doesn't truly "know" those people. I imagine he has had conversations with some who are of a similar cynical mind to his and who tell him of people they "know"; but my brother cannot physically take me to a single person who is still suffering, and we are both local people. In contrast, he could, in fact, take me to one who suffered a little from covid itself and who still fears her heart has been damaged by it - that is his daughter. But he discounts her. How odd this conspiracy mindset is.
Yesterday, I was due a shingles injection, and I put that off as I have a bit of a cold and, truthfully, had become a little worried about side effects partly from online information I had read and partly because of my brother. In truth, I am sure that I needn't have been worried at all, but, added to my fears, we have to look after our grandchild today and I didn't want to be off colour or whatever. In reality, I should have had the shot and, before all this online stuff about the covid vaccine, would have done so without a second thought.
In some senses, then, despite my careful gathering of "information", I was not, in fact, "better informed" since the online information I had gleaned was either wrong, or irrelevant.
We are in different times.
Steve
That’s a very interesting description of the way that we are affected by exposure to rumour and misinformation, even though we know in our minds it’s not accurate information by any means.
The influence of social media is beginning to bother me. I think it is pernicious and creating divisions where, previously, none existed.
One thing I have concluded in my experience with my brother is that rational argument cannot be used with anyone who has derived their own conclusions irrationally. He thinks he is an expert and that I am a dupe of the deep state, so there were are. 😳
Steve
That attitude is so infuriating! As if people who accepted the vaccine are somehow incapable of having made their own decision based on the available evidence. The other one is that we are all zombies following government commands! I never voted for that lot in the first place so I’m hardly likely to be “following them blindly” or whatever. The funny thing is that those people are often just parroting phrases that are repeated ad nauseum on the antivax social media channels, it’s the same words, same phrases, over and over. The fact that we aren’t in lockdowns, that the majority of the population are not eligible for the Covid vaccine and that there are no requirements for masking, social distancing etc is completely lost on these people. The antivax influencers are just keeping it all going because they don’t want to lose their lucrative advertising revenue, subscriptions etc, so they keep churning it out. They really should get over themselves. The world has moved on.
My suspicion is that there is a financial aspect to it all. Money (over £100k last year, in the case of one well known individual) is made from the advertising placed on the blogs and YouTube “channels” that are so adored by many conspiracy believers.
The free-thinking folk are the ones labelled as “sheeple”, or so it seems to me.
Steve
My thoughts exactly! The people who like to believe they are “doing their own research” (ie watching these YouTube channels) are just there to enable the revenue to keep flowing. At the very minimum it’s eyeballs on ads, but there are also paid subscriptions for additional content such as on Substack, “conferences” and talks which require tickets and pay-per-view recordings of the various lectures and talks for the people who can’t attend in person, some sell quite expensive supplements and others offered telehealth consultations that issued private prescriptions for the anti-helminthic drug that can’t treat or prevent Covid. The bigger the audience the bigger the advertising revenue, and a proportion of those people will pay to access more of the content. I think Taylor Swift or Beyoncé would be a lot more entertaining, enjoyable and a vast improvement as far as intellectual stimulation is concerned. After all, these girls ARE the social commentators of our time! And be honest here, who would you rather look at? John Campbell? 🤣
Spot on. I hadn’t realised until recently just what sums can be made from YouTube. The FB friend of my brother’s, a prophet of the coming New World Order, actually writes for Icke, I saw on Icke’s website. Well, that explains a lot as to why he’s often overly ardent, as it were. There’s money in every convert.
It’s time the scales fell from a few eyes. I wonder if it ever will though as the mindset is an extraordinarily stubborn one.
Steve
When you consider the millions of subscribers and followers these people have, and the number of times certain videos have been viewed, all those pennies add up to a very significant income for the owner of the channel, and even if a relatively small percentage sign up to subscription services, a small percentage of millions of followers is still going to bring in sizeable sum. We don’t have lockdowns, we don’t have vaccine passports, we don’t have to scan Q codes on our phones if we go to a cafe, we don’t have free Covid tests, we don’t have vaccines for the general population under the age of 65. Yet we still have the same characters recycling the same old conspiracy narratives and medical misinformation. It’s like Groundhog Day. These influencer characters do not care about the people who follow them. They exist to create wealth for THEM. And that’s it. Their content is predictable and cliched, and if it’s factually inaccurate, so what? As long as it gets the eyeball time, it puts money in the bank. People fall for it, some people anyway.
The irony is that those who are duped believe we are the gulled ones. It’s really quite a feat to have achieved this and the zeal of the convert is nigh on religious in some.
The Russell Brand saga might yet open a few eyes - although it will cause many of his loyal cadre to squeeze theirs even more tightly shot
Steve
I’ve always had quite a visceral dislike of Russell Brand and why anyone would want to watch his channel or even go to see him live is something I can’t fathom. He’s always creeped me out. He uses all this long winded flowery language to say absolutely nothing. Apparently his followers believe he’s being silenced for “telling the truth” 🤣🤣🤣
So true, my sentiments exactly.
Yes, the same - a truly awful character. His language is a give away for me (I was an English teacher!). It’s a kind of “hypercorrection” gone wild but I think he found that it impressed and attracted a particular kind of audience.
Steve
I find it so vacuous. There’s nothing actually said, it’s all for the listener to ascribe their own meaning and interpretation. All you have to do is chuck in a few keywords like “mainstream media” or “the elite” as a way of throwing a few doggie treats to the audience. I find it completely laughable his supporters are saying “they” are trying to shut him down for talking complete rubbish. I don’t think anyone cares about his conspiratorial delusions, only his followers.
Do you question the detail of every piece of medication you have, and require details of how each medication might effect you? I really don't think the NHS or private sector hospitals have the resources for detailed guidance on the effectiveness of pills and jabs
As I've said before there is no standard human body. Who knew when I was prescribed Rivaroxaban that I would react badly to it, so bad that my body itself rejected it by inflaming my muscles, giving me Polymyalgia Rheumatica, which I had for 4 years. Who knew that I'd get urticaria from Bisoprolol or the very rare side effect of sudden onset of narrowing of my lung tubes. A very bad attack of asthma. Fortunately I was in a pharmacy at the time. An ambulance was called and I was in hospital for 3 days. As for jabs, I had the Shingles jab, and pneumonia jabs without detailed information of how they could effect me.
Like all jabs,I have to trust the medics that they will do their best to give me the best possible flu and covid jabs.
If we insist on information about how good they might be for the average AF sufferer, I would still need to know how good they are for the average asthmatic, the average person with lower leg lymphoedema, the average person with right Foot Drop, and the average man with BPH. I really do think that would be a waste of resources.
”Do you question the detail of every piece of medication you have, and require details of how each medication might effect you? I really don't think the NHS or private sector hospitals have the resources for detailed guidance on the effectiveness of pills and jabs.”
I don’t question every medication, but I seek information particularly when I have reason to believe a medication may produce undesirable side effects. I don’t think that providing such information is unduly demanding in terms of resources.
““If we insist on information about how good they might be for the average AF sufferer, I would still need to know how good they are for the average asthmatic, the average person with lower leg lymphoedema, the average person with right Foot Drop, and the average man with BPH. I really do think that would be a waste of resources.”
There are a variety of reasons why it’s reasonable for patients to be given the sort of information I am requesting . First, they have the right to make informed decisions about their healthcare. Second, awareness of possible side effects helps patients monitor their health- they can recognize and report any adverse effects to their provider. And providing information fosters trust between patients, healthcare providers, and drug companies which is likely beneficial for all three.
You made many good points. Bad luck on those drug issues. PR is what one friend came down with and it seems likely it was the Covid he’d had that eventually led to it. The craziest thing was that his GP diagnosed it only over the phone, even putting him on prednisone without a personal consultation. That GP needs a good talking to.
Steve
Thanks. My PR took 5 weeks of pains to diagnose. After many blood tests I had one for Erythrocyte sedimentation rate, which showed that as a normal man in my late 60s age it should have read about 20-25, it was 130, which was a high rate of muscle inflammation.My doctors were very good and didn't pressurise me to reduce my use of prednisolone at a particular rate. They said that I knew how I felt, and they supplied 3-5 month's supply of prednisolone at a time I used the dead slow, nearly stop method of reduction which took just under four years. That included about three months of being stuck on 5mg. The Health Unlocked PMR discussion group helped greatly.
Had my booster yesterday. So far so good! Never had Covid ( famous last words!)hasn’t affected my AF.
I will always remember all the guidelines given to the masses and how to behave whenever those privy, presumably, to the latest information and how deadly things might be decided to have some parties in government gardens.
My neighbours had parties during lockdown. Many people in my immediate area did. Whether or not my neighbours or anyone else had parties, and whether they were supposed to or not, it makes no difference whatsoever to my healthcare decisions.
happy for you autumn leaves
I see all these comments coming from Brits. I thought it was only the Maggot people in the US who were so against getting the vaccine. If you would rather take your chances with Covid, then do so, but then stay inside and away from the rest of us! As someone who has had the vaccine, and also had a fairly mild case of Covid. I will gladly line up for the new jab! I don't want to go thru that ever again, as long as there is something that can help it be milder.
I’m not arguing against taking the vaccine. I’ve had mine. I’m just arguing for better quality information. I’d be interested to know what information is available to patients in Germany about to take a vaccination now. Are they told about how long it might be effective, whether it will deal with BA.2.86, will affect AF etc.?
I agree, solid information is always a good thing when making any decision. But as for whether the updated boosters will help with the newly emerged ba2.86, I think we’re in a wait and see situation. BA2.86 is still too new and we still don’t know how widespread it’s going to be. Given that the boosters give our T-cells a bit of a kick in the pants, I’ll be getting my next booster.
An interesting article about tcells and Covid vax. med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...
What are “maggot people”?
Is there any information regarding countries (I believe Sweden is one,) where they went for the 'herd immunity 'option. ?I live in South Africa and I think unintentionally, that is the situation here ,since the uptake among the mass of the population , for various reasons, was very poor. Covid is hardly ever mentioned and most of the stations giving the vaccine , have closed.
I am sure that the results from Sweden must be available somewhere? Though pretty sure they also took on the vaccine later - but I may be wrong.
They caused me to start having heart palpitations. I had to take daily Taurine to resolve the problem. Go to flccc.com
Its truly amazing how they reported this new variant on the loose and the following week, a vaccine for this very variant is now on Sale!! All other vaccines don't work for this new variant. Only the one they managed to make, very quickly indeed!! Now I wonder how much this new vax has been tested if it was made this quick
As far as I’m aware, a vaccine for BA.2.86 doesn’t exist.
I don’t think anyone knows to be honest.?
The only thing I focus on is vaccines prevent hospitalisation and death. For that reason I’ve had all vaccines offered and each time opted for a different brand. Astra, Pfizer, Moderna and hope to get my hands on Novavax for my next one. I haven’t contracted Covid thus far and sure hope it stays that way. My 91-year-old mum had a fall at home and had to go to a rehab hospital where she contracted Covid. They couldn’t work out what she had as the RAT tests didn’t pick it up. It took them too long to do a PCR and so too late to give her antivirals. She’s so sick. You wouldn’t wish Covid on anyone.
I think it is definitely worth having the vaccine if you can but it's up to you. Each person must decide - I agree that there is not a lot of good information out there and a lot of bad. I personally have had no problems with any of the vaccines and luckily when I caught Covid it was mild but still left me fatigued. Therefore I will continue to have the vaccines as they become available. I know of no one with problems from the vaccine but plenty with problems from having Covid. My neighbour's daughter in her early 50's has not been able to work since she had Covid early on in the pandemic and is awaiting a lung transplant due to the after effects of Covid - and cannot even walk around her own home with out becoming breathless. My Sister also has long covid and has been very ill and, when she could finally go back to work has had to go to part time working and a day at work leaves her absolutely exhausted. I am hopeful that the vaccines will stop Covid being so bad and will also stop the spread so that fewer people catch it and it leaves fewer people with Long Covid. We really don't want to have to go back to lockdowns where we were hardly able to access our GP's and all the chaos that brought about and the longer waiting lists for operations etc. Out of respect for my NHS I wear a mask when attending my GP surgery and hospital appointments as I would hate to be the one who brought either Covid or anything else to them and caused them to be ill and require sick leave when it could be avoided.
There's a reason information is slow to come by, because it is still being invented. This whole debacle is so political that taking future COVID vaccines will only indicate a willingness to obey an authoritarian government as will be wearing masks, which help less than the vaccines do. Many years ago conventions of world leaders agreed that the best plan for pandemics were to be the least disruptive of society. When the present would-be-dictators took this disaster and used it to their advantage, school, work, person+to-person interaction, religious practice and other important aspects of everyday life were intentionally prevented, in an effort to make Americans dependent on an all-powerful- government, while the forces of racial strife and nonbiological unreal delusions were turned loose to wreak their own havoc and divide Americans. Our Justice System hides their favored from prosecutions for a lifetime of criminality.. Organized medicine now agrees that men can have babies, not because it's true, but because it shows a dedication to a Narrative of political authoritarianism, which is more important. Has anyone heard of the recent discovery of over 120,000 COVID deaths of those vaccinated, done to obfuscate the ineffectiveness of these vaccines? I no longer trust organized medicine because they no longer serve science and patient care as masters, but a global narrative to reshape American into Communist Russia. Is this how Kamala Harris' talk of "limiting the population" will be carried out, by an ineffective or dangerous forced vaccination policy?
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